Full Preterist Safe House

mkgal1

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Hello.
This board used to be named the "Unorthodox Theology" board, which are for those views that stray outside of mainstream Christian orthodoxy.
I'm grateful that the name's been changed, because this title is a bit more accurate. I'd actually come to the preterist understanding partly through reading the Greek Orthodox Study Bible - so to say it's "UNorthodox" is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that, in the U.S., "mainstream" is what's gone unorthodox (which probably has to do with the popularity of non-denominational mega churches with no accountability). Do you all recall when Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible answer man) converted to the Greek Orthodox faith? I recall seeing several comments on social media about how he'd "left the faith" and how people needed to "pray for him". SMH.

From Christianity Today: “People are posting this notion that somehow or other I’ve walked away from the faith and am no longer a Christian,” Hanegraaff said on his Tuesday broadcast. “Look, my views have been codified in 20 books, and my views have not changed.” ~ ‘Bible Answer Man’ Converts to Orthodoxy

A specific post on this forum that I remember that caused me to do a lot more reading (because it made Scripture make so much more sense) was this one - from Light of the East:

He wrote: "Okay, that verse makes absolutely no sense at all unless you understand the word "Israel" proper and in its context. "Israel" means "the people of God." It does not mean "Jews." Once you understand that, you will stop making your Zionist mistakes with the Bible as well as denying other parts of the Bible which quite clearly teach that national Israel (i.e., Jews) are no longer in a covenant relationship with God.

In other words, St. Paul is saying that not all Jews who are of the nation of Israel, or "Israelites" are really part of God's people (true Israel). Matthew 21:33-45 also makes it abundantly clear that national Israel has been thrown out of the "vineyard" (i.e. the Kingdom of God) as the husbandmen and replaced by "another nation, bringing forth fruits in due season."

Finally, the Old Covenant is trashed and done by the death of Christ, murdered by the nation He came to redeem and offer Himself as the divine Bridegroom. You cannot have a covenant relationship between two people when one of them is dead. The Old Covenant is over, the veil of the Temple was torn asunder, showing that the covenant was ended and there would be no more Yom Kippur in the Holiest of All. It's done for the Jews.

All the promises of genetics and location are covenant promises. When the Old Covenant was ended with the murder of the Messiah, those promises went by the wayside. You need to get your head around that fact. This is how covenant works.

Again, the promises there are based on fidelity to the covenant. Remember, covenant comes with blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. The killing of the One who is Covenant Head is the maximum you can do to bring curse upon you, and in this case, as the Matthian text shows, that curse is to be "killed" as a nation. Or, as in the case of AD 70 - utterly destroyed.

In other words, St. Paul is saying that not all Jews who are of the nation of Israel, or "Israelites" are really part of God's people (true Israel). Matthew 21:33-45 also makes it abundantly clear that national Israel has been thrown out of the "vineyard" (i.e. the Kingdom of God) as the husbandmen and replaced by "another nation, bringing forth fruits in due season."

Finally, the Old Covenant is trashed and done by the death of Christ, murdered by the nation He came to redeem and offer Himself as the divine Bridegroom. You cannot have a covenant relationship between two people when one of them is dead. The Old Covenant is over, the veil of the Temple was torn asunder, showing that the covenant was ended and there would be no more Yom Kippur in the Holiest of All. It's done for the Jews.

All the promises of genetics and location are covenant promises. When the Old Covenant was ended with the murder of the Messiah, those promises went by the wayside. You need to get your head around that fact. This is how covenant works.

Again, the promises there are based on fidelity to the covenant. Remember, covenant comes with blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. The killing of the One who is Covenant Head is the maximum you can do to bring curse upon you, and in this case, as the Matthian text shows, that curse is to be "killed" as a nation. Or, as in the case of AD 70 - utterly destroyed." The Father Of (Partial Preterism) A Catholic Jesuit "Luis De Alcasar" (1554-1613)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I copied just a few studies off this site mainly concerning the "resurrection" and the hymeanaean hymenaeanism "resurrection already past".

https://www.preteristarchive.com/full-preterism-study-archive/

Below, you will find the following 16 different views of full preterism, in the following alphabetical order, for your information. The person’s name after the view is the name of the one who submitted it

https://www.preteristarchive.com/1890_brown_great-day-of-lord/

To sum the whole into a sentence — with the fall of Jerusalem, the then existing age was ended, the dead were judged, the saints were raised to heaven, and a new dispensation of a world-wide order instituted, of which Christ is everlasting King, and ever present with His people, whether living here or dead beyond.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/1850_crosby_second-advent/

The predictions in the Scriptures of the second coming of Christ, the end of the age, the resurrection of the dead, and the general judgment with its awards, MUST BE EXPLAINED IN A FIGURATIVE OR SPIRITUAL RATHER THAN A LITERAL SENSE.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/19...naeanhymenaeanism-the-charity-of-intolerance/
It is unarguably beyond the pale of orthodox Christianity, and its adherents do not profess continuity with orthodoxy Christianity at these vital points. In this admission we appreciate their honesty.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/1997_sandlin_hymenaeus-resurrected/

The reason HP enjoys an aura of respectability is that it can point to certain predictions whose fulfillment was most likely in A. D. 70 and to texts which posit the intrusion of the eternal eschatological realities back into the present age.

And their word doth eat as a canker: of whom is Hymenæus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:17, 18)
====================================================
I had actually created a thread on 2Tim 2:18 some time back and some of the articles on that site may help with explaining

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]

2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection<386> already to have become<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the faith of-some<5100>.

become/γεγονέναι<1096>
Speech: Verb Parsing: Perfect Infinitive Active


I put a few bible versions up

2 Timothy 2:18
English Standard Version
who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.
Berean Literal Bible
who have gone astray concerning the truth, asserting the resurrection already to have taken place; and they are overthrowing the faith of some.
Young's Literal Translation
who concerning the truth did swerve, saying the rising again to have already been, and do overthrow the faith of some
King James Bible
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
=====================================
Revelation 20 shows the Resurrection.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead no they live until should be being finished<5055> the thousand years.
This the resurrection/ἀνάστασις <386>, the first.

20:5
οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔζησαν ἄχρι τελεσθῇ1 τὰ χίλια2 ἔτη.
αὕτη ἡ ἀνάστασις ἡ πρώτη.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Here is a thread on how Matthew 24 and polling results for those interested. It is still open........

Unfortunately the poll is not working......

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Current Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled
08/28/13

I view all of it fulfilled 37 24.18%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled 62 40.52%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled 21 13.73%

==============================
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled (2)

Current poll results: Sep 14, 2013

View Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled 39 24.38%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled 66 41.25%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled 22 13.75%

I don't really know 15 9.38%

Other [please explain] 8 11.25%
 
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mkgal1

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-- FULL preterism has good explanation of Revelation and Olivet Discourse; but is weak on Thessalonians' passages:

I simply don't believe that has happenned yet - weak explanations have been put forth about someone named Menachen (and someone else also, I got two contradictory explanations by FULLS in the past).
I don't think it's uncommon to get contradictory explanations - but that happens a LOT when it comes to futurism.

As far as 2 Thessalonians 2 - this is what I've read is how most preterists view this passage:

Quoting from linked article:

Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

Vespasian miraculously healed a blind man and a lame man or a man with a withered hand around the time of Titus’ return to Jerusalem to besiege the city and immediately prior to his triumphal entry into Rome as its new emperor literally fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:9: “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders . . .” Three different Roman historians recorded this miracle wherein Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men: “With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion.” Tacitus The Histories 4.81. Suetonius Lives of the Twelve Caesars 10.7." There were also many miracles recorded around the time Titus returned with the Roman army to besiege Jerusalem as well as afterwards when he returned to Rome to celebrate the triumph with his father. ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't think it's uncommon to get contradictory explanations - but that happens a LOT when it comes to futurism.

As far as 2 Thessalonians 2 - this is what I've read is how most preterists view this passage:

Quoting from linked article:

Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

Vespasian miraculously healed a blind man and a lame man or a man with a withered hand around the time of Titus’ return to Jerusalem to besiege the city and immediately prior to his triumphal entry into Rome as its new emperor literally fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:9: “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders . . .” Three different Roman historians recorded this miracle wherein Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men: “With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion.” Tacitus The Histories 4.81. Suetonius Lives of the Twelve Caesars 10.7." There were also many miracles recorded around the time Titus returned with the Roman army to besiege Jerusalem as well as afterwards when he returned to Rome to celebrate the triumph with his father. ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution
Great post.
Most futurists would rather just ignore Josephus and and this sad.
They do not look at his writings to see the divine fulfillment of much of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.
1 example of just many, look at Luke 21 and Reve 13. It is indisputable that Luke 21 and Revelation harmonize.....

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity
into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

  1. *
    Yes
    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No
    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. Maybe
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  5. Does it matter?
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other
    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
 
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Ecclesiastian

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I used to be a Full Preterist but have fallen back to a sort of agnostic Partial Preterism because I don't see a precedent for Full Pret beliefs in Church History. That said the evidence I've seen makes it hard to deny that the Fall of Jerusalem and the involvement of the historical Roman Empire (Given that Revelation literally mentions a City on Seven Hills). were not prophetic fulfillments, and the most rational interpretation of Matthew 24. I also believe that Jerusalem is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation as Jerusalem is "the city that killed the Prophets" according to many scriptures.

I recommend look up Berean Bible Church on YT and watching Curtis' video on John Hagee's 4 Blood Moons. I know the Blood Moons are long gone but in that series I think he does one of the best expositions of Preterist thought. He is a full Preterist, and also has some other vids if those don't wet your whistle.

If you just want a generalistic Partial Preterist sermon by someone who is more-or-less your average Nicene Christian, you could watch "Now That We've Been Left Behind" by Jeff Durbin.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I used to be a Full Preterist but have fallen back to a sort of agnostic Partial Preterism because I don't see a precedent for Full Pret beliefs in Church History. That said the evidence I've seen makes it hard to deny that the Fall of Jerusalem and the involvement of the historical Roman Empire (Given that Revelation literally mentions a City on Seven Hills). were not prophetic fulfillments, and the most rational interpretation of Matthew 24. I also believe that Jerusalem is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation as Jerusalem is "the city that killed the Prophets" according to many scriptures.

I recommend look up Berean Bible Church on YT and watching Curtis' video on John Hagee's 4 Blood Moons. I know the Blood Moons are long gone but in that series I think he does one of the best expositions of Preterist thought. He is a full Preterist, and also has some other vids if those don't wet your whistle.

If you just want a generalistic Partial Preterist sermon by someone who is more-or-less your average Nicene Christian, you could watch "Now That We've Been Left Behind" by Jeff Durbin.
Very informative post JD.

And there is this.

16 different views on FP
......really?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2019_site-updates/


https://www.preteristarchive.com/2016_16-different-views-of-full-preterism/

The heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. - John Owen

16 Different Views of Full Preterism (2016)

Below, you will find the following 16 different views of full preterism, in the following alphabetical order, for your information. The person’s name after the view is the name of the one who submitted it.
16 Different Views of Full Preterism
Compiled by Genuine Preterism, a Facebook group 2016
  1. Charismatic Preterism
  2. Comprehensive Grace/Pantelism
  3. Covenant Eschatology
  4. Essential Body View
  5. Evangelical Preterism
  6. Fulfilled Revelation Theology
  7. Full Revelation Bible View
  8. Israel Only View
  9. Literal Millennial Reign Preterism
  10. Narrative-Critical Fulfilled View
  11. Natural 2 Spiritual View
  12. Perpetual Millennium Preterism
  13. Post-Apocalyptic View
  14. Preterist-Idealist
  15. Synthesis Eschatology/Preterist-Idealist View
  16. Temporary Ekklesia Theory
 
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SkyWriting

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Very informative post JD.

And there is this.

16 different views on FP
......really?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2019_site-updates/


https://www.preteristarchive.com/2016_16-different-views-of-full-preterism/

The heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. - John Owen

16 Different Views of Full Preterism (2016)

Below, you will find the following 16 different views of full preterism, in the following alphabetical order, for your information. The person’s name after the view is the name of the one who submitted it.
16 Different Views of Full Preterism
Compiled by Genuine Preterism, a Facebook group 2016
  1. Charismatic Preterism
  2. Comprehensive Grace/Pantelism
  3. Covenant Eschatology
  4. Essential Body View
  5. Evangelical Preterism
  6. Fulfilled Revelation Theology
  7. Full Revelation Bible View
  8. Israel Only View
  9. Literal Millennial Reign Preterism
  10. Narrative-Critical Fulfilled View
  11. Natural 2 Spiritual View
  12. Perpetual Millennium Preterism
  13. Post-Apocalyptic View
  14. Preterist-Idealist
  15. Synthesis Eschatology/Preterist-Idealist View
  16. Temporary Ekklesia Theory
Prophesy is like warm jello water with ice cubes.
You never know when it will set and even then very hard to pin down.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Prophesy is like warm jello water with ice cubes.
You never know when it will set and even then very hard to pin down.
Nice analogy.............
 
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Vicky gould

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I'm grateful that the name's been changed, because this title is a bit more accurate. I'd actually come to the preterist understanding partly through reading the Greek Orthodox Study Bible - so to say it's "UNorthodox" is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that, in the U.S., "mainstream" is what's gone unorthodox (which probably has to do with the popularity of non-denominational mega churches with no accountability). Do you all recall when Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible answer man) converted to the Greek Orthodox faith? I recall seeing several comments on social media about how he'd "left the faith" and how people needed to "pray for him". SMH.

From Christianity Today: “People are posting this notion that somehow or other I’ve walked away from the faith and am no longer a Christian,” Hanegraaff said on his Tuesday broadcast. “Look, my views have been codified in 20 books, and my views have not changed.” ~ ‘Bible Answer Man’ Converts to Orthodoxy

A specific post on this forum that I remember that caused me to do a lot more reading (because it made Scripture make so much more sense) was this one - from Light of the East:

He wrote: "Okay, that verse makes absolutely no sense at all unless you understand the word "Israel" proper and in its context. "Israel" means "the people of God." It does not mean "Jews." Once you understand that, you will stop making your Zionist mistakes with the Bible as well as denying other parts of the Bible which quite clearly teach that national Israel (i.e., Jews) are no longer in a covenant relationship with God.

In other words, St. Paul is saying that not all Jews who are of the nation of Israel, or "Israelites" are really part of God's people (true Israel). Matthew 21:33-45 also makes it abundantly clear that national Israel has been thrown out of the "vineyard" (i.e. the Kingdom of God) as the husbandmen and replaced by "another nation, bringing forth fruits in due season."

Finally, the Old Covenant is trashed and done by the death of Christ, murdered by the nation He came to redeem and offer Himself as the divine Bridegroom. You cannot have a covenant relationship between two people when one of them is dead. The Old Covenant is over, the veil of the Temple was torn asunder, showing that the covenant was ended and there would be no more Yom Kippur in the Holiest of All. It's done for the Jews.

All the promises of genetics and location are covenant promises. When the Old Covenant was ended with the murder of the Messiah, those promises went by the wayside. You need to get your head around that fact. This is how covenant works.

Again, the promises there are based on fidelity to the covenant. Remember, covenant comes with blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. The killing of the One who is Covenant Head is the maximum you can do to bring curse upon you, and in this case, as the Matthian text shows, that curse is to be "killed" as a nation. Or, as in the case of AD 70 - utterly destroyed.

In other words, St. Paul is saying that not all Jews who are of the nation of Israel, or "Israelites" are really part of God's people (true Israel). Matthew 21:33-45 also makes it abundantly clear that national Israel has been thrown out of the "vineyard" (i.e. the Kingdom of God) as the husbandmen and replaced by "another nation, bringing forth fruits in due season."

Finally, the Old Covenant is trashed and done by the death of Christ, murdered by the nation He came to redeem and offer Himself as the divine Bridegroom. You cannot have a covenant relationship between two people when one of them is dead. The Old Covenant is over, the veil of the Temple was torn asunder, showing that the covenant was ended and there would be no more Yom Kippur in the Holiest of All. It's done for the Jews.

All the promises of genetics and location are covenant promises. When the Old Covenant was ended with the murder of the Messiah, those promises went by the wayside. You need to get your head around that fact. This is how covenant works.

Again, the promises there are based on fidelity to the covenant. Remember, covenant comes with blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. The killing of the One who is Covenant Head is the maximum you can do to bring curse upon you, and in this case, as the Matthian text shows, that curse is to be "killed" as a nation. Or, as in the case of AD 70 - utterly destroyed." The Father Of (Partial Preterism) A Catholic Jesuit "Luis De Alcasar" (1554-1613)
Hi, great discussion. If I might offer an some thoughts. The Lord spoke something’s that coincide with the Jewish wedding. When they way those things are laid out it seems to give a simple but brilliants defense for the so-called futurist view. When the man had decided on who he would marry he came and proposed to her in her fathers house. The future Bridegroom presented his desire to marry the woman and present to her all his promise to her such as returning for her in the future at an unknown time. The Bridegroom would return to his father’s house and would prepare a place for her and he did not return until the Father sends him back for His Bride he returns at that time only the father knew and whisks his Bride away to his fathers house where the Wedding Supper takes place. It is impossible for me not to see these things in the context spoken about our Bridegroom about us.

These events will take place at the Rapture where the Bride is taken by the Bridegroom to the Father’s home where we will spend that Last Week of Years known as the much denied Tribulation is being poured out.
 
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mkgal1

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These events will take place at the Rapture where the Bride is taken by the Bridegroom to the Father’s home where we will spend that Last Week of Years known as the much denied Tribulation is being poured out.
This is a Safe House for those that believe:

That most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.

The rapture, as you're describing it, is NOT a part of the preterist framework.

I'm sharing this article not as an invitation for debate, but for information only:

Quoting linked article:
Farewell to the Rapture


(N.T. Wright, Bible Review, August 2001. Reproduced by permission of the author)

Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus’ second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation? ~ Farewell to the Rapture
 
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Vicky gould

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This is a Safe House for those that believe:

That most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.

The rapture, as you're describing it, is NOT a part of the preterist framework.

I'm sharing this article not as an invitation for debate, but for information only:

Quoting linked article:
Farewell to the Rapture


(N.T. Wright, Bible Review, August 2001. Reproduced by permission of the author)

Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus’ second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation? ~ Farewell to the Rapture

Well I am dumb and ask your forgiveness I must have hit the wrong button and then dove in I was so excited to be getting to hear and speak of things about Christ. Ian kind of like that soldier in apocalypse now who paraphrasing here I love the smell of spiritual things in the morning. I will seek to not err again.i love this site and all I have met so far. Sorry
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Vicky gould said:
These events will take place at the Rapture where the Bride is taken by the Bridegroom to the Father’s home where we will spend that Last Week of Years known as the much denied Tribulation is being poured out.
This is a Safe House for those that believe:
Quoting linked article:
Farewell to the Rapture
(N.T. Wright, Bible Review, August 2001. Reproduced by permission of the author)
Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus’ second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.
The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated.
~ Farewell to the Rapture
Hello mkgal.
Hopefully that Dispenstationalist futurist nonsense will go the way of the do-do bird soon :)
It has been refuted on these boards since the dawn of CF and it still keeps rearing it's ugly head, even in this supposedly safe house thread and hard to believe it is still an "orthodox" view ^_^ :doh:

More links.....thank you Jesus and Josephus........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Also see: Rapture refuted

Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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mkgal1 said:
I'm grateful that the name's been changed, because this title is a bit more accurate. I'd actually come to the preterist understanding partly through reading the Greek Orthodox Study Bible - so to say it's "UNorthodox" is completely inaccurate. It seems to me that, in the U.S., "mainstream" is what's gone unorthodox (which probably has to do with the popularity of non-denominational mega churches with no accountability). Do you all recall when Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible answer man) converted to the Greek Orthodox faith? I recall seeing several comments on social media about how he'd "left the faith" and how people needed to "pray for him". SMH.
Hi, great discussion. If I might offer an some thoughts.
These events will take place at the Rapture where the Bride is taken by the Bridegroom to the Father’s home where we will spend that Last Week of Years known as the much denied Tribulation is being poured out.
Well I am dumb and ask your forgiveness I must have hit the wrong button and then dove in I was so excited to be getting to hear and speak of things about Christ. Ian kind of like that soldier in apocalypse now who paraphrasing here I love the smell of spiritual things in the morning. I will seek to not err again.i love this site and all I have met so far. Sorry
Hello Vicky. It happens.
Feel free to browse this board. Who knows, you may come away from the carnal Darkside of Futurism into the spiritual Light of Preterism. :bow:
In either case, we are all children of the Most High God..........God bless........

tenor.png


yoda-quote-path-to-the-darkside-1068x561.jpg
 
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