Before I answer the question regarding Proverbs 30, I will ask you a question.
If I tell you that one day I am going to run as a candidate for the President of the United States, & I will become president, does this make me the president of the United States?
I think your answer will have to be NO. I also think you would say that in order for me to be the president of the United States, that I have to achieve ALL of the following: 1. Run for the candidacy. 2. Be preselected as a candidate & 3. Actually win the presidential election by a vote of the people of the United States. That is the minimum that I will have to do to be legally called the President of the United States.
So don't you think that it is absurd to call Jesus the Messiah BEFORE he fulfils the prophecy expected of the Messiah? Saying that he WILL fulfil the prophecy in the future is no different to my saying that I WILL be President of the USA in the future, it might never happen (almost certainly won't). So Jesus is obviously NOT The Messiah UNTIL he actually fulfils the prophecy.
This is the prophecy the Messiah was expected to fulfil:
A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the L-rd. His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear. But with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faith-fullness the belt around his loins. The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all My holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.Isaiah 11:1-9
The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely. And this is name by which he will be called: The Lord is our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (See also
Jeremiah 30:7-10 and 33:14-18)
My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes. They shall live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived; they and their children and their children’s children shall live there forever. And My servant David shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. Then shall the nations know that I the L-rd, sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever-more. Ezekiel 37:24-28 (See also Ezekiel 34:23-31)
The Mountain of the Lord
2 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
Notice that NONE of the prophecies says that the Messiah will be crucified & resurrected. None of the prophecies claims that the Messiah will be God himself. If any of the prophecies did claim that the Messiah will be crucified & resurrected, you might be able to say that Jesus PARTLY fulfilled prophecy, however, he hasn't fulfilled ANY prophecy expected of the Messiah.
But even partly fulfilling prophecy still doesn't prove he is the Messiah, any more than me 1. Running for the candidacy & 2. Being preselected as a candidate for the President of the USA qualifies me as the President. I still have to achieve the 3rd part, which is actually being elected as President by the people. Until I DO achieve the 3rd part, it leaves open the possibility that SOMEBODY ELSE will win the Presidential election, & I NEVER become president (just as Hilary Clinton has never become president of the USA, even though she fulfilled no. 1, no 2, & even part of no. 3 because she won the popular vote, but not the electoral college). I could claim that Hilary Clinton will be resurected politically, & return in the future to fulfill the 3rd requirement, but she still isnt the President until & unless she DOES return & fulfil the 3rd requirement.
Clearly, Jesus cannot be The Messiah, UNTIL he fulfils ALL the prophecy, because that still leaves open the possibility that SOMEBODY ELSE will come along & fulfill ALL of the prophecy.
Further, if you accept that the Old Testament is the word of god, then by calling Jesus God & the Messiah, you are basically saying that Yahweh is a deceiver & a liar. You are basically saying that God deliberately deceived the Jews, so that most of them would not be saved, by telling them over & over & over, that Yahweh is the only one, & that there is no other, so they would never accept a messiah who claims to be god.
However not even ONCE in the whole of the O.T., did god clearly & unambiguously say that God is Yahweh, The Son & the Holy Spirit. Don't you think it odd, that God would want to keep this a huge secret until the New Testament came along, & constantly lie to the Jews until that point about his true identity? Don't you also think it odd, that if God was giving prophecy about the Messiah, that he would not bother to mention even once, clearly & unambiguously that the Messiah would be tortured & crucified, & then resurrected, & have to return again to fulfil the rest of prophecy?
So if Yahweh is a liar & a deceiver, then even if Jesus IS the Messiah, why even bother, because God clearly cannot be trusted, as he is prepared to lie & deceive, & we have no idea what else he is lying a deceiving us about. In this case, the Messiah means nothing, because we cannot trust what his true purpose was.
Who is more likely to be the liar & deceiver, Yahweh of the Old Testament, or Jesus who has yet to fulfil ANY prophecy, or his disciples who may have misinterpreted who Jesus was?
Jesus has also PROVEN that he is NOT the real Messiah, by claiming that he would return to fulfil prophecy in 'the generation of the disciples' some of whom 'would not taste death' until his return. This proves beyond doubt that Jesus was not the messiah, & that he won't be returning in the future. I could give more evidence that Jesus is unlikely to be the Messiah, however, what I have already given should be sufficient.
Regarding Proverbs 30:
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!
His name is the god Yaweh, & his son is the nation of Israel. Just as everywhere else in the O.T. where the nation of Israel is referred to as Gods Son! Again, you want to take very obscure passages in the O.T. & try to insert the name of Jesus where there is no evidence that that is what the phrase refers to at all, while at the same time ignoring very very CLEAR passages, that make it clear that jesus is NOT the true messiah, where no creative interpretation is required at all!
