Celibate Marriage?

MariaJLM · Mar 8, 2019

This is an issue that frequently eats away at me and it seems difficult to get a clear answer so I feel I need to discuss it here.

Long story short, are celibate marriages permitted within the church? I do realize that certain saints(such as St. John of Kronstadt) had such marriages, but I have come to understand that they're more of an exception rather than the norm. On that basis I've seen people state that one should only ever get married if they're open to sexual intercourse and the possibility that said intercourse will produce children.

That reasoning often concerns me since I do like the idea of getting married for the life-long companionship and having a devout Orthodox Christian husband by my side to aide me in my spiritual journey. However, I am set on celibacy and have no interest in having children. I simply have no call whatsoever to be a mother. To most the obvious answer would be to just go monastic, but sometimes that's a lot more complex than it seems. I'm in a situation where even visiting a monastery temporarily on pilgrimage is simply not feasible. Essentially, if nothing changes in my life then it's likely that I will die alone and as a lukewarm Christian simply because I'm isolated in my Christian journey.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 8, 2019

This is definitely an ask your priest question.

I think it's certainly not the norm. But I know it's not out of the question. I know of one such marriage, but it became that way after the couple's children grew up.

There are all sorts of things to consider, for your sake and your potential husband's. I don't think there's any point of me mentioning ones that come to mind to discuss here - I think that's entirely a pastoral matter and very much involving both partners in the marriage.

ArmyMatt · Mar 8, 2019

yeah, this is something for your priest. while we do have a history of marriages being lived celibately, it is not the norm and is a very unique cross to bear.

archer75 · Mar 8, 2019

Certainly both partners would have to know this in advance. And ask your priest, etc. But it would be absolutely wrong to "trick" someone into a sexless marriage.

Pavel Mosko · Mar 8, 2019

MariaJLM said:
This is an issue that frequently eats away at me and it seems difficult to get a clear answer so I feel I need to discuss it here.

Long story short, are celibate marriages permitted within the church? I do realize that certain saints(such as St. John of Kronstadt) had such marriages, but I have come to understand that they're more of an exception rather than the norm. On that basis I've seen people state that one should only ever get married if they're open to sexual intercourse and the possibility that said intercourse will produce children.

That reasoning often concerns me since I do like the idea of getting married for the life-long companionship and having a devout Orthodox Christian husband by my side to aide me in my spiritual journey. However, I am set on celibacy and have no interest in having children. I simply have no call whatsoever to be a mother. To most the obvious answer would be to just go monastic, but sometimes that's a lot more complex than it seems. I'm in a situation where even visiting a monastery temporarily on pilgrimage is simply not feasible. Essentially, if nothing changes in my life then it's likely that I will die alone and as a lukewarm Christian simply because I'm isolated in my Christian journey.

I know this has happened a few times in Coptic Orthodoxy both in recent and ancient times. The two examples I can think of are priests that wanted to be celibate or monks, but were needed to oversee local churches where a married priest is desired and expected by the parishioners.

buzuxi02 · Mar 9, 2019

You can but it's extremely difficult to find such a mate. I know a person in that boat. She wanted to join a Bulgarian monastery but the Abess told her monastic life is not for her and she is meant to be in the world. Told her to find a like minded husband because of her passions it can act as a moat.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 9, 2019

buzuxi02 said:
You can but it's extremely difficult to find such a mate. I know a person in that boat. She wanted to join a Bulgarian monastery but the Abess told her monastic life is not for her and she is meant to be in the world. Told her to find a like minded husband because of her passions it can act as a moat.

I wonder if monasteries might be a place to inquire about such things? After one's priest I mean?

MariaJLM · Mar 9, 2019

buzuxi02 said:
You can but it's extremely difficult to find such a mate. I know a person in that boat. She wanted to join a Bulgarian monastery but the Abess told her monastic life is not for her and she is meant to be in the world. Told her to find a like minded husband because of her passions it can act as a moat.

That's precisely one of the things I'm worried about. The chances of finding a man willing to get married, only to remain celibate, are slim to none. I would be better off going monastic, but that's impossible when I can't even make pilgrimages to monasteries to figure out if it's the life for me.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

I'm seriously going to depart from Orthodox tradition and actually side with Catholics on one thing. I don't believe St. Joseph was over a hundred when he died. This is a tale from an apocryphal text and I'm saddened by all of the icons that display him as a distant, old, impotent man. I think he was younger and still chaste...and people in the scripture still remembered him as the "carpenter". He wasn't impotent, but holy. And not chaste merely by circumstance and old age, but by his willingness to do God's will. This was a man who didn't blink an eye when he heard God's command to save Mary and Jesus. I think it disrespects Joseph to hint at anything else. Orthodox would call the "younger, chaste" version of Joseph in Catholicism another innovation, but so is Orthodox tradition. Earlier saints didn't always put forward the older Joseph.

Believe that or not, they are the most fitting example of a celibate marriage and family (including Jesus).

ArmyMatt · Mar 10, 2019

I have never read that he was over one hundred, but he IS elderly, because we know he had other children prior to his betrothal.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I have never read that he was over one hundred, but he IS elderly, because we know he had other children prior to his betrothal.

Oh, I could believe he died elderly.. but the iconography has him even old in the flight to Egypt. I think this is more from the Protoevangelium and the History of Joseph the Carpenter (which specifically says Joseph was betrothed to Mary at 90!).

edit: Sorry for derailing btw, and I hope I'm not saying anything too odd, for questioning this.

MariaJLM · Mar 10, 2019

It's curious that we never hear of Joseph again after the Nativity so I think most assume he was dead by the time of the Passion.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

MariaJLM said:
It's curious that we never hear of Joseph again after the Nativity so I think most assume he was dead by the time of the Passion.

That seems the case too. I mean, Jesus also gives John to Mary, to take care of her (and vice versa), so Joseph couldn't have been alive by then. I'm just questioning the extreme elderly age. Catholics (at least some) say he died in his 60s or something.

MariaJLM · Mar 10, 2019

straykat said:
That seems the case too. I mean, Jesus also gives John to Mary, to take care of her (and vice versa), so Joseph couldn't have been alive by then. I'm just questioning the extreme elderly age. Catholics (at least some) say he died in his 60s or something.

Well, considering the narrative and the culture it does make sense that he would have been elderly at the time. Claiming he was the same age sets the dangerous precedent of denying Mary's perpetual virginity. A lot of Protestants already do.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

MariaJLM said:
Well, considering the narrative and the culture it does make sense that he would have been elderly at the time. Claiming he was the same age sets the dangerous precedent of denying Mary's perpetual virginity. A lot of Protestants already do.

But that's the opposite of what I'm saying really. I'm saying he was chaste by choice.

I probably get too ecumenical here and suggest Catholic teachings sometimes, and
I don't want to offend anyone. But I truly do admire their devotion to St. Joseph. If there's one thing I appreciate about them, it may actually be this. I think he's been set aside too much in Orthodox tradition.. out of fear of scandalizing the Theotokos. I understand that fear, but at the same time, that's inadvertently disrespectful to Joseph too. He should be held up as a giant of quiet obedience and chastity as well. Not hidden or made impotent or ancient, out of fear of what tainted thoughts Protestants might come up with (or others who try to scandalize her and fail).

I heard that even the typical "front view" of icons are recent in Orthodoxy as well.. he was only painted in scenes back in the day. He didn't even get the respect of other saints, because of this compulsion to distance his presence somehow. He's literally been set to the side.. and the church is poorer for not appreciating him.

Wow, derail. Lets just put all that to the side though.. and say it was a chaste marriage either way. Old or young.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

Oh, on one last note, I must not be alone.. since even Ancient Faith has a younger Joseph icon. I don't see these often, but it's interesting it was on a popular place such as that.

Saint Joseph the Betrothed, large icon

Alrighty then. I'm done. :oldthumbsup:

ArmyMatt · Mar 10, 2019

straykat said:
Oh, I could believe he died elderly.. but the iconography has him even old in the flight to Egypt. I think this is more from the Protoevangelium and the History of Joseph the Carpenter (which specifically says Joseph was betrothed to Mary at 90!).

edit: Sorry for derailing btw, and I hope I'm not saying anything too odd, for questioning this.

well, the Church has accepted that he was elderly when he was betrothed.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
well, the Church has accepted that he was elderly when he was betrothed.

I understand. I just don't want to be heretical. I'll keep this quietly in my head, as just a quirk.. if you will.

buzuxi02 · Mar 10, 2019

straykat said:
and people in the scripture still remembered him as the "carpenter".

This is not actually true. In Mark 6:3 no one remembers Joseph. His neighbors even calling Jesus, Son of Mary. A very unusual rendering.

straykat · Mar 10, 2019

buzuxi02 said:
This is not actually true. In Mark 6:3 no one remembers Joseph. His neighbors even calling Jesus, Son of Mary. A very unusual rendering.

I thought there was another verse somewhere along the lines of "Is not this the carpenter's son?" (since the village wrongly ascribed Joseph as his father). I figured some memory of him as a carpenter, even after he passed away, was still fresh in people's minds. If he was betrothed at an ancient age, I doubt people would remember him as the town carpenter... but as the town elder/ancient sage

Celibate Marriage?

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