Flat Earthers Globebusters and Jeranism Busted in "Behind the Curve" Documentary

pitabread said:

I'm betting then that most flat Earthers have never used a telescope. Or even binoculars for that matter.

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Steve Petersen said:

Flat Earthers disprove themselves with their own experiments in documentary ‘Behind the Curve,’ now on Netflix

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Ophiolite said:

I think it is a good start and I just wanted to encourage you not to quit when you are obviously on a roll.

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d taylor said:

No where in the Bible does, the Bible state God created a universe. Heaven and earth is stated as God's creation.

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chilehed said:

I apologise for my earlier snarky reply, which was rightly reported and removed.

The word universe comes from Latin roots that indicate "all things" or "all of creation", and the Bible most certainly credits God with creating all things.

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lasthero said:

Most flat earthers I’ve encountered don’t even think the planets ARE planets. They think they’re just lights, like the stars.

Even though you can see them.

And see the moon’s moving around them.

And see that they’re moving differently than all the others lights.

And even see that they move in front of the Sun, unlike any of the other lights.

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d taylor said:

I see nowhere in the Bible, where heaven should be the same as a scientist defined universe.
In the creation account God creates heaven and earth

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d taylor said:

Thank you, i had been dealing with another person the week before that was posting goading type post to some of my post and had, kind of had that still in my craw.

I take where universe in used (in english) in the scriptures (Hebrews 11:3) and look into the original word in greek and universe is defined as an age
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

I see nowhere in the Bible, where heaven should be the same as a scientist defined universe.
In the creation account God creates heaven and earth

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Ophiolite said:

How true. My wife is an infinitesimal part of the universe and I don't understand her at all!

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FEZZILLA said:

The universe is first mentioned in Genesis. The online version of the Strong's doesn't always contain full definitions. The book version is more complete.

Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."
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A_Thinker said:

From the Hebrew Masoretic text ... Job 26 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth over nothing.

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d taylor said:

No heaven is sky, where the Birds fly Genesis 1:20 same place the sun, moon and stars are located.

Terra Firma: David Wardlaw Scott

Before leaving this subject of the Circumference,
there is one other passage in the Authorised Version of the Bible to which I would like to refer, as it has been made a pretext for believing the theory of the Earth whirling round the Sun. It is as follows

Job 26:7." He stretcheth out- the North over The empty place, and hangeth the Earth upon nothing "

The Hebrew is —
neteh tsephoon ol tehoo tehleh arets ol belimeh,
The proper translation of which is:
"He spreadeth out the North over the desolate' place (the abyss of waters), and supporteth the Earth upon
fastenings."

I am much surprised that not only the translators of the Authorized and Revised Versions, but such a distinguished scholar as the late Dr. Robert Young, could have made such a strange mistake, as to say that God
" hangeth the Earth upon nothing," which is neither a proper rendering nor common sense ; besides
which it distinctly contradicts the Word of God which,
in so many other places, declares that the Earth rests
upon Foundations. There must be a support for any
thing that hangs, and our Modem Astronomers were not long in taking advantage of the above miss translation by saying that, as it was impossible for
such a heavy mass as the Earth to stand by itself, the passage must mean that it whirls round the Sun by the force of Gravitation.

But a little examination of two words in the original
will soon put matters straight, Shakespeare says,
"The Earth hath bubbles, as the water hath,"
and
the theory of the world rushing around the sun impelled by the
hypothetic law of gravitation, is one of the biggest that ever required
pricking

The Hebrew word teleh means to hang, suspend, or support by actual contact. thus, to give a few instances/examples:
Genesis 40:19Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head from you and hang you on a tree; and the birds will eat your flesh from you.”

Psalms 137:2 We hung our harps Upon the willows in the midst of it.

Ezekiel 15:3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?

but belimeh wrongly translated "nothing" is the crucial word. Our translators appear to have derived it from the noun blee, signifying consumption or desolation, and the pronoun meh, who which what, but the meaning "nothing" drawn from these words, seems to be very far fetched. Hebrew is a very ancient language, to all probability the most ancient of any, and this being the only place in the Bible where the word belimeh occurs, it is, of course, difficult to test the meaning. I have myself, however, not the slightest doubt, that Parkhurst is right in deriving the noun belimeh from the verb belem, to confine, restrain, or hold in, so used in

Psalm 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed(belem) with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.

and that belimeh simply means "fastenings," or "supports," and this interpretation exactly agrees with what JEHOVAH/God asked Job a little farther on in

Job 38:6 To what were its foundations fastened?Or who laid its cornerstone,

But while I consider Parkhurst to be correct as to the rendering of the word belimeh, I believe him to be wrong as to the strange application of it which he makes, when he says —

"What can this mean but the columns of light and spirit, between which the Earth is suspended (comp. 1Sam 2: 8), and which, like the two reins of a
bridle, hold (if I may be allowed the expression) the mighty steed within its circular course."*

That Paxkhurst, from the "Record of his Life," was
an excellent man, there is every reason to believe, and
that he was a profound scholar we know, but he was
a Hutchinsonian, and held peculiar views as to the
Earth's movements by means of conflicting ethers, which he drags in on every possible occasion. I cannot here enter into his theory, which I consider to be quite
untenable, but would refer any who might wish to
examine it to an able work by Mr. J. A. Macdonald,
" The Principia and the Bible ; a Critique and an
Argument." f Bagster's " Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee
Lexicon " also gives the meaning of the verb belem, " to bind, to bridle," and I am informed, on reliable
authority, that Breslau also derives belimeh from belem
to fasten, but I have not his Lexicon at hand to verify
the fact myself.

It is, therefore, evident from the above examination,
that the real meaning of belimeh in Job 26:6 is that God supports the Earth upon fastenings, or, in other
words, upon "foundations," the truth of which will be
fully confirmed in the following Section, in which it
will be seen that the Earth is not only stretched out
upon the waters which have an impassable circumference, but that it has Immovable Foundations, therefore it cannot be a planet.

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Bible Commentaries on Job 26:7,

FEZZILLA said:

David Wardlaw Scott is a flat earther who claims the earth is not a planet. So he seeks to twist the Bible to fit his views. But 2000 years of scholarship refutes all cult leaders.

Job 26:7


Corpus of Translations:

"Which God stretchith forth the north on voide thing, and hangith the erthe on nouyt" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

"He stretcheth out ye north ouer the emptie, & hageth ye earth vpo nothinge" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"He stretched oute the north ouer the emptie, & hangeth the earth vpon nothinge" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"He stretcheth out the north ouer the emptie, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1539 Great Bible).

"He stretcheth out the North ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1560 Geneva Bible).

"He stretcheth out the noorth ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (KJV).

"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all" (NAB).

"He stretches out the north over the void
and hangs the earth on nothing" (ESV).

"He stretched out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing" (NASB).

"He stretches out the north over empty space,
He hangs the earth upon nothing" (MEV).

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing" (NIV).

"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing" (NKJV).

"God stretches the northern sky over empty space
and hangs the earth on nothing" (NLT).

"He stretches out the north over the void,
and hangs the earth upon nothing" (RSV).

"Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing" (YLT).

"He stretches the north over chaos
and suspends the earth on nothing" (Complete Jewish Bible).
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Hebrew Lexicons:

The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H8518. תָּלָה tâlâh, taw-law'; a primitive root; to suspend (especially to gibbet):—hang [25x], hang up [3x]. See: TWOT -- 2512; BDB -- 1067d"

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

TWOT: "2512 תָּלָה (tâlâh) hang. (ASV and RSV similar.)
". . . The verb means basically "to hang," whether a utensil on a peg (Isa 22:24; Ezk 15:3), weapons on a wall ((Ezk 27:10f., both Piel: Song 4:4), or a lyre on a tree (Ps 137:2). Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery, when it states that God "hangs the earth upon nothing." Other (more grisly) examples of the verb may be seen in Lam 5:12 (Niphal); 11 Sam 4:12; 18:10."

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

". . . 5. Hanging or suspending other objects. These include harps, which are hung on poplars by the disconsolate exiles (Ps 137:2), a variety of things that can be hung on a wooden peg (yated, --> # 3845; Ezk 15:3), and the earth, which is hung by God "over nothing" (Job 26:7).

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

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Bible Commentaries on Job 26:7,

Believer's Bible Commentary:

"26:5-13 The rest of the chapter gives a marvelous description of God's power in the universe: the evaporation/precipitation cycle; the density of the clouds; the cycle of light and darkness; the storm at sea; and the stars and constellations by which His Spirit has adorned the heavens.
While Bildad stressed God's glory in the heavens, Job here dwells on His power in the depths: under the waters, Sheol, and Destruction.
Job desccribes--centuries before science taught it--that God hangs the earth on nothing (which is a poetic depiction of the earth's position and movement in the solar system).

How immeasurably above the cosmogonies of the heathen philosophers are these few grand words! In them we have as in germ the discoveries of a Newton and a Keppler. It is a great mistake to think Scripture does not teach scientific truth. It teaches all needed truth, even if not in scientific language. yet with scientific accuracy" [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134].

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

"7. Hint of the true theory of the earth. Its suspension in empty space is stated in the second clause. The north in particular is specified in the first, being believed to be the highest part of the earth ( Isaiah 14:13 ). The northern hemisphere or vault of heaven is included; often compared to a stretched-out canopy ( Psalms 104:2 ). The chambers of the south are mentioned ( Job 9:9 ), that is, the southern hemisphere, consistently with the earth's globular form."

Matthew Henry's Commentary,

"(1.) He hangs the earth upon nothing, v. 7. The vast terraqueous globe neither rests upon any pillars nor hangs upon any axle-tree, and yet, by the almighty power of God, is firmly fixed in its place, poised with its own weight. The art of man could not hang a feather upon nothing, yet the divine wisdom hangs the whole earth so. It is ponderibus librata suis—poised by its own weight, so says the poet; it is upheld by the word of God’s power, so says the apostle. What is hung upon nothing may serve us to set our feet on, and bear the weight of our bodies, but it will never serve us to set our hearts on, nor bear the weight of our souls."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

“7-8 The word “skies” is a justifiable insertion in v.7. Although Saphon means “north” (GK 7600), the verb “spreads out” is never used of the earth but if often used in reference to the heavens (cf.9:8). This imagery is continued by the words “over empty space.” It is not difficult to postulate what “empty space” might be intended by Job if he were referring to a northern region of the earth where the majestic mountains rise.
Job was pointing to God’s power as incomprehensible. The heavens are visible yet, they do not fall to earth; there is no visible means of support. Even the earth itself can be said to hang on nothing. That God spread out the heavens over empty space, hang the earth on nothing, and fill the clouds with water without bursting is intended to make us stand in awe. Job was boldly expressing in poetic terms the marvelous and majestic power of God.”

Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

"26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing

Rain Useful To The Whole Created Order. Olympiodorus [ the Deacon ]: "He stretches out the north wind upon nothing, and he upon nothing hangs the earth." Indeed the support of the earth is nothing but an understructure, but it is suspended and is sustained by Divine will. . . . " (brackets mine).
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The Ancient Interpretation Is The Accurate Interpretation

† St.Ambrose (340 – 397),

Here is a lengthy quote which answers criticism from flat earthers. Ambrose quotes from Job 26:7 as well as explains it when he says "Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature."

“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron," The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).

Ambrose is saying that the earth will not fall or move out or away from the laws God ordained for it.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Josephus says: "...and he determined it should stand by itself." This is a reference to Job 26:7.

† Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

Clement says: "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” again is a reference to Job 26:7. The earth is not held up by any physical or visible object. God ordained the fixed laws of our spherical earth which took science 4000 years after Job to fully understand.

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d taylor said:

Good thing the Bible shows your errors and we know the earth is set on foundations. At least 8+ times the Bible says that the earth is set on foundations.

I will believe the Bible over men

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FEZZILLA said:

2000 years of theology can't go wrong.

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Herman Hedning said:

Whats with all the archaic grammar? "Stretcheth, hangeth" - who talks like that nowadays? And does it make the words more true?

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