Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

createdtoworship · Mar 7, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
On the one hand, I perfectly understand your insistence for me to make a 'case.' The problem here is that your 'case' has not been 'made' as yet, with the reason being that because of the variable subjectivity which is inherent in the collection of Jewish Rabbinical opinions from the Talmuds, much of which has been written down post hoc, it is very difficult to tell which Rabbis have "gotten it exactly right." And your citation and quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia regarding 'Gehenna' admits this to some degree. So, while I much appreciate your cutting and pasting of various sources for the support of your own argument, you have yet to actually remove the element of subjectivity from your conceptual apparatus of evaluation. You haven't established an objective or absolute method of interpretation. In fact, I'd say it's very difficult for any of us to do so, and there therefore remains, always, some level of subjectivity in the process of interpretation that we will each have to choose an interpretive path when we handle our readings of the Bible. But this doesn't mean there aren't at least some textual 'facts' that, while we may be unaware of them, nevertheless stare us in our literary faces.

Again, I'm not coming at this problem by asserting it as a major contention of biblical doctrine that any one of us as Christians has to believe in any exacting way, because I don't think the Lord has given us enough details through His earliest disciples' (or Apostle's) writings for us to clearly and distinctly discern the nature of Gehenna...or of Hades or of Tartarus. However, I am coming at this problem by asserting first that the immediate context in which we find the "undying worm and fire" comment isn't one that expresses clearly and distinctly, all by itself, a necessary meaning of eternal fire and torture.

Moreover, I should probably be clear that there is more than one 'version' of Annhilationism, and I tend to lean more toward the idea that there is a Hell, but that it (i.e. Hades) and/or its effects will be done away with in the future at some point by God. Whether this happens in some metaphysical cataclysmic movement outside of human history, I'm not sure any one of us can know, and I'm not sure we are meant to know, but we often like to over assert our positions about what the Bible is supposed to mean on this or that point.

Now, going back to the "undying worm and fire" idiom used in Mark 9:44,46,48. We need to exegetically notice some things about the immediate context BEFORE we just assume we can hop, skip and jump over to the Jewish Talmuds or other more modern Rabbis and draw supposed support. And the first thing we need to notice is that this is the only place in the New Testament that this phrase is claimed to be one that Jesus used. It ISN'T used by Matthew or Luke or John. And it becomes a precarious thing for us to then make a final and absolute doctrine out of a comment that is supposedly spoken of my Jesus but is reported second-hand through another author (such as Mark--and really, Mark alone). So, we might keep this in mind. We also might want to ponder, if this idiomatic comment which Jesus lifted from Isaiah 66:24 is so important, why don't we find it used by other New Testament writers?

So, in my estimation, before moving on to the plethora of other 'snowed' issues that one can unleash, we need to deal with this fact...first. If we can't, then we all and each need to admit this.

I apologize, I will not be debating with you anymore. I don't understand your comments and when I politely asked you to make a case, you avoid posting your own views, so I don't normally debate people like that because it's not a conversation anymore, it's a one sided conversation. I only read your first line there. So thanks for posting and perhaps someone else can assist you.

createdtoworship · Mar 7, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Well, there are people (like myself) who believe in "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." This is the view that hell is a very real and literal place but the wicked will eventually be destroyed after the judgment and after they each have paid for their sins committed here upon this Earth.

A common misconception that many make is that they do not realize that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”

Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Side Note:

But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.

Yes sir, we interpret words based on other words. For example if you are talking about a camp fire, then both the wood and the fire are taken literally. So to in the instance of Aion which means age, I have indicated in the OP that there is no verse of aionious that necessitates that forever is not to be used. At least that is how I read it earlier, this is a resurrected debate of mine from five years ago so I may have it wrong. But so too forever usually means forever. It can mean a symbolic forever, but that is the exception not the rule . Context decides which way it is used. So your post does not prove that in the case of hell, forever is not to be taken literally. Thanks for the post

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 7, 2019

l had heard that view came from this parable/story in Luke 16 and perhaps where the RCC got the eternal "hell" doctrine from. I will have to look into this more.......

Eternal concious torment Luke 16's "Rich Man and Lazarus" Parable And HELL

Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry downto a-day shiningly [Revelation 18:12-16]
20 Yet a certain poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the gate of him, having sores-abiding
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
that I am being anguished<3600> in this flame".

3600. odunao od-oo-nah'-o from 3601; to grieve:--sorrow, torment.

Luk 2:48
So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him,
“Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.”
Luk 16:25
“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are sorrowed.
Act 20:38
sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship.

3601. odune od-oo'-nay from 1416; grief (as dejecting):--sorrow.

Rom 9:2
that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
1Ti 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

3602. odurmos od-oor-mos' from a derivative of the base of 1416; moaning, i.e. lamentation:-mourning.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 7, 2019

gradyll said:
I apologize, I will not be debating with you anymore. I don't understand your comments and when I politely asked you to make a case, you avoid posting your own views, so I don't normally debate people like that because it's not a conversation anymore, it's a one sided conversation. I only read your first line there. So thanks for posting and perhaps someone else can assist you.

Actually, if you would have read through my posts, you would have seen that I did begin to 'present' my side. Ironically, I've been reading YOUR posts and I began to address the very first point you presented from your side of the debate. But, I guess you won't be reading my side? If that's not equitable, I don't know what is.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 7, 2019

gradyll said:
Most non christians would rather burn in eternity than be with a God they loathe. Read the OP I explain this all there

You are forgetting one other option. God can destroy them or erase them from existence. This is exactly what is going to happen to the wicked. They will be like the chaff that blows away in the wind.

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”

‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

Bible Highlighter · Mar 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
l had heard that view came from this parable/story in Luke 16 and perhaps where the RCC got the eternal "hell" doctrine from. I will have to look into this more.......

Eternal concious torment Luke 16's "Rich Man and Lazarus" Parable And HELL

Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry downto a-day shiningly [Revelation 18:12-16]
20 Yet a certain poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the gate of him, having sores-abiding
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
that I am being anguished<3600> in this flame".

3600. odunao od-oo-nah'-o from 3601; to grieve:--sorrow, torment.

Luk 2:48
So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him,
“Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.”
Luk 16:25
“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are sorrowed.
Act 20:38
sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship.

3601. odune od-oo'-nay from 1416; grief (as dejecting):--sorrow.

Rom 9:2
that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
1Ti 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

3602. odurmos od-oor-mos' from a derivative of the base of 1416; moaning, i.e. lamentation:-mourning.

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person were being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here.

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented by the heat of the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.

Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).

As for the passage of time in hell:

I find it also inconsistent with God's fair justice (See: Luke 12:48) that He would torment folks for longer periods of time consciously just because they lived in a different point in history, too. I believe the answer is a "Partial Soul Sleep." Meaning, that the wicked go through long periods of sleep in hell and they are awakened at key period points in time through out history.

createdtoworship · Mar 7, 2019

Jason0047 said:
You are forgetting one other option. God can destroy them or erase them from existence. This is exactly what is going to happen to the wicked. They will be like the chaff that blows away in the wind.

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

I have a few verses that prove eternal hell:
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?

Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaniously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...

Rev 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!

Also:

Just as in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah is as it will be at the end. We can agree on this?

Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?

Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.

Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.

SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.

no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.

createdtoworship · Mar 7, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I also do not think anyone deep down honestly thinks eternal torment is fair justice if they truly were to stop and think about it for a while.

Imagine if you and your family visited a foreign country, and one of your children breaks the law by lying. The country's laws say that anyone who lies must be tortured with extreme amounts of pain for the rest of their life. Do you consider that to be fair justice?

Surely not.

Now, imagine hell fire torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes.
Should not the punishment fit the crime?
Can you imagine that poor little old lady who always helped her neighbors and loved her family is going to suffer in hell fire for all eternity because she rejected Jesus in this life? Yes, it is wrong to reject Jesus. I get that. That is a very serious crime. But to torture them for all eternity for such a crime? How exactly is that fair and just? There is no justice system today that acts in such a way.

Maybe you are not aware of it, but Scripture teaches that God is into fair justice (See Luke 12:48).

I used to believe in Eternal Torment, and I even used to defend it; But I found it to be both immoral and unbiblical. I believe back during the time I was a believer in Eternal Torment that I think I read the Bible with more of my mind and a lot less heart. For believers should read the Bible not just with their minds, but with their hearts, too. If we don't do so, we could end up beating our children in an abusive way if we take too literally the phrase: Spare the rod, and spoil the child.

While it is true that the Bible is written in a literal way, it also has many metaphors, too. We should pray for the understanding on this tough issue. We should not be afraid to accept that most churches have it wrong on this particular topic or issue, too. We should truly study to show ourselves approved unto God and not men.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

not sure if you got around to reading the OP so I clipped it here:

see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 8, 2019

JESUS SAYS THESE WORDS TO ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS:

“Then He Will Also Say To Those On The Left Hand, Depart From Me, You Cursed INTO The EVERLASTING FIRE Prepared For The Devil And His Angels:
• Matthew 25:41

The Devil, who deceived them, Was Cast Into The Lake Of Fire And Brimstone Where The Beast And The False Prophet Are. And They Will Be Tormented Day And Night Forever And Ever.
• Revelation 20:10

But the Cowardly, and Unbelieving, and the Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and All Liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8

It's The Same Place.

Butch5 · Mar 8, 2019

gradyll said:
I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it? (I apologize already for the length of this first post) please bear with me.

(this is part one, the logical reason for eternal hell)
Part two and three are the Biblical reasons for Hell.

"SINCE THE BIBLE IS A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT HELL IS A LITERAL PLACE?"

The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a “highly” symbolic one, is a false premise. Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism. Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man’s relationship to his Creator. Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan. As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn’t make the Bible a symbolic book. It is simply a book that contains some symbolism.

In November, 1993, evangelist Billy Graham told Time magazine that he didn’t believe in a literal burning hell. He said that the Biblical hell was “possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be—not fire, but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched.” Graham had no Scriptural authority for making such an assumption. A preacher’s duty is to preach all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not speculate about things that might “possibly” be an “illustration.” To make matters worse, Graham “air conditioned” hell by describing it as merely a “thirst for God,” something that wouldn’t move any sinner to repentance. Why didn’t Jesus describe hell this way, rather than leaving its occupants smoking with fire and brimstone? Graham’s symbolism is unscriptural symbolism, as is that of many other preachers.

When the Bible uses symbolism, it is quite obvious. Jesus once said, “I am the door.” (John 10:9) That statement cannot possibly be taken literally, so it must be taken as symbolism. He also said, “I am the good shepherd.” (John 10:14) Jesus wasn’t literally a shepherd, His followers aren’t literally sheep, and literal wolves (John 10:12) are not a threat to Christians. Those are symbolic terms because they can’t be literal.

Hell, on the other hand, can be literal. Is it possible that a Christian can be a sheep with four legs in a pasture? No, that’s not possible. Is it possible that a literal lake of fire can exist somewhere? Yes, just open any standard text book on physical science, and you can see a lake of fire. For that matter, just run an Internet search on “earth’s core,” and you’ll see plenty.

The term “hell” occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally. Every time hell fire is mentioned in the new testament or old, the literal greek or hebrew word is literal fire. Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” To say that “hell” in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains. Are they symbolic as well? “Maybe they are,” one might suggest. Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible. If that’s the case, then why bother reading it at all? Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain. There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application. The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it’s possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal. If it’s impossible, then it’s symbolic (“I am the door,” etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your attention.

(part three is a section answering some critics of eternal hell)

Is Hell Forever? (definition of aion, aionion)

Universalists and Jehovah's witnesses state that Hell is not eternal because aion means age not forever. Many state that because Aion can mean temporary period of time in greek and not forever that aion ALWAYS means temporary! Wrong! . That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. Just because aion means temporal in one instance does not mean it means that in every instance.

if aion universally means temporary then matthew 25:46 states that eternal life is only temporary because it's the same word for both.

Secondly,

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com

If and only If aion means temporary there would be aspects of God that would be temporary because the same greek word is used for God (aion)

The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)

The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)

God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)

God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)

God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)

God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

ABOVE SECTION BY DON HEWEY OF Temporarily Disabled

DEFINITION OF "aionion" IN OUR VIEW OF HELL

BELOW SECTION BY Matt Slick of carm.org

Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.

To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is greek aionion"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.

With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.

This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)

The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."

The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.

There are some serious reasoning errors within this post. However, before getting there we have to address the more immediate problem. Your argument in this post is based on a false premise. Your argument necessitates that the wicked or unsaved can live forever. You can't have eternal torment if one doesn't live forever. Paul said, that the Father alone has immortality. Therefore, for anyone to live forever requires that God give them life. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. We know from Scripture that that gift is only given to believers. It's not given to the wicked. Nowhere is the Scriptures are we told that the wicked will receive eternal life. Since the wicked aren't receiving eternal life there is no way that the could suffer eternal torment.

Der Alte · Mar 10, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
On the one hand, I perfectly understand your insistence for me to make a 'case.' The problem here is that your 'case' has not been 'made' as yet, with the reason being that because of the variable subjectivity which is inherent in the collection of Jewish Rabbinical opinions from the Talmuds, much of which has been written down post hoc, it is very difficult to tell which Rabbis have "gotten it exactly right." And your citation and quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia regarding 'Gehenna' admits this to some degree. So, while I much appreciate your cutting and pasting of various sources for the support of your own argument, you have yet to actually remove the element of subjectivity from your conceptual apparatus of evaluation. You haven't established an objective or absolute method of interpretation. In fact, I'd say it's very difficult for any of us to do so, and there therefore remains, always, some level of subjectivity in the process of interpretation that we will each have to choose an interpretive path when we handle our readings of the Bible. But this doesn't mean there aren't at least some textual 'facts' that, while we may be unaware of them, nevertheless stare us in our literary faces.
Again, I'm not coming at this problem by asserting it as a major contention of biblical doctrine that any one of us as Christians has to believe in any exacting way, because I don't think the Lord has given us enough details through His earliest disciples' (or Apostle's) writings for us to clearly and distinctly discern the nature of Gehenna...or of Hades or of Tartarus. However, I am coming at this problem by asserting first that the immediate context in which we find the "undying worm and fire" comment isn't one that expresses clearly and distinctly, all by itself, a necessary meaning of eternal fire and torture.
Moreover, I should probably be clear that there is more than one 'version' of Annhilationism, and I tend to lean more toward the idea that there is a Hell, but that it (i.e. Hades) and/or its effects will be done away with in the future at some point by God. Whether this happens in some metaphysical cataclysmic movement outside of human history, I'm not sure any one of us can know, and I'm not sure we are meant to know, but we often like to over assert our positions about what the Bible is supposed to mean on this or that point.
Now, going back to the "undying worm and fire" idiom used in Mark 9:44,46,48. We need to exegetically notice some things about the immediate context BEFORE we just assume we can hop, skip and jump over to the Jewish Talmuds or other more modern Rabbis and draw supposed support. And the first thing we need to notice is that this is the only place in the New Testament that this phrase is claimed to be one that Jesus used. It ISN'T used by Matthew or Luke or John. And it becomes a precarious thing for us to then make a final and absolute doctrine out of a comment that is supposedly spoken of my Jesus but is reported second-hand through another author (such as Mark--and really, Mark alone). So, we might keep this in mind. We also might want to ponder, if this idiomatic comment which Jesus lifted from Isaiah 66:24 is so important, why don't we find it used by other New Testament writers?
So, in my estimation, before moving on to the plethora of other 'snowed' issues that one can unleash, we need to deal with this fact...first. If we can't, then we all and each need to admit this.

Arguments from silence. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
Arguments from silence. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Well said.

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

In order to believe in an eternally burning hell, you have to believe in the immortality of the soul for which there is no biblical proof--it comes from the Greeks. You also must then believe that God did not tell the truth to Adam and Eve, for He never told them that if they ate of the tree, they would burn in hell forever, but only that they would die. Why would God withhold such information from them?

Der Alte · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
In order to believe in an eternally burning hell, you have to believe in the immortality of the soul for which there is no biblical proof--it comes from the Greeks. You also must then believe that God did not tell the truth to Adam and Eve, for He never told them that if they ate of the tree, they would burn in hell forever, but only that they would die. Why would God withhold such information from them?

Actually there are three passages of scripture which mention the unrepentant having some kind of conscious awareness after death. 2 OT 1 NT.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
. . .
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

We can dismiss this as what I refer to as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. But then we must ask ourselves if God would use something false to teach truth to His people?

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
Actually there are three passages of scripture which mention the unrepentant having some kind of conscious awareness after death. 2 OT 1 NT.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
. . .
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
We can dismiss this as what I refer to as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. But then we must ask ourselves if God would use something false to teach truth to His people?

Good grief! Talk about not what the scripture is saying at all!!

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Hell is moved to meet the at they coming---God will raise the wicked dead after the 1000 years to meet their judgement.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
And they will be asking Lucifer the question "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

This says not one word about eternal burning hell or immortality of the soul. Immortal souls is never mentioned in the bible.

Ezekiel 32 is called a Lament over Pharaoh and Egypt---says not one word about everlasting burring hell or immortal souls.

Lazarus is a parable--and the point that Jesus makes is clear---
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is no communicating between the dead and the living, or between the wicked dead and the saved dead--a gulf fixed. If you want to believe the good go to the bossom of Abraham, go ahead--that is one big bossom. A wet fingertip in that kind of burning torment would do nothing! It would burn up before the tongue could be reached!!

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
There is no communicating between the dead and the living, or between the wicked dead and the saved dead--a gulf fixed.

Wrong

After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
Suddenly Moses and Elijah Appeared Before Them, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
While Peter was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown in terror.
Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” He said. “Do not be afraid.” And when they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
• Matthew 17:1-7

Then the woman said, “Whom Shall I Bring Up For You?”
And he said, “Bring Up Samuel For Me.”
When The woman Saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel Said To Saul, “Why Have You Disturbed Me By Bringing Me Up ?”
• 1 Samuel 28:11-15

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Wrong

After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
Suddenly Moses and Elijah Appeared Before Them, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
While Peter was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown in terror.
Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” He said. “Do not be afraid.” And when they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
• Matthew 17:1-7

Then the woman said, “Whom Shall I Bring Up For You?”
And he said, “Bring Up Samuel For Me.”
When The woman Saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel Said To Saul, “Why Have You Disturbed Me By Bringing Me Up ?”
• 1 Samuel 28:11-15

Elijah was translated--never saw death. Moses was resurrected-- Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

That was not Samuel, he was seeing a witch, it was Satan impersonating Samuel.

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

no it just means death

it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire.

it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Get my point, Web-Maker ???

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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In the grip of grace

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Get my point, Web-Maker ???

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