First Church Orthodox or Catholic?

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
reputable source?

On The Essence And Energies Of God · Preachers Institute

1 John 5:7-8
7 because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
8 and three are who are testifying in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

Q: If the Spirit exists in both Heaven as an essence, and yet reaches to and interacts with earth as an energy...

how would that affect this issue?

essence and energy are of the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person.

Erik Nelson · Mar 9, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
Cappadocians and Chalcedon that basically hammered out hypostasis=prosopon=person=subsistence, and ousia=nature=essence=substance.

ArmyMatt said:
essence and energy are of the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person.

The divine NATURE of the Godhead is the divine ESSENCE of the same?

The energies somehow reach from the remote divine nature and essence in heaven. Into created reality on Earth?

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
The divine NATURE of the Godhead is the divine ESSENCE of the same?

The energies somehow reach from the remote divine nature and essence in heaven. Into created reality on Earth?

sorta. nature is a broader term. so in St Peter's epistle, when it says we partake of the Divine Nature, what he is referring to is the energies.

Erik Nelson · Mar 9, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
sorta. nature is a broader term. so in St Peter's epistle, when it says we partake of the Divine Nature, what he is referring to is the energies.

We perceive the divine energy as grace?

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
We perceive the divine energy as grace?

Divine Energy is grace

Erik Nelson · Mar 9, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
Divine Energy is grace

singular? How many divine energies exist?

ArmyMatt · Mar 9, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
singular? How many divine energies exist?

if it's Divine it can't be quantified

Erik Nelson · Mar 10, 2019

Don't really understand this entirely yet it sounds authoritative

RobNJ · Mar 10, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Don't really understand this entirely yet it sounds authoritative

Personally, i would have moved along, quickly, as soon as I saw who did the video. I make it a point NOT to look to a conspiracy theorist whacko, for theological insights.

ArmyMatt · Mar 10, 2019

I would say start with the 6th Ecumenical Council, and then go to St Gregory Palamas.

Erik Nelson · Mar 10, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I would say start with the 6th Ecumenical Council, and then go to St Gregory Palamas.

https://taylormarshall.com/2010/01/saint-basil-on-essenceenergy.html

seems to be scholarly discussion and in depth.

If only a few 100 people on the planet actually care about these nitty gritty details. Why is it hundreds of millions of people can turn them into points of dispute??

ArmyMatt · Mar 10, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
https://taylormarshall.com/2010/01/saint-basil-on-essenceenergy.html

seems to be scholarly discussion and in depth.

If only a few 100 people on the planet actually care about these nitty gritty details. Why is it hundreds of millions of people can turn them into points of dispute??

because folks love opinion more than fact. this author neglects that St Gregory also teaches that the distinction doesn't violate God's oneness, any more than the Three Persons do. energy is natural, so if the Divine Nature is single and infinite, the energies are as well.

SingularityOne · Mar 10, 2019

RobNJ said:
Personally, i would have moved along, quickly, as soon as I saw who did the video. I make it a point NOT to look to a conspiracy theorist whacko, for theological insights.

His videos are actually very solid in the area of philosophy and theology.

RobNJ · Mar 10, 2019

SingularityOne said:
His videos are actually very solid in the area of philosophy and theology.

I've heard that claim before.. But, I can't imagine the best place to "pan for gold", being a sewer.

SingularityOne · Mar 10, 2019

RobNJ said:
I've heard that claim before.. But, I can't imagine the best place to "pan for gold", being a sewer.

Not sure why you would consider his content a “sewer”. Could you elaborate why you have come to that conclusion?

RobNJ · Mar 10, 2019

SingularityOne said:
Not sure why you would consider his content a “sewer”. Could you elaborate why you have come to that conclusion?

All of his conspiracy theory dreck, that's flooding his youtube channel

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

RobNJ said:
All of his conspiracy theory dreck, that's flooding his youtube channel

I'm wary of conspiratorial thinking myself, but he's right about one thing.. but the Church itself already condemns it too: Namely, Freemasonry. The power of Freemasonry in Western nations is real, evil, and not a conspiracy. And they're teaching the same trash the Gnostics once did. It's the same old enemy all over again. And it's scary to think that the Apostle John warned us of Docetists (a proto-Gnostic sect) and how they are the spirit of antichrist already "in the world". In his day, they were small and still repulsed him. And now we're dealing with similar knuckleheads running the world.

SingularityOne · Mar 10, 2019

RobNJ said:
All of his conspiracy theory dreck, that's flooding his youtube channel

I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hear you though. I think life is lived more in the grey (not the black and white). It definitely takes some descernment. I would go to the Church Fathers first, but he references a multitude of Church Fathers in his theology talks, so that’s why I tend to think his theology is on point. His background in in philosophy as well, so I think he knows his stuff there as well. All of the other things he says... I’m skeptical of, but I don’t just take everything he says and discount it.

Erik Nelson · Mar 10, 2019

?

ArmyMatt said:
because folks love opinion more than fact. this author neglects that St Gregory also teaches that the distinction doesn't violate God's oneness, any more than the Three Persons do. energy is natural, so if the Divine Nature is single and infinite, the energies are as well.

EWTN.com - Eastern Orthodox Essence-Energies Distinction

Eastern Orthodox Essence-Energies Distinction…

'Catholic philosopher and blogger Dr. Michael Liccione argues that the Essence-Energies Distinction, as expounded by St. Gregory Palamas, is true and is compatible with the Catholic dogma of absolute divine simplicity according to the definition given at the Fourth Council of the Lateran and the First Vatican Council.

Dr. Liccione says that Divine simplicity and the distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Energies would be contradictory if Divine Essence is taken "to mean God as what He eternally is" because "God is actus purus, and thus has no unrealized potentialities."

However, if we define God's essence as what "He necessarily is apart from what He does," then God's "essence is incommunicable" and communication would necessitate Divine actions, or Energies. Thus there is a real distinction between God's Essence, what "He necessarily is apart from what He does," and His Energies, "God as what He eternally does."'

So...

what God necessarily is > what God eternally is

what God necessarily is = what God eternally is + unrealized potentialities

what God eternally is = what He eternally does = actus purus

???

Erik Nelson · Mar 10, 2019

utilizing etymonline.com, i think that, etymologically...

ne-cessary = in-cessant = not + ceasing/ceded away (ie including unrecognized possibilities which, in history as it played out, God did cede away, such that they ceased to be relevant to our creation, in practice)

the energetic actions which God did choose to actualize in creation = recognized potentialities = ac-cess = what came towards our creation

if so...

eternal God = accessible God = energetic actions in creation = communications from Heaven to earth = "rays of sunlight reaching earth" = actus purus

necessary God = incessant God = all of that above plus unrecognized potential = "rays of sunlight reaching earth (God's historic choices)" plus "rays of sunlight going off in other directions (things God could have done)" plus "Sun (God's infinite ineffable natural essence)" = accessible God + inaccessible God

then...

Divine Simplicity implies NO distinction between the ACCESSIBLE Divine Essence and the Divine Energies with which they are synonymous (per Thomas Aquinas, more practical focus, on "just the sunlight reaching earth" to be experienced by and in creatures)

REAL distinction between God's INACCESSIBLE Essence, what "He necessarily is APART from what He does," and His ACCESSIBLE Energies (=ACCESSIBLE Essence), "God as what He eternally does" (per Gregory Palamas, more theoretical focus, also on "sunlight going elsewhere + Sun" never yet directly experienced by or in creatures)

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