Evidence of Christs coming

The next prophesied event will be when the Lord comes in his fiery wrath. He will not be seen on that terrible Day, but He will be revealed to His own soon after that Day.
It will not be for at least 10 years: after all that is prophesied in Revelation takes place, that Jesus will Return in glory for His Millennium reign.

Preterists who like to think Jesus has already Returned and all the prophesies are fulfilled, are in serious denial of the truths of the bible. They; and most Christians who have failed to understand what we are told God plans to do in the end times, will be surprised and shocked, instead of prepared and ready, as we all should be.

shilohsfoal said:

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.

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Sure. No problem
That's easy.
All you need to do is provide me the eyewitness accounts of these previous OT cloud comings, I will then quickly provide the same for Christ's NT Cloud coming:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
(Side note on Ezekiel 5:7-9, Notice how Ezekiel states that the 6th century Judgment upon Israel would be the worst of God's Judgments that "ever was, nor ever shall be" - Interesting huh?)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

After David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Please provide the eyewitness accounts of all these times God come down to earth, visibly seen upon a cherub, riding a cloud, shooting actual arrows, bearing his arm before every eye, drawing forth His sword, bowing the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare, and kindling actual fire with the breath of His nostrils.

Remember, don't attempt to change the above words to corrupt the message!

Provide the eyewitness accounts from History...Certainly, such a monumental, GLOBALLY VISIBLE event of God's actual ARM being seen by every eye of every person in every nation (Isiah 52:10) would have been recorded in History Books around the world...

Please provide the eyewitness accounts, or else retract your OP requirement.

You don't get a special exception.
You too are held to abide by your own rule, friend.

shilohsfoal said:

This is an example of an eye witness account to help you.

Acts 1:9 KJV: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Eye witnesses watched as Jesus ascended into heaven into a cloud and it is documented for all ofhs to read.

Now we would like to see and read your eye witness accounts of Christ coming in the clouds as he said he would be seen.

Acts 1:11 KJV: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Please privide a list of eye witnesses to Christ coming in the clouds as he was seen asceding into the clouds.


Thank you in advance.

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Interestingly, the literal rendering Acts 1:11 insists that His return would be "hidden from their eyes", for it was in this "like manner" (hidden from their eyes) that he went "into Heaven" (Acts 1:9)

But, in fairness, you might not interpret Acts 1:9-11 as Literally as I do

shilohsfoal said:

But there are some who just cant seem to aknowledge this prophecy by Jesus has yet to be fulfilled.

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Some just cant come to except the truth that Jesus hasnt come.

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Why do you de-literalize this passage?
Oh, I know, because interpreting it literally would undo your paradigm.

You really aren't much of a Literalist at all it seems.

Oscarr said:

It seems as though some are saying that Jesus has already come again. Paul warned the Thessalonians about folks preaching that same doctrine to them, 2000 years ago!

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Interesting... do you suppose it will EVER be ok to claim Christ has come?

Or even after He does actually come, will it still be "faith destroying" to affirm it is past?

The scripture you referenced, as it seems you understand it, indicates the latter, does it not?

shilohsfoal said:

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.

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Verses 20 through the first half of verse 24 below, are about 70 AD.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The future Second Coming of Christ, which is found below, will occur when "the times of the Gentiles" is completed.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

parousia70 said:

Interesting... do you suppose it will EVER be ok to claim Christ has come?

Or even after He does actually come, will it still be "faith destroying" to affirm it is past?

The scripture you referenced, as it seems you understand it, indicates the latter, does it not?

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The Scriptures says that when Christ comes, he will come in glory and every eye shall see him. His second coming will not be the unnoticed arrival like His first coming as a baby in Bethlehem. When He appears the second time, there will be no mistake. Those who have heart faith and love Him will welcome Him, and those, however religious they may be but have their hearts far away from them will be terrified because they will know right then that the day of grace is over and it will be too late for them.

It will not be faith destroying, because unconverted sinners never had faith in the first place. For the genuine believer, he won't need faith any longer, because he will be seeing Christ in person.

Oscarr said:

The Scriptures says that when Christ comes, he will come in glory and every eye shall see him.

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Take a look at my post #22 above... do you have evidence or eyewitness accounts of God being "Seen by every eye" in those examples I provided?

His second coming will not be the unnoticed arrival like His first coming as a baby in Bethlehem.

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Except here:
Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with outward observation.

It will not be faith destroying, because unconverted sinners never had faith in the first place. For the genuine believer, he won't need faith any longer, because he will be seeing Christ in person.

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Got it.. so it's only wrong to say "it is past" if it isn't true.

Fair enough.

By the way, how will that work with a Billion of us Christians... Will we all have to travel to Jerusalem and wait in line for Hours, days, weeks, moths or years just to See Jesus in person, like some kind of Hosanna book signing at a Barnes and Noble? or will it be like Santa Clause in December... a Jesus on every street corner and Shoping Mall? maybe we all get our own personal Jesus at Home we can call upon at any time and He pops out of a Bottle Like I dream of Genie?

What do you think?

parousia70 said:

Take a look at my post #22 above... do you have evidence or eyewitness accounts of God being "Seen by every eye" in those examples I provided?

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I was talking about the second coming of Christ which has not happened yet. Did you miss that?

Except here:
Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with outward observation.

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Jesus was not talking about His second coming at all. He said that if He cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom has come among them. When the Pharisees demanded how the kingdom should come, Jesus said that it did not come by outward observation but in the hearts of converted believers.

It is good to examine verses in their proper context to get the appropriate understanding of what is being said. You can't pluck a verse out of its context and then refer it to something that is not even mentioned in the context. Doing that is twisting the Scripture and adding to it.

Got it.. so it's only wrong to say "it is past" if it isn't true.

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Unless a person is an unintelligent pelican, he would know that the second coming of Christ has not happened yet, and anyone who says that it has already happened is saying that under the inspiration of the spirit of stupidity!

By the way, how will that work with a Billion of us Christians... Will we all have to travel to Jerusalem and wait in line to See Jesus in person like a book signing at a Barnes and Noble? or will it be like Santa Clause in December... a Jesus on every street corner and Shopping Mall? maybe we all get our own personal Jesus at Home we can call upon at any time and He pops out of a Bottle Like I dream of Genie?

What do you think?

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You'll have to wait until it happens, won't you?

But here is the question: What will YOU do when Jesus comes again?

shilohsfoal said:

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations.

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Do you believe the text above was not fulfilled during 70 AD?

.

shilohsfoal said:

No
Thats not what its about.

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Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

.

Oscarr said:

I was talking about the second coming of Christ

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I know.
Christ's coming was to be a coming like Yahweh's comings. Jesus promised he would come in the glory of the Father (Matt 16:27) and as a "Day of Yahweh." It doesn't get any plainer than this for us.
Which is why we must look to scripture to discover the nature of the many "comings of The Father in Glory" and multiple past "day of the Lord" events recorded for us there, if we want to learn anything about the Nature of the Day of Christ and His coming in Glory. Why would you ignore them?

These comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

And we certainly have no Biblical instruction to teach that Christ's Coming is POLAR OPPOSITE in Nature to The Father's many previous comings.
I wonder why you do, however?

Jesus was not talking about His second coming at all. He said that if He cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom has come among them. When the Pharisees demanded how the kingdom should come, Jesus said that it did not come by outward observation but in the hearts of converted believers.

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The Bible teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

In Luke 21:20-22, Jesus said the Day of the Lord's Vengeance was the AD66-70 event, which had also been foreseen in Isaiah 61:1-2 (verse 2, in particular). Jesus applied both of those Isaiah 61 verses to himself, and said Isa 61:1 was fulfilled (see Luke 4 as where Jesus stood preaching and declaring Isaiah 61:1 fulfilled in their very presence). Jesus preached that Isaiah 61:2 was to be fulfilled when the nation was destroyed (see Luke 21:20-22).

It is good to examine verses in their proper context to get the appropriate understanding of what is being said. You can't pluck a verse out of its context and then refer it to something that is not even mentioned in the context. Doing that is twisting the Scripture and adding to it.

Unless a person is an unintelligent pelican, he would know that the second coming of Christ has not happened yet, and anyone who says that it has already happened is saying that under the inspiration of the spirit of stupidity!

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Without question, The Lord of the Vineyard indeed came and Jesus was the Stone that did grind them to powder as He removed the Kingdom of God from them (Matthew 21:40-45).
Anyone who claims The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard in Matthew 21:40-45 remains unfulfilled is obviously ignorant.
Some willfully, others innocently.
Which are you?

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

But here is the question: What will YOU do when Jesus comes again?

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He comes to me every Day in the Eucharist.
How are you greeting Him each day?

parousia70 said:

I know.
Christ's coming was to be a coming like Yahweh's comings. Jesus promised he would come in the glory of the Father (Matt 16:27) and as a "Day of Yahweh." It doesn't get any plainer than this for us.
Which is why we must look to scripture to discover the nature of the many "comings of The Father in Glory" and multiple past "day of the Lord" events recorded for us there, if we want to learn anything about the Nature of the Day of Christ and His coming in Glory. Why would you ignore them?

These comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

And we certainly have no Biblical instruction to teach that Christ's Coming is POLAR OPPOSITE in Nature to The Father's many previous comings.
I wonder why you do, however?



The Bible teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

In Luke 21:20-22, Jesus said the Day of the Lord's Vengeance was the AD66-70 event, which had also been foreseen in Isaiah 61:1-2 (verse 2, in particular). Jesus applied both of those Isaiah 61 verses to himself, and said Isa 61:1 was fulfilled (see Luke 4 as where Jesus stood preaching and declaring Isaiah 61:1 fulfilled in their very presence). Jesus preached that Isaiah 61:2 was to be fulfilled when the nation was destroyed (see Luke 21:20-22).



Without question, The Lord of the Vineyard indeed came and Jesus was the Stone that did grind them to powder as He removed the Kingdom of God from them (Matthew 21:40-45).
Anyone who claims The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard in Matthew 21:40-45 remains unfulfilled is obviously ignorant.
Some willfully, others innocently.
Which are you?

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).



He comes to me every Day in the Eucharist.
How are you greeting Him each day?

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We have Jesus in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. This is what is meant by "Christ in us, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). The Holy Spirit does not come and go from us. He abides in us. I think your sense of Christ "coming" to you is actually the sense of the stirring of the Holy Spirit in you to give you the assurance of the presence of God with you.

Jesus is seated, in person, at the right hand of the Father, interceding for the genuinely converted believers. But there will come a day when Jesus will appear in person to wind everything up, at the same time all the genuine believers will rise to meet Him, along with the Holy Spirit in them, and the unbelievers will be left behind to face the Judgment.

I think the idea of the frequent "comings" of Jesus is a sweet religious concept, but it is foreign to the New Testament that clearly states that Jesus "will never leave us nor forsake us", and that He "will send another comforter [the Holy Spirit] to abide with us for ever".

I think that we need to just accept that, and get on with the more pressing business that we need to consider why the Holy Spirit is abiding in us, and how that should be affecting the unconverted sinners around us, seeing that the principal mission of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is to save sinners.

BABerean2 said:

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

.

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Yes indeed. Oh the wonder of His WORD!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:19

Matthew 24:19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
Mark 13:17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days,
for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.
[Luke 23:27-30 Revelation 6:16]

Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were.
And grieved<2875> and dirged <2354> Him.
28 Yet Jesus being turned toward them said "Daughters of Jerusalem! no be lamenting<2799> over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting<2799> and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! days are coming, in which they shall be declaring, 'Happy/Blessed the barren and the wombs that never bear, and breasts which not suck'.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains, Fall upon us! and to the hills 'cover us![Revelation 6:16]
31 That if in the wet wood these they are doing, in the dry what my be becoming?

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[Luke 21:23 Luke 23:30]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it.
'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror. At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.

............................

shilohsfoal said:

Your message sounds sweet and im sure alot of people pay good money for a message such as that but the fact is when Jesus comes,its not the people who have the holy spirit who are taken away.
Those who are saved remain while those who are not saved are taken away.

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.
Matthew 24:39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Noah and his family were not taken away by the flood.Everyone else was.

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How about having a read of 1 and 2 Thessalonians? Maybe you haven't read that far in the New Testament yet!

If all else fails, read the Bible!

LittleLambofJesus said:

Yes indeed. Oh the wonder of His WORD!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:19

Matthew 24:19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
Mark 13:17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days,
for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.
[Luke 23:27-30 Revelation 6:16]

Luke 11:
27 And it came to pass, as he said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said unto him, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the breasts which Thou didst suck".
28 But He said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were.
And grieved<2875> and dirged <2354> Him.
28 Yet Jesus being turned toward them said "Daughters of Jerusalem! no be lamenting<2799> over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting<2799> and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! days are coming, in which they shall be declaring, 'Happy/Blessed the barren and the wombs that never bear, and breasts which not suck'.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains, Fall upon us! and to the hills 'cover us!
31 That if in the wet wood these they are doing, in the dry what my be becoming?

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

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What is your point? You have quoted a number of Scriptures abstractly, but you have not given any practical application for believers or seekers for Christ.

Oscarr said:

What is your point? You have quoted a number of Scriptures abstractly, but you have not given any practical application for believers or seekers for Christ.

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That is why I put up links to threads I have on it.