Full Preterist Safe House

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hello.
I would highly recommend an very in-debth study on the Covenantle parable of the Rich-man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page The "CROSS" is in between the NC ministry of Life and Grace and the OC is of Death and the Grave/Hades. The 2 Women in Revelation appear to symbolize those, at least to me and why I am what you would call a "New Covenantle Preterist" [did I just come up with a new label?].

The parable mentions 3 of the most important people of the Bible besides God/Jesus of course,

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Residential Bob said:

LLoJ;

For some reason, I felt compelled to resurrect this thread, and scanning the last page, stopped at this post. I think you are right; this is probably the most misunderstood parable.

People tend to get hung up on a vision of hell and heaven, as if they are so close to each other that conversations can transpire between them. The key passage is in the last verse (31).

'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'​

This avers what I have pointed out on these boards before, that Jesus says the law and the prophets ended with John the Baptist who foretold the demise of the Jewish theocracy(Lk 16:16). The scribes and Pharisees who dressed in purple and fine linens and feasted sumptuously would be buried, their kingdom handed to the commoners and publicans from whom even the non-Jews could squeeze benefit (the dogs who licked their sores (v 21)).

Their city and temple trampled and possessed by barbarians, the hierarchy scattered like chaff in the wind while those they pillaged for homage and tribute resided at Abraham's side. The kingdom of the scribes and Pharisees was conferred upon others (Mt 21:43).

All of Christ's parables are about the kingdom (Mt 13:11; Mk 4:11), including this one.

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Thank you for posting Bob.
That parable has is one of the most deepest studies I have on the NT.
I did a search for threads I created on it and it seems it the 1st one was 2006.

1. Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?
   This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed: Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Aug 17, 2017, 178 replies, in forum: General Theology
2. 
   Post
   Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
   Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: General Theology
3. 
   Thread
   What is parable of Lazarus Rich Man about
   A fellow christian told me about a site that appears to say that this parable is actually a prophetic parable about Jesus on the Cross, but also...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Mar 8, 2006, 20 replies, in forum: One Bread, One Body - Catholic
4. 
   Post
   Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)
   This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created. The old thread automatically closed is...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Jan 22, 2013 in forum: General Theology

1. Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?
   Luke 16:24 And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Jun 29, 2018, 50 replies, in forum: Christian Scriptures
2. 
   What about the rich man tormented in a flame Luke 16:24
   Luke 16:24 shows a rich man being tormented in a flame. Why is he there and who is he symbolizing in the Bible? Any views would be appreciated....
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Jun 27, 2018, 1 replies, in forum: Christian Scriptures
3. 
   Post
   Luke 16:19 and the Rich-Man
   I find this parable of Luke 16 rather fascinating as it is the only place in the NT/NC that shows him and a people in a type of "hell". I also...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Jul 31, 2009 in forum: General Theology
4. 
   Post
   Rich Man of Luke 16 symbolizes House of Judah, the Jews?
   What do others think of the one commentator's view concerning the Rich Man symbolizing the House/Nation of Judah, the Jews? The House of Judah...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Mar 18, 2013 in forum: General Theology
5. 
   Post
   Luke 16:24 why is the rich man calling out to Father Abraham?
   I have a question. Why is this rich man in Luke 16 calling out to "father Abraham" in this verse Thanks Lazarus and the Rich...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Feb 25, 2011 in forum: General Theology

LittleLambofJesus said:

Thank you for posting Bob.
That parable has is one of the most deepest studies I have on the NT.
I did a search for threads I created on it and it seems it the 1st one was 2006.

1. Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?
   This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed: Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Aug 17, 2017, 178 replies, in forum: General Theology
2. 
   Post
   Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
   Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: General Theology
3. 
   Thread
   What is parable of Lazarus Rich Man about
   A fellow christian told me about a site that appears to say that this parable is actually a prophetic parable about Jesus on the Cross, but also...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Mar 8, 2006, 20 replies, in forum: One Bread, One Body - Catholic
4. 
   Post
   Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)
   This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created. The old thread automatically closed is...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Jan 22, 2013 in forum: General Theology

1. Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?
   Luke 16:24 And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him...
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Jun 29, 2018, 50 replies, in forum: Christian Scriptures
2. 
   What about the rich man tormented in a flame Luke 16:24
   Luke 16:24 shows a rich man being tormented in a flame. Why is he there and who is he symbolizing in the Bible? Any views would be appreciated....
   Thread by: LittleLambofJesus, Jun 27, 2018, 1 replies, in forum: Christian Scriptures
3. 
   Post
   Luke 16:19 and the Rich-Man
   I find this parable of Luke 16 rather fascinating as it is the only place in the NT/NC that shows him and a people in a type of "hell". I also...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Jul 31, 2009 in forum: General Theology
4. 
   Post
   Rich Man of Luke 16 symbolizes House of Judah, the Jews?
   What do others think of the one commentator's view concerning the Rich Man symbolizing the House/Nation of Judah, the Jews? The House of Judah...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Mar 18, 2013 in forum: General Theology
5. 
   Post
   Luke 16:24 why is the rich man calling out to Father Abraham?
   I have a question. Why is this rich man in Luke 16 calling out to "father Abraham" in this verse Thanks Lazarus and the Rich...
   Post by: LittleLambofJesus, Feb 25, 2011 in forum: General Theology

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I'd say that that is probably one of the more misunderstood parables generally speaking. When I think about it, the parable that most jars preterist sensibilities and that is absolutely, invariably misunderstood among futurists is that of the prodigal son.

Futurists cannot account for all the characters in that story when they try to fit them neatly into a "faith" narrative. As I stress repeatedly, a key to understanding the parables is to understand that their subject is the kingdom, not faith or interpersonal relationships or some other such soft and comfy "safe" topic.

Anto9us, is your perception that Methodists generally are not dispensationalist pre-trib rapture types? That was my experience growing up in the church.

I'm wondering why you are curious about this topic? What is preached in your church?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hello.
I would highly recommend an very in-debth study on the Covenantle parable of the Rich-man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

Click to expand...

Residential Bob said: ↑
LLoJ;

For some reason, I felt compelled to resurrect this thread, and scanning the last page, stopped at this post. I think you are right; this is probably the most misunderstood parable.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Thank you for posting Bob.
That parable has is one of the most deepest studies I have on the NT.
I did a search for threads I created on it and it seems it the 1st one was 2006.

Click to expand...

Residential Bob said:

I'd say that that is probably one of the more misunderstood parables generally speaking. When I think about it, the parable that most jars preterist sensibilities and that is absolutely, invariably misunderstood among futurists is that of the prodigal son.

Futurists cannot account for all the characters in that story when they try to fit them neatly into a "faith" narrative. As I stress repeatedly, a key to understanding the parables is to understand that their subject is the kingdom, not faith or interpersonal relationships or some other such soft and comfy "safe" topic.

Click to expand...

Very informative. Thanks.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.

Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion. First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself. If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up? Additionally, if hell (as it is traditionally taught) is an abyss of fire and brimstone where sinners are tormented forever, does anyone really believe that one drop of water would relieve the pain and anguish of someone suffering in its flames?

These are just some of the difficulties we encounter when we try to make the account of Lazarus and the rich man literal, instead of realizing that it is a PARABLE. If it is a true story, then all of the things Yeshua said must be factual. If all the points of the story are not literal, then we must view this tale as an analogy Yeshua used to teach larger spiritual truths.

Many think that the Messiah spoke in parables to make the meaning clearer for the uneducated people he was teaching. Reflecting this belief, an appendix to the NKJV says that "Jesus' reputation as a great teacher spread far and wide. And no wonder. He taught in parables, simple stories, that made His lessons clear to all who were ready to learn" (p. 1870, "Man for All Times"). Yet the Messiah said his purpose for speaking to the people in parables was exactly the opposite of the explanation cited above:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

.....................

I saw this video in a preterist group I belong to on FB this morning. It's long (about an hour and a half) but it's - what I think - a clear and quite comprehensive explanation of the preterist framework. I'll admit.....I've not even watched all the way to the end yet, but wanted to share anyway:

mkgal1 said:

I saw this video in a preterist group I belong to on FB this morning. It's long (about an hour and a half) but it's - what I think - a clear and quite comprehensive explanation of the preterist framework. I'll admit.....I've not even watched all the way to the end yet, but wanted to share anyway:

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I saw this a year ago or so. It's very good for those from whose eyes the veil is actively being lifted. Foundational information for the young preterist.

According to N.T. Wright, many Evangelicals have misunderstood the Olivet Discourse, seeing Jesus as speaking of the end of the time-space continuum, which is not what Jesus is predicting. He is predicting the end of the current political order of 1st century Palestine, using apocalyptic imagery such as the Son of Man on the clouds, stars falling, etc., none of which is meant to be taken literally, and all of which had specific contextual meanings that are often lost on modern people (imagine the influence astrology used to have, and we can see that stars falling symbolizes a corresponding change on the Earth's political-social order). Otherwise, we are left with too many absurdities that seem to imply Jesus was just a failed prophet, as some liberal scholars have understood it.

I believe that would make Wright some kind of partial preterist, as would a fair number of modern biblical scholars and Christians.

This thread is a Full Preterist safehouse. I seem to be the only one home. The rest of you are just visiting.

Oh, well, pull up a chair. Belly up to the bar (coffee bar). Let's talk full preterism. Or preterism, as I like to say.

Anto9us said:

I would agree that Olivet Discourse speaks of the 'end of the age' (current system, what have you)

Passages about "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and in two"
and Peter saying "elements will melt with a fervent heat" are still seen by me as troubling to Full Pret,

but "apocalyptic imagery"; I don't know how far that can stretch against EVERYTHING literal
but maybe so

"Some standing here who will not taste death til they see Son of Man come in power" could apply to Stephen (who saw that at his death) and John who saw it in vision

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That could refer to Jesus' transfiguration, or perhaps in multiple senses to all those things. The point is Jesus is promising that they will see more cooler stuff than what they have seen, as my pastor said "You ain't seen nothing yet". We do not need to think of the Cistine Chapel's Last Judgement and try to fit that into Jesus' words, as many liberal critics have done.

Residential Bob said:

This thread is a Full Preterist safehouse. I seem to be the only one home. The rest of you are just visiting.

Oh, well, pull up a chair. Belly up to the bar (coffee bar). Let's talk full preterism. Or preterism, as I like to say

Click to expand...

The trouble is - this is the ONLY place I've found to even discuss the topic (and I'm so grateful for this thread)...so, personally, I'm still wrestling with it. I'm new to even understanding the Olivet Discourse as pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem/end of the Temple system (and that did come about from reading N.T. Wright and also watching Ray Vander Laan's studies) - so I still have a LOT of studying to do.

As from what I understand "safehouses" on CF to mean - it's simply a place where others can't come in and debate *against* the topic. I'm always shocked that the idea that God fulfilled what He promised through His prophets is a controversial (and often, disallowed) topic that's wholeheartedly argued against by *Christians* in "free countries".

Anto9us said:

I would agree that Olivet Discourse speaks of the 'end of the age' (current system, what have you)

Passages about "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and in two"
and Peter saying "elements will melt with a fervent heat" are still seen by me as troubling to Full Pret,

Click to expand...

In Orthodoxy they call that Ekpyrosis, a term taken from Stoicism. Perhaps whoever wrote that epistle was familiar with the idea, the dissolution of the world in fire. It does not necessarily have the dark connotations we might give it, it represents renewal. Think of the image of the Phoenix, for instance.

mkgal1 said:

The trouble is - this is the ONLY place I've found to even discuss the topic (and I'm so grateful for this thread)...so, personally, I'm still wrestling with it. I'm new to even understanding the Olivet Discourse as pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem/end of the Temple system (and that did come about from reading N.T. Wright and also watching Ray Vander Laan's studies) - so I still have a LOT of studying to do.

As from what I understand "safehouses" on CF to mean - it's simply a place where others can't come in and debate *against* the topic. I'm always shocked that the idea that God fulfilled what He promised through His prophets is a controversial (and often, disallowed) topic that's wholeheartedly argued against by *Christians* in "free countries".

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Well, it's a full preterist safe house, and partial preterists are arguing against it.

What's the difference between futurism and partial preterism? Both groups of people believe that some prophecy is fulfilled and some is not. This thread might as well be called the futurist Safe House (as if they need one). But really, it should just be the Preterist Safe House. Preterists believe all prophecy is fulfilled.

As to the end of the cult of temple, maybe just consider when Jesus spoke and the apostles wrote. They spoke and wrote in the Jewish Age. Not the church age. Not after the temple burned down. (Except maybe Revelation and even Hebrews and one or two others.) The end of the age they spoke of was obviously the end of the Jewish Age.

Oddly enough, I recently came to a most enlightening conclusion myself after watching a YouTube video in which Mike Miano debated Stephen Whitsett. Miano was weak in his early years as pastor of the Blue Point Bible church, in my opinion, but recently has proved himself a knowledgeable preterist. Except he couldn't answer Whitsett's question - why does the Bible not record the Lord's coming in judgment in 70 AD.

I can answer it. The Bible does record it. That's what the book of Revelation is all about - the revelation of Christ in 70 AD. Christ revealed himself in 70 AD. That is the whole point of Revelation.

Does full preterism deny that Christ will come again? Because if it does, I do not understand how that fits under the Terms of Service for the forum?

Residential Bob said:

Well, it's a full preterist safe house, and partial preterists are arguing against it.

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I don't really see it that way - it seems to be more about expressing questions. IOW - I don't see any dogmatic stances being made - more just questions.....interest.

Edited to add Anto9us's post from the OP:

These are links that some FPs might find helpful.
Being a Full Covenantle Realized Preterist, I find it helpful to see If others agree with my views, and if not, how can they convince me my view is wrong.
[I view Revelation as "Covenantle" between the OC and NC.
The NC in Christi is victorious.]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/full-preterism-study-archive/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/category/full-preterism/

That aside, I have a lot of threads up on CF concerning the Olivet Discourse, Revelation and OT similarities.

You can view them here:

https://www.christianforums.com/search/39594230/

What other great city in the Bible would warrant the praise "HALLELUYAH" by the vast throngs in heaven and earth?

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
‘HalleluYah!
the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;

2 That true and righteous His judgings,
that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the land in Her whoredom,
and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand.

3 And a second time they have declared ‘HalleluYah!
and Her smoke is ascending into the ages of the ages!"

4 And fall the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they worship to the GOD the One sitting upon the Throne, saying, ‘Amen! HalleluYah!"
5 And a Voice came out from the Throne saying:
"Be ye praising to the GOD of us, all ye bond-servants of Him, and those fearing Him,
the small and the great".

6 And I hear as sound of a vast throng and as a sound of many waters and as sound of strong thunders saying:
"HalleluYah!
that reigns Lord, the God *of-us, the Almighty.

Click to expand...

What great City is being symbolized in Revelation?

Is Jerusalem 70 ad the great City in Revelation?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   6 vote(s) 25.0%
2. No
   13 vote(s) 54.2%
3. Maybe
   1 vote(s)
   4.2%
4. Never thought about it that way
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. I don't know, but am willing to learn
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. Why does it matter?
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
7. Other [please explaine]
   4 vote(s)
   16.7%

FireDragon76 said:

Does full preterism deny that Christ will come again? Because if it does, I do not understand how that fits under the Terms of Service for the forum?

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Hello.
This board used to be named the "Unorthodox Theology" board, which are for those views that stray outside of mainstream Christian orthodoxy.

I believe Fulfilled theology is gaining more ground because of the vastness of internet resources on that that view, but also access to a lot of Greek and Hebrew study resources such as lexicons, concordances, interlinears etc, [which as most know here I am heavily into.] and the Holy Spirit can also be beneficial.

I used some of those resources to help harmonize the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:5
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

Click to expand...

And this in Daniel [who is mentioned in only 2 verses of the entire NT]

Daniel 12:4
And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end,
many do go to and fro, and the knowledge is multiplied.’

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what? the sign of Thy parousia,
and the full End<5055> of the Age.

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

The time was so near for the 1st century Jews, that Jesus actually repeats this twice!

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season<2540> Is-Nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this. That the Time/Season<2540> Nigh<1451>, is.

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2540. kairos kahee-ros' of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare 5550.

Used in Matt, Mar, and Luk of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse:

Matthew 24:45
“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household,
to give them food in due time/season<2540>?

Mark 13:33
“Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time/season<2540> is.

Luke19:44
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the time/season<2540> of the visitation<1984> of Thee".