LDS LDS, when did Jesus become God?

Peter1000

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So John was mistaken when he said that everything was made by Jesus, even when he emphasised the point in saying that without him was not anything made that was made. John was adamant that the pre-incarnate Son of God made everything that exists and there is nothing that was created that was not created by Him.

To say that Jesus did not create everything without exception is to call the Apostle John a liar! If JS and BY taught that Jesus did not create everything in our universe, then the founders of the Mormon church are at odds with the Apostle John who wrote his gospel under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. So, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit? The Apostle John, who walked with Jesus for 3 years and was baptised with the Holy Spirit at the Day of Pentecost, or JS who formed the foundation doctrines of the Mormon church, and who, at the age of 16 years, may not have known there was a Holy Spirit?
Interesting enough, it was the Apostle John that visited JS with Peter and James, and gave JS the keys of the kingdom of God, the same keys that were given to Peter and the Apostles as you read in Matthew 16:19. Now JS had the true authority to grow the Church of Jesus Christ again in his time.
 
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mmksparbud

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Would you be more mature than to use phrases like "give that a shirl in the theater of your mind". It is not necessary.

1:1 says that Elohim created, not Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus to start with.

Again, tell me which day was the earth created after Elohim started creating in 1:3?

We do see that on day 2 he created the heavens, which he also mentions in 1:1. But why do we not see that it says in day 1 or 2, for instance, that he created the earth?

It is because the raw material for the earth, already existed. What God did was organize that raw material into an earth

If God had created the earth from nothing, why would he have created it without form and why was it void? So you think God created a deformed thing?

Why not create a nice round globe from nothing in day 1 or 2 and tell us that it was good?
It is because there was no creation out of nothing, he took material that was without form and void, and made it into an earth before the creation even got started.

Never does it talk about creating water in any day. Why? Wouldn't water be a huge part of 'all'?

We believe that God did hot create things out of nothing. And Jesus, God's son, did not create "all" things out of nothing either.

So if this does not answer your "all" question, let me know.


What is JS's interpretation of Elohiym?
 
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Peter1000

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What is JS's interpretation of Elohiym?
To JS, Elohim = Gods, or more specifically, a council of the Gods. There were 2 Gods from this council Gods that did most of the planning of the creation and the God that created everything spiritually in Genesis 1 in heaven was called Elohim (who represented the council and was given all power and authority over this earth).

The second God who created everything naturally in the Genesis 2 was the son of Elohim and his name is Yahweh and later on Jehovah, and much later on was Jesus of Nazareth.
He too realized godhood and was given power and authority even before the world was created to be the creator of "all" things natural.

So the English name for the Hebrew God Elohim is God (Genesis 1:1). The English name for the Hebrew God Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus was the Lord God (Genesis 2:4).
 
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Interesting enough, it was the Apostle John that visited JS with Peter and James, and gave JS the keys of the kingdom of God, the same keys that were given to Peter and the Apostles as you read in Matthew 16:19. Now JS had the true authority to grow the Church of Jesus Christ again in his time.
Whew! Now I've heard everything! JS certainly had a vivid imagination for a 16 year old treasure hunter who became disillusioned with the established church and decided to set up his own religion!

If The Apostle John, Peter and James had come back and confronted JS, they would have told him quite assertively to repent and get right with God and believe the gospel as it is clearly set out in the New Testament!

"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16).

And, although you won't accept it, the book of Mormon is a cleverly devised set of stories, no more.
 
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mmksparbud

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Just some interesting reading





Hebrew Names of God in the Bible
In our modern culture a title defines the position, or character, of an individual while a name is nothing but an identifier with no meaning. In Hebrew all names are words with meaning and represent the character of the individual. Using English as an example my name, from an Hebraic perspective, could be Jeff, father, husband, son or manager. The first column is the name in Hebrew, the second is an English transliteration, the third is its literal translation and the fourth is a Biblical reference with the name.




אל El mighty one Genesis 14:19

אלוה Elo'ah power Deuteronomy 32:15
אלהים Elohiym powers Genesis 1:1
יהוה Yehu he exists Genesis 4:1
אהוה Ehyeh I exist Exodus 3:14
אדוני Adonai lords Genesis 18:27
אחד Ehhad one Zechariah 14:9
מלך Melekh king Psalm 47:6
אב Av father Isaiah 64:8
מושיע Moshi'ah deliverer Isaiah 45:15
רוח Ru'ahh wind Genesis 1:2
בורא Borey filler Isaiah 40:28
באל Ba'al master Isaiah 54:5
עושה Oseh maker Isaiah 54:5
אל שדי El Shaddai mighty breasts Genesis 17:1
אדוני יהוה Adonai Yehu Adonai of Yehu Genesis 15:2
יהוה אלהים Yehu Elohiym Yehu of Elohiym Genesis 2:4
יהוה יראה Yehu Yireh Yehu sees Genesis 22:14
יהוה נסי Yehu Nisi Yehu is my standard Exodus 17:15
יהוה שלום Yehu Shalom Yehu is completeness Judges 6:24
יהוה צדקנו Yehu Tsid'qanu Yehu is our righteousness Jeremiah 23:6
יהוה צבאות Yehu Tseva'ot Yehu of the armies 1 Samuel 1:3
אלהים צבאות Elohiym Tseva'ot Elohiym of the armies Psalm 80:7

God
heb-anc-sm-lamed.jpg
heb-anc-sm-aleph.jpg
אֵל el
When reading the Bible it is better to have an Ancient Hebrew perception of Elohiym rather than our modern western view. The word el was originally written with two pictographic letters, one being an ox head and the other a shepherd staff. The ox represented strength and the staff of the shepherd represented authority. First, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the strong one of authority. The shepherd staff was also understood as a staff on the shoulders, a yoke. Secondly, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the ox in the yoke. When plowing a field two oxen were placed in a yoke, one was the older more experienced one, and the other was the younger and less experienced. The younger would then learn from the older. The Hebrews saw Elohiym as the older experienced ox and they as the younger that learns from him.
There are three words in Hebrew that are translated as "God." The word "El" (aleph-lamed) is a common Hebrew word that literally means "powerful one" and is used in the Bible for anything with power such as a god (Ex 34:14), a mountain (Ps 36:6) and God (Gen 14:18). The word "elo'ah" (aleph-lamed-vav-hey) is also translated as God but more literally means "one who yokes to another." The root of this word is alah (aleph-lamed-hey) and means an oath in the sense of being a "binding yoke" (Gen 26:28). The third word is elohiym (aleph-lamed-hey-yud-mem) and is the plural form of the word elo'ah (

The Hebrew name for God is a four letter word spelled with four Hebrew letters, yud, hey, vav, hey and transliterated into English as YHVH. There are three problems when trying to find the pronunciation of this name. First, Modern Hebrew pronunciation is slightly different than modern ancient Hebrew pronunciation. We do not know for certain how Ancient Hebrew was pronounced. For example the letter vav is pronounced with a "v" in modern Hebrew but was more likly pronounced with a "w" hence the often seen transliteration YHWH.Secondly, each of these letters were used as a consonant or a vowel in Ancient Hebrew. For instance, the letter vav (waw) could be a "W," "O" or "U." Thirdly, vowels are frequently used in Hebrew words but not written. For example, the word MLK could be pronounced melek (king, a noun) or malak (to reign, a verb). If the letters in the name were used as consonants we do not know what vowel sounds were associated with name.

The two most common prounciations are Jehovah and Yahweh. Yahweh is a possible translation but not Jehovah as there is no "J" in Hebrew. But, it should be noted that the letter "J" was originally pronounced as a "Y" and Yehovah is a possible translation (if the vav was pronounced with a "w"). Other possible pronunciations include Yehowah, Yahueh, Yihweh, Yahwah and Yahuh.
Hebrew Names in the Bible
 
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mmksparbud

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I know he created light.
I know he divided the water to create the firmament - heaven
I know he moved the lower water into 1 location and called is the seas, and this made the dry land appear.
I know he created the plants
I know he created the animals
I know he created man, both male and female after him image.

But I could not find where he created the global earth or the water.

I only know that Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth and water already were in existence before the first day of creation. Therefore I am on solid grounds to say that Jesus did not create the earth or water, but he molded a void and unshaped mass covered with water into our earth, not from nothing, but from existing material.


Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
 
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Peter1000

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Whew! Now I've heard everything! JS certainly had a vivid imagination for a 16 year old treasure hunter who became disillusioned with the established church and decided to set up his own religion!

If The Apostle John, Peter and James had come back and confronted JS, they would have told him quite assertively to repent and get right with God and believe the gospel as it is clearly set out in the New Testament!

"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16).

And, although you won't accept it, the book of Mormon is a cleverly devised set of stories, no more.
And who devised these stories? A 16 year old farm boy from NY?
 
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Peter1000

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Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Very good question. Where was Job when the foundation of the earth was laid?

Could Job have been one of the morning stars that sang or one of the Sons of God that shouted for joy as the foundations of the earth were being laid? (Job 38:7)

That is a question I ask when I teach the pre-mortal life lessons. So thank you for choosing Job. He certainly got understanding after God confronted him with this great information.
 
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Peter1000

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Just some interesting reading





Hebrew Names of God in the Bible
In our modern culture a title defines the position, or character, of an individual while a name is nothing but an identifier with no meaning. In Hebrew all names are words with meaning and represent the character of the individual. Using English as an example my name, from an Hebraic perspective, could be Jeff, father, husband, son or manager. The first column is the name in Hebrew, the second is an English transliteration, the third is its literal translation and the fourth is a Biblical reference with the name.




אל El mighty one Genesis 14:19

אלוה Elo'ah power Deuteronomy 32:15
אלהים Elohiym powers Genesis 1:1
יהוה Yehu he exists Genesis 4:1
אהוה Ehyeh I exist Exodus 3:14
אדוני Adonai lords Genesis 18:27
אחד Ehhad one Zechariah 14:9
מלך Melekh king Psalm 47:6
אב Av father Isaiah 64:8
מושיע Moshi'ah deliverer Isaiah 45:15
רוח Ru'ahh wind Genesis 1:2
בורא Borey filler Isaiah 40:28
באל Ba'al master Isaiah 54:5
עושה Oseh maker Isaiah 54:5
אל שדי El Shaddai mighty breasts Genesis 17:1
אדוני יהוה Adonai Yehu Adonai of Yehu Genesis 15:2
יהוה אלהים Yehu Elohiym Yehu of Elohiym Genesis 2:4
יהוה יראה Yehu Yireh Yehu sees Genesis 22:14
יהוה נסי Yehu Nisi Yehu is my standard Exodus 17:15
יהוה שלום Yehu Shalom Yehu is completeness Judges 6:24
יהוה צדקנו Yehu Tsid'qanu Yehu is our righteousness Jeremiah 23:6
יהוה צבאות Yehu Tseva'ot Yehu of the armies 1 Samuel 1:3
אלהים צבאות Elohiym Tseva'ot Elohiym of the armies Psalm 80:7

God
heb-anc-sm-lamed.jpg
heb-anc-sm-aleph.jpg
אֵל el
When reading the Bible it is better to have an Ancient Hebrew perception of Elohiym rather than our modern western view. The word el was originally written with two pictographic letters, one being an ox head and the other a shepherd staff. The ox represented strength and the staff of the shepherd represented authority. First, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the strong one of authority. The shepherd staff was also understood as a staff on the shoulders, a yoke. Secondly, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the ox in the yoke. When plowing a field two oxen were placed in a yoke, one was the older more experienced one, and the other was the younger and less experienced. The younger would then learn from the older. The Hebrews saw Elohiym as the older experienced ox and they as the younger that learns from him.
There are three words in Hebrew that are translated as "God." The word "El" (aleph-lamed) is a common Hebrew word that literally means "powerful one" and is used in the Bible for anything with power such as a god (Ex 34:14), a mountain (Ps 36:6) and God (Gen 14:18). The word "elo'ah" (aleph-lamed-vav-hey) is also translated as God but more literally means "one who yokes to another." The root of this word is alah (aleph-lamed-hey) and means an oath in the sense of being a "binding yoke" (Gen 26:28). The third word is elohiym (aleph-lamed-hey-yud-mem) and is the plural form of the word elo'ah (

The Hebrew name for God is a four letter word spelled with four Hebrew letters, yud, hey, vav, hey and transliterated into English as YHVH. There are three problems when trying to find the pronunciation of this name. First, Modern Hebrew pronunciation is slightly different than modern ancient Hebrew pronunciation. We do not know for certain how Ancient Hebrew was pronounced. For example the letter vav is pronounced with a "v" in modern Hebrew but was more likly pronounced with a "w" hence the often seen transliteration YHWH.Secondly, each of these letters were used as a consonant or a vowel in Ancient Hebrew. For instance, the letter vav (waw) could be a "W," "O" or "U." Thirdly, vowels are frequently used in Hebrew words but not written. For example, the word MLK could be pronounced melek (king, a noun) or malak (to reign, a verb). If the letters in the name were used as consonants we do not know what vowel sounds were associated with name.

The two most common prounciations are Jehovah and Yahweh. Yahweh is a possible translation but not Jehovah as there is no "J" in Hebrew. But, it should be noted that the letter "J" was originally pronounced as a "Y" and Yehovah is a possible translation (if the vav was pronounced with a "w"). Other possible pronunciations include Yehowah, Yahueh, Yihweh, Yahwah and Yahuh.
Hebrew Names in the Bible
Thank you, I have read things like this many times to come to my understanding of the 2 Gods that create in Genesis 1 and 2, + the information that JS has given us, which to me is more insightful than the rest, since he received instruction from God and Jesus, directly, eye to eye and face to face.

All the research and from research to speculation and finally a book or commentary is not worth the knowledge that can be gained in 5 minutes in the presence of God and Jesus.
A Person with the name or title of Elohim was the creator God of Genesis 1. A Person with the name or title of Yahweh was the creator God of Genesis 2. It is written that way in the bible and so I believe the bible and I believe JS.

All the research and guessing as to whether Elohim in the first chapter of Genesis, was a different God or the same God as Yahweh, of the second chapter of Genesis is in one moment swept aside and answered when the Father and the Son came to JS and gave him instructions.

That whole scene and the knowledge gained is the value of a living prophet of God, but only if you believe in prophets of God in our time.
 
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Peter1000

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Just some interesting reading





Hebrew Names of God in the Bible
In our modern culture a title defines the position, or character, of an individual while a name is nothing but an identifier with no meaning. In Hebrew all names are words with meaning and represent the character of the individual. Using English as an example my name, from an Hebraic perspective, could be Jeff, father, husband, son or manager. The first column is the name in Hebrew, the second is an English transliteration, the third is its literal translation and the fourth is a Biblical reference with the name.




אל El mighty one Genesis 14:19

אלוה Elo'ah power Deuteronomy 32:15
אלהים Elohiym powers Genesis 1:1
יהוה Yehu he exists Genesis 4:1
אהוה Ehyeh I exist Exodus 3:14
אדוני Adonai lords Genesis 18:27
אחד Ehhad one Zechariah 14:9
מלך Melekh king Psalm 47:6
אב Av father Isaiah 64:8
מושיע Moshi'ah deliverer Isaiah 45:15
רוח Ru'ahh wind Genesis 1:2
בורא Borey filler Isaiah 40:28
באל Ba'al master Isaiah 54:5
עושה Oseh maker Isaiah 54:5
אל שדי El Shaddai mighty breasts Genesis 17:1
אדוני יהוה Adonai Yehu Adonai of Yehu Genesis 15:2
יהוה אלהים Yehu Elohiym Yehu of Elohiym Genesis 2:4
יהוה יראה Yehu Yireh Yehu sees Genesis 22:14
יהוה נסי Yehu Nisi Yehu is my standard Exodus 17:15
יהוה שלום Yehu Shalom Yehu is completeness Judges 6:24
יהוה צדקנו Yehu Tsid'qanu Yehu is our righteousness Jeremiah 23:6
יהוה צבאות Yehu Tseva'ot Yehu of the armies 1 Samuel 1:3
אלהים צבאות Elohiym Tseva'ot Elohiym of the armies Psalm 80:7

God
heb-anc-sm-lamed.jpg
heb-anc-sm-aleph.jpg
אֵל el
When reading the Bible it is better to have an Ancient Hebrew perception of Elohiym rather than our modern western view. The word el was originally written with two pictographic letters, one being an ox head and the other a shepherd staff. The ox represented strength and the staff of the shepherd represented authority. First, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the strong one of authority. The shepherd staff was also understood as a staff on the shoulders, a yoke. Secondly, the Ancient Hebrews saw Elohiym as the ox in the yoke. When plowing a field two oxen were placed in a yoke, one was the older more experienced one, and the other was the younger and less experienced. The younger would then learn from the older.
The Hebrews saw Elohiym as the older experienced ox and they as the younger that learns from him.

There are three words in Hebrew that are translated as "God." The word "El" (aleph-lamed) is a common Hebrew word that literally means "powerful one" and is used in the Bible for anything with power such as a god (Ex 34:14), a mountain (Ps 36:6) and God (Gen 14:18). The word "elo'ah" (aleph-lamed-vav-hey) is also translated as God but more literally means "one who yokes to another." The root of this word is alah (aleph-lamed-hey) and means an oath in the sense of being a "binding yoke" (Gen 26:28). The third word is elohiym (aleph-lamed-hey-yud-mem) and is the plural form of the word elo'ah (

The Hebrew name for God is a four letter word spelled with four Hebrew letters, yud, hey, vav, hey and transliterated into English as YHVH. There are three problems when trying to find the pronunciation of this name. First, Modern Hebrew pronunciation is slightly different than modern ancient Hebrew pronunciation. We do not know for certain how Ancient Hebrew was pronounced. For example the letter vav is pronounced with a "v" in modern Hebrew but was more likly pronounced with a "w" hence the often seen transliteration YHWH.Secondly, each of these letters were used as a consonant or a vowel in Ancient Hebrew. For instance, the letter vav (waw) could be a "W," "O" or "U." Thirdly, vowels are frequently used in Hebrew words but not written. For example, the word MLK could be pronounced melek (king, a noun) or malak (to reign, a verb). If the letters in the name were used as consonants we do not know what vowel sounds were associated with name.

The two most common prounciations are Jehovah and Yahweh. Yahweh is a possible translation but not Jehovah as there is no "J" in Hebrew. But, it should be noted that the letter "J" was originally pronounced as a "Y" and Yehovah is a possible translation (if the vav was pronounced with a "w"). Other possible pronunciations include Yehowah, Yahueh, Yihweh, Yahwah and Yahuh.
Hebrew Names in the Bible

The Hebrews saw Elohiym as the older experienced ox and they as the younger that learns from him.
Strong's: #410

This is what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches. The older more experienced ox (God and Jesus) teaches the younger ox (all mortal men), and we learn from him. But what does the younger ox learn from the older ox.
They learn to be and do exactly what the older ox is and does, so they can become like him in all ways.

We believe God and Jesus will teach us what is necessary to become just like them, even gods ourselves.
2 Peter 1:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

You see, God and Jesus by their divine power have given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. So that we can be partakers of Their divine nature.

IOW we can become like them in all ways, so thank you for the older ox and younger ox example.
 
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And who devised these stories? A 16 year old farm boy from NY?
Wasn't it the 16 year old farm boy who wrote the book of Mormon and made up the story about the gold tablets? Strange that we don't see those gold tablets in the Smithsonian Museum along with many other historical Christian documents and artifacts. From the picture I saw of the golden tablets, they were conveniently in a ring binder. Perhaps that was the first ring binder ever made!

Interesting thing about this lost tribe of Israel that was supposed to have migrated to America in ancient times. There is no evidence of it; no literature, or any archaeological evidence that they ever existed. No trace of them at all! Only a "revelation" given to JS! I wonder where the revelation came from?
 
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mmksparbud

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Very good question. Where was Job when the foundation of the earth was laid?

Could Job have been one of the morning stars that sang or one of the Sons of God that shouted for joy as the foundations of the earth were being laid? (Job 38:7)

That is a question I ask when I teach the pre-mortal life lessons. So thank you for choosing Job. He certainly got understanding after God confronted him with this great information.

I take it you never really read the book of Job--it is filled with these type of questions, it quite simply is an unanswerable question because the answer is obvious---this is he wasn't anywhere around--that is the point---

Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?


The answers are obviously--no. Only God knows. This is quite the opposite of the pre-birth nonsense. And you weren't there either. And by the way---the whole point of the quote was entirely lost on you----the point being that God says He laid the FOUNDATIONS of the earth. In other words---He created from scratch.
 
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Thank you, I have read things like this many times to come to my understanding of the 2 Gods that create in Genesis 1 and 2, + the information that JS has given us, which to me is more insightful than the rest, since he received instruction from God and Jesus, directly, eye to eye and face to face.

All the research and from research to speculation and finally a book or commentary is not worth the knowledge that can be gained in 5 minutes in the presence of God and Jesus.
A Person with the name or title of Elohim was the creator God of Genesis 1. A Person with the name or title of Yahweh was the creator God of Genesis 2. It is written that way in the bible and so I believe the bible and I believe JS.

All the research and guessing as to whether Elohim in the first chapter of Genesis, was a different God or the same God as Yahweh, of the second chapter of Genesis is in one moment swept aside and answered when the Father and the Son came to JS and gave him instructions.

That whole scene and the knowledge gained is the value of a living prophet of God, but only if you believe in prophets of God in our time.


The only face to face interview JS had was with his mirror. He had zero knowledge of God and those who follow Him, have no idea who He is. He was never human who became a God. He is mightier than you people realize, He creates from nothing, His voice is power. It is He that declared be fruitful and multiply and we owe Satan no note of gratitude for the fall for we were always made to procreate and bear children! If you do not know God, you stand an excellent chance of hearing--
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Any prophet of God, poi9nt to the validity and truthfulness of Gold's Holy Word--never to their own. What a true prophet reveals will always be consistant with the bible. JS fails in all tests of a true prophet of God. Sadly, he has led astray many. But thank God for those that have heard His Holy Spirit through the cloud of confusion and are leaving Mormonism.
 
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He might have or he could have collaberated with someone or plagiarized someone's fiction.
A friend in my younger days who had a really good knowledge of the KJV Bible read through the book of Mormon and recognised many passages that were basically copied out of the Old Testament. He felt that JS more or less plagiarized the Bible and redacted it to fit his own ideas. Much like the JWs getting a group together, not allowing any Greek scholars to be part of it, to write their version of the Bible to suit their doctrines.
 
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Ironhold

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A friend in my younger days who had a really good knowledge of the KJV Bible read through the book of Mormon and recognised many passages that were basically copied out of the Old Testament. He felt that JS more or less plagiarized the Bible and redacted it to fit his own ideas. Much like the JWs getting a group together, not allowing any Greek scholars to be part of it, to write their version of the Bible to suit their doctrines.

Nephi felt Isaiah's writings important enough to literally copy the scrolls he had handy in order to ensure that critical prophecies survived, and it's only logical that Jesus' teachings to the Americas would be very similar.
 
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Rescued One

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Roughing It 1872, pgs. 58-59; All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.” – Mark Twain
http://lifeafter.org/book-of-mormon-mark-twain-chloroform-in-print-mormon-quotes/
 
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mmksparbud

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Roughing It 1872, pgs. 58-59; All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.” – Mark Twain
http://lifeafter.org/book-of-mormon-mark-twain-chloroform-in-print-mormon-quotes/

LOL! I know exactly how he felt!! What got me within a few sentences was how childlike it sounded. There was no depth of thought as with the bible--except for where he basically quoted it.
 
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BigDaddy4

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So if you can prove that 'all' people since Jesus have hated the aposltes of Jesus, then I will believe your 'all' in John 1:3. Go for it, and a heartfelt good luck.
I don't have to prove anything. You made the claim. I showed you what the original language word was for "all". "All" you can do is speculate and make up some "whatabouts", which is not evidence of anything except you can't support your position for John 1:3.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Would you be more mature than to use phrases like "give that a shirl in the theater of your mind". It is not necessary.
It's "whirl", and it's an expression to use your imagination. Our minds can be like watching a movie in a theater. We dream all sorts of dreams, and what we remember can sometimes be compared to having watched a movie or TV show on a theater or TV screen. If you don't like it, substitute "ponder".
1:1 says that Elohim created, not Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus to start with.
Which would contradict John 1:1-3 and is your problem to reconcile.
Again, tell me which day was the earth created after Elohim started creating in 1:3?
It appears you still don't understand the creation account. The earth was created "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1).

We believe that God did hot create things out of nothing. And Jesus, God's son, did not create "all" things out of nothing either.

So if this does not answer your "all" question, let me know.
And that's where your beliefs contradict the Bible. The Bible says Jesus is God (John 1:1, etc). The Bible says all things were created by God (John 1:3, etc.). It's your choice on whether or not to believe the Bible.
 
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