Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

  • no it just means death

    Votes: 8 27.6%
  • it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire.

    Votes: 5 17.2%
  • it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    Votes: 16 55.2%

  • Total voters
    29

createdtoworship

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I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it? (I apologize already for the length of this first post) please bear with me.


(this is part one, the logical reason for eternal hell)
Part two and three are the Biblical reasons for Hell.

"SINCE THE BIBLE IS A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT HELL IS A LITERAL PLACE?"

The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a “highly” symbolic one, is a false premise. Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism. Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man’s relationship to his Creator. Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan. As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn’t make the Bible a symbolic book. It is simply a book that contains some symbolism.

In November, 1993, evangelist Billy Graham told Time magazine that he didn’t believe in a literal burning hell. He said that the Biblical hell was “possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be—not fire, but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched.” Graham had no Scriptural authority for making such an assumption. A preacher’s duty is to preach all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not speculate about things that might “possibly” be an “illustration.” To make matters worse, Graham “air conditioned” hell by describing it as merely a “thirst for God,” something that wouldn’t move any sinner to repentance. Why didn’t Jesus describe hell this way, rather than leaving its occupants smoking with fire and brimstone? Graham’s symbolism is unscriptural symbolism, as is that of many other preachers.

When the Bible uses symbolism, it is quite obvious. Jesus once said, “I am the door.” (John 10:9) That statement cannot possibly be taken literally, so it must be taken as symbolism. He also said, “I am the good shepherd.” (John 10:14) Jesus wasn’t literally a shepherd, His followers aren’t literally sheep, and literal wolves (John 10:12) are not a threat to Christians. Those are symbolic terms because they can’t be literal.

Hell, on the other hand, can be literal. Is it possible that a Christian can be a sheep with four legs in a pasture? No, that’s not possible. Is it possible that a literal lake of fire can exist somewhere? Yes, just open any standard text book on physical science, and you can see a lake of fire. For that matter, just run an Internet search on “earth’s core,” and you’ll see plenty.

The term “hell” occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally. Every time hell fire is mentioned in the new testament or old, the literal greek or hebrew word is literal fire. Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” To say that “hell” in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains. Are they symbolic as well? “Maybe they are,” one might suggest. Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible. If that’s the case, then why bother reading it at all? Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain. There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application. The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it’s possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal. If it’s impossible, then it’s symbolic (“I am the door,” etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your attention.

(part three is a section answering some critics of eternal hell)


Is Hell Forever? (definition of aion, aionion)

Universalists and Jehovah's witnesses state that Hell is not eternal because aion means age not forever. Many state that because Aion can mean temporary period of time in greek and not forever that aion ALWAYS means temporary! Wrong! . That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. Just because aion means temporal in one instance does not mean it means that in every instance.


if aion universally means temporary then matthew 25:46 states that eternal life is only temporary because it's the same word for both.


Secondly,

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com


If and only If aion means temporary there would be aspects of God that would be temporary because the same greek word is used for God (aion)




  1. The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
  2. The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
  3. God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
  4. God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
  5. God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
  6. God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
  7. God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
  8. God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

ABOVE SECTION BY DON HEWEY OF Temporarily Disabled


DEFINITION OF "aionion" IN OUR VIEW OF HELL


BELOW SECTION BY Matt Slick of carm.org


Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.


To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is greek aionion"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.


The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.


With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.


This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:


who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)


The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?


The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.


John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."


The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.


Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."


It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
 

Not David

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Christ revealed to us that He will come at His Second Coming to judge the living and the dead. There is a well-known passage in Holy Scripture about the future Judgment, in which He will separate human beings, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and after an exchange of words, the righteous will go "into eternal life" and the sinners "into everlasting punishment" (St. Matthew 25:46). In the Creed (Symbol of faith) we confess, "And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead."

Before the Second Judgment the bodies of human beings will be resurrected. The first and second resurrections were mentioned earlier. The first resurrection is experienced through Baptism and Holy Communion, and the second resurrection is after Christ's Second Coming, so that the whole human being may live 'eternal well-being' or 'eternal distress.'

The iconography of the Second Coming of Christ shows what Paradise is and what Hell is.

"Please go and find the icon of the Second Coming, and you will see that around Christ are those who are in Paradise. They are in a golden light; the light surrounding them is golden. This same golden light, as it gets further away from Christ, begins to change color, and gradually, the further away it goes, it turns from gold to red; and in the red light are the damned. The saved see Christ in a golden color, and the damned also see Christ from a distance, but they see the Light of Christ as red, because for the former it is the glory of God and for the latter it is the eternal fire, outer darkness and 'the consuming fire.'"

From this point of view, therefore, we Orthodox Christians agree with the most liberal people in the world. No message can be more liberal than that of the Holy Fathers of the Church, who not only stress that, 'Son, we'll all go to the same place', as an old lady told me, but also emphasize that God loves everyone equally: the damned and the saved, the glorified and the saints, Angels and devils, good and bad, prostitutes and chaste...God loves all human beings equally, He loves everyone without distinction. From God's point of view, God saves everyone. He wants the salvation of all human beings, and he has preordained salvation for all.

How do we know this? Because even Hell is salvation (the human being is preserved) and Hell is a way of making perfect, but it is Hell and not Paradise. Because the one who is damned is incapable of progress, he is unable to accept progress towards perfection. Why? Because his conscience has been hardened, his heart has grown hard. He remains so egoistic and self-centered that his personality cannot develop from selfishness to unselfishness. Since he cannot develop anymore, he is perfected in his selfishness. Even Hell is evil for him. Although it is not punishment from God's point of view, it is punishment from the human point of view.

In other words, the man has remained uncured. Why? Because his heart needed to be cured, his heart or his nous (soul) was sick, and they did not receive treatment. But where does this treatment begin, how does it take place and how a human being secure it? In the Orthodox Christian experience, treatment begins here in this world."

In the Western (Roman Catholic and Protestant) tradition about Paradise and Hell, we see view that differ from the Orthodox Christian teaching.

"Augustine's teachings about absolute predestination Hell and Paradise were based on those perceptions that he had, his legalistic views about the Fall of man and sin, combined with his neoplatonicperception of Paradise. He introduced into Christianity the idea that Hell is the subterranean regions underneath the earth, where people go to be punished. Paradise is outer space.

In those days they believed that things that were immutable were beyond the heavenly bodies, where there is no movement and no development, and that here on earth is the place of testing. So if we are good boys and girls we shall go to Paradise above the stars and the sky; and if we are bad we shall go under the earth to be punished in the subterranean regions."

Paradise in the Western (Latin or Roman Catholic) tradition was connected with the soul's happiness and the satisfaction of its desires.

"In the Orthodox Christian Tradition there is nothing like this. Why? Because man's destiny is not happiness; it is not satisfaction of his desires. The Holy Fathers do not teach that God will become man's possession or that man can use God--let alone his fellow human being--for his own happiness.

The capitalistic foundations that exist within the philosophy of medieval feudalism originate from Augustine, but mainly from the ancient Greeks. The teaching about the pursuit of happiness (eudemonism) started from the ancient Greeks, from Plato and Aristotle, with some opposition from the Stoics and the Epicureans. In the Christian tradition of the West, however, Aristotle and Plato prevailed. These elements do not exist in patristic theology."

In our own Holy Tradition, the human being is eternally advancing to higher stages of perfection. For us history never stops There is the history of the saints and there is also the eternal history of man. The fact that Christ was Resurrected with His Body and that Christ is fully human until now and for ever and ever means that Christ, His Body and His human nature, is part of history. Has His Body not acted continually until this day? There has been a succession of actions; the energies of the Body of Christ have not ceased. So the Body of Christ is an inseparable part of history, which is a guarantee that history is eternal.History will not come to a halt; although a number of theologians who believe in Plato say nowadays that history will cease. No, history will not come to a halt. Why will history not cease? Because the Body with which Christ was resurrected will exist for ever, and we shall be resurrected with bodies. We shall not be merely souls in paradise. We shall be complete human beings.

Then Westerners speak about Paradise and Hell from the standpoint of justice. This is sociological interpretation of eternal life...

"...Holy Scripture uses the words 'light' and 'dark cloud' to describe the state of the just, and the words 'fire' and 'darkness' to describe the state of sinners. We know, however, that the light is different from the dark cloud that covers the light. And fire is the opposite of darkness, because fire chases away darkness and illuminates the surroundings.

This shows that there are not created words to express uncreated reality absolutely. The Eternal Divine Light and the Eternal Life are uncreated. They are the energy of God that is experienced by human beings as illuminating or burning energy, depending on their spiritual state.

"All human beings will see the glory of God, and from this point of view they have the same end. Everyone will certainly see the glory of God, the difference being that, whereas the saved will see the glory of God as sweetest light without evening, the damned will see the same glory of God as consuming fire, as fire that will burn them.It is a true and predictable fact that we shall all see the glory of God. Seeing God, that is to say, His glory and His Light, is something that will happen whether we want it or not. The experience of this Light, however, will be different for the two categories.

The work of the Church and the priests is not to help us to see this glory, because that will happen in any case. The work of the Church centers on how each one will see God. Not on whether he will see God. In other words, the task of the Church is to preach to people that the true God exists, that God is revealed either as light or as consuming fire, and that at the Second Coming of Christ all of us will see God. And it must prepare its members so that they see God not as fire but as light."

The Church does not send anyone to Paradise or to Hell, but it prepares the faithful for the vision of Christ in glory, which everyone will have. God loves the damned as much as the Saints. He wants all to be cured, but not all accept the cure that He offers.

Paradise and Hell do not exist from the point of view of God, but from the point of view of human beings. God will love everyone equally. He will send His grace to all, in the same way as He will send His grace to all, in the same way as He "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Saint Matthew 5:45). But everyone will not accept God's grace in the same way. Some will see God as Light and other as fire. The same will happen as with Holy Communion. For those who prepare themselves appropriately, Holy Communion is "for eternal life", but for those who have "not been purified, Holy Communion is for judgment and condemnation…"

"...When someone reaches the point of seeing the glory of God after having gone through purification of the heart and reaching illumination, this illuminated human being sees the glory of God as light. But when someone who has not reached this Light, he sees it as consuming fire. Instead of seeing God as Light, he sees God as consuming fire."

"We know that if an Orthodox Christian who does not prepare himself correctly and reaches the point that his heart is hardened, he will see God as a consuming fire."

"Contrary to Augustine's ideas about Paradise and Hell, according to the other Fathers of the Church in both East and West, Hell and Paradise are the same thing. There is no difference at all. When someone sees God's glory with unselfish love, he sees God as paradise, and this is paradise…"

"The uncreated glory, which Christ has by nature from the Father, is paradise for those who self-centered and selfish love has been cured and transformed into unselfish love.However, the same glory is uncreated eternal fire and hell for those who have chosen to remain uncured in their selfishness."
 
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redleghunter

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2PhiloVoid

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I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

First off, brother gradyll, I'm not going to attempt to knock you on your theological keaster. Both of us can agree, I think, that God is Just and being that He is the Creator, He has the right to evaluate and judge as He thinks is appropriate with His own Creation. It could be that my reasons for saying so will differ from yours since I don't subscribe to Divine Command Theory, but we can be in general agreement that, even if we were to approach your OP thesis hypothetically, I would say that God would be just in creating an eternal hell. My reasons for NOT accepting the concept of an eternal hell come from hermeneutical differences rather than from grieved sensibilities that emerge from more modern notions of human rights.

In this case, my critique begins with your beginning point by looking at the very phrase you've cited wherein "the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched."

In referring to this phrase, I think it would behoove us to attempt best exegetical practice, and in doing so, we both should recognize from where this phrase has been lifted by either Jesus and/or the gospel writer, Mark. Then, we need to seriously think about "why" Jesus was using this phrase, "how" it may have been used by him as a Jewish idiom derived from its original reference, and deliberate further over its intended meaning if it was indeed a reappropriated referential insinuation applied to His immediate audience at the time.

What we can't do is just open the Bible, read this phrase about "undying worms" and "unquenchable fire" and then slap our Bible's closed and tell ourselves, "the Bible says it, so I believe it." Because to simply read this phrase and then jump to the conclusion that it MUST by all necessity refer to some eternal abode of worms and fire ... could be a non-sequitur of gross proportions.

With all of this in mind, together in our praxis of interpretation, we have to ask: from where in the earlier portions of the Bible did Jesus find and lift this phrase? And what was its meaning in its original, more ancient context?
 
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Erik Nelson

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From the Orthodox Study Bible commentary for Matthew 10:28.

Think there's an important typo in the first line??

But the Jewish image of hellfire was the CEASELESSLY SMOLDERING garbage dump south of the city

it was a landfill fire that burned for centuries

wp_ss_20190307_0001.png
 
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createdtoworship

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First off, brother gradyll, I'm not going to attempt to knock you on your theological keaster. Both of us can agree, I think, that God is Just and being that He is the Creator, He has the right to evaluate and judge as He thinks is appropriate with His own Creation. It could be that my reasons for saying so will differ from yours since I don't subscribe to Divine Command Theory, but we can be in general agreement that, even if we were to approach your OP thesis hypothetically, I would say that God would be just in creating an eternal hell. My reasons for NOT accepting the concept of an eternal hell come from hermeneutical differences rather than from grieved sensibilities that emerge from more modern notions of human rights.

In this case, my critique begins with your beginning point by looking at the very phrase you've cited wherein "the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched."

In referring to this phrase, I think it would behoove us to attempt best exegetical practice, and in doing so, we both should recognize from where this phrase has been lifted by either Jesus and/or the gospel writer, Mark. Then, we need to seriously think about "why" Jesus was using this phrase, "how" it may have been used by him as a Jewish idiom derived from its original reference, and deliberate further over its intended meaning if it was indeed a reappropriated referential insinuation applied to His immediate audience at the time.

What we can't do is just open the Bible, read this phrase about "undying worms" and "unquenchable fire" and then slap our Bible's closed and tell ourselves, "the Bible says it, so I believe it." Because to simply read this phrase and then jump to the conclusion that it MUST by all necessity refer to some eternal abode of worms and fire ... could be a non-sequitur of gross proportions.

With all of this in mind, together in our praxis of interpretation, we have to ask: from where in the earlier portions of the Bible did Jesus find and lift this phrase? And what was its meaning in its original, more ancient context?
thanks for the comment, please make your case that "the worm dieth not" is not referring to a literal hell.
 
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createdtoworship

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First off, brother gradyll, I'm not going to attempt to knock you on your theological keaster. Both of us can agree, I think, that God is Just and being that He is the Creator, He has the right to evaluate and judge as He thinks is appropriate with His own Creation. It could be that my reasons for saying so will differ from yours since I don't subscribe to Divine Command Theory, but we can be in general agreement that, even if we were to approach your OP thesis hypothetically, I would say that God would be just in creating an eternal hell. My reasons for NOT accepting the concept of an eternal hell come from hermeneutical differences rather than from grieved sensibilities that emerge from more modern notions of human rights.

In this case, my critique begins with your beginning point by looking at the very phrase you've cited wherein "the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched."

In referring to this phrase, I think it would behoove us to attempt best exegetical practice, and in doing so, we both should recognize from where this phrase has been lifted by either Jesus and/or the gospel writer, Mark. Then, we need to seriously think about "why" Jesus was using this phrase, "how" it may have been used by him as a Jewish idiom derived from its original reference, and deliberate further over its intended meaning if it was indeed a reappropriated referential insinuation applied to His immediate audience at the time.

What we can't do is just open the Bible, read this phrase about "undying worms" and "unquenchable fire" and then slap our Bible's closed and tell ourselves, "the Bible says it, so I believe it." Because to simply read this phrase and then jump to the conclusion that it MUST by all necessity refer to some eternal abode of worms and fire ... could be a non-sequitur of gross proportions.

With all of this in mind, together in our praxis of interpretation, we have to ask: from where in the earlier portions of the Bible did Jesus find and lift this phrase? And what was its meaning in its original, more ancient context?

From the Orthodox Study Bible commentary for Matthew 10:28.

Think there's an important typo in the first line??

But the Jewish image of hellfire was the CEASELESSLY SMOLDERING garbage dump south of the city

it was a landfill fire that burned for centuries

View attachment 252502

here is a quote from another thread:

Here is credible, verifiable, historical evidence refuting two false asssertions people make. 1. That Greek and Hebrew words have been wrongfully translated "hell." 2. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. The Greek word Tartarus does not occur in Numbers 16. The rebellious Israelites were thrown into hades not Tartarus in Numbers 16:33 in the Greek Septuagint.


Based on historical evidence the…view being presented…is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.


Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna


The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]


It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).


But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]


As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).



Jewish Encyclopedia Online

====================================================================

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.


The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."


Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

===============================================

"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.


Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992


Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1"

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.


“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)"


"G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:


“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)"


From DerAlter:

Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)


(also I wanted to add my own research as well regarding this:)

. I do however have Jewish Scholarship as well that backs up the fact that in the day and age of Christ, the Jewish view of gehennah, was not a garbage heap, but was a fiery torturous hell. With more detail than I would put in a horror film. It's not a pretty picture, gehennah. Anyway, I will go ahead and post it, since I told you about it:


Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbinic Pastor, ordination by Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Adjunct Faculty, Department of Religion, La Salle University, Philadelphia, Pa., Spiritual Director (1999-2009, Ph.D., Psych, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, Ca.


and he states that gehennah was in fact more than simply a garbage dump, (which actually is innacurate to say the least- as there is no evidence of garbage in the valley of hinnom) anyways...


according to jewish tradition there were seven levels/names of gehennah, and one of them was sheol. ANyway here is an excerpt of it while he quotes from the traditional texts of the apocrypha to gain context and bearings of this tradition:


" Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment



Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature—referred to as “Tours of Hell”32—that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the “tour of hell” given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.

First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on “the great day of judgment” even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).

Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: “Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation—in darkness, nets and burning flame” (1 Enoch 103:7).

Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol



While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed “Tour of Hell” motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.

Fire and Burning



In numerous places Gehenna is described as an “abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is “a burning worse than fire” (1 Enoch 100:9).

We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:

Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)

In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:

And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)"



above from:


Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (p. 43). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.


now, granted sheol, gehennah was only a prison for 12 months according to jewish tradition, some people got eternal hell:


"However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna “for all generations” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only “one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor” descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b)."



above from:


Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.


THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA acknowledges the 12 month max but at the same time also talks of eternal gehenna for heretics, adulterers etc:

"after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

…The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

Above from : GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

so it was this context of rabbinical settings that Jesus came and said, "hey you know gehennah? The one the scribes talk about? It is that place that even liars will go to, and it's duration will be forever! NOTE: I don't take the rabinnical view that Hell is torture, I take it literally as the KJV states - torment (more on that difference later)





Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College


only after the sixth century B.C.E . do any conceptions of an afterlife fate for the individual begin to appear within Judaism.


Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, copyright 6/15/2009. Jewish Views of the Afterlife , Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.
 
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thanks for the comment, please make your case that "the worm dieth not" is not referring to a literal hell.

This isn't a court of law. I asked you some questions. Now, since you're the one who began the thread, in my estimation, it is YOU who needs to answer. Not me. And if all you're going to do is attempt to 'snow' me with odds and ends of unreliable (and as your reference admits) Rabbinical materials from the Talmud(s), which is always questionable as to whether they actually reflect or even could reflect earlier beliefs of Israel's leaders, then we're basically all snow-blind here.

No, I won't make a case. While I'm not against referring to the Talmuds and the Mishnah to draw out various PATTERNS of interpretation that were not uncommon among Jews of Jesus' time or earlier, I refuse to rely upon them as some kind of 'final authority.' So, please, let's not give the Jews ALL of the authority here, because God never gave it ALL to them in the first place, if we read the Old Testament in full, we can understand this (regardless of what claims are made by them for a previous Oral Tradition among themselves that may or may not have been authentic).

So, again. My questions, please: from where in the earlier portions of the Bible did Jesus find and lift this phrase? And what was its meaning in its original, more ancient context?

Answer: Isaiah 66:24. And what was the original meaning as can be seen just by its own context? Answer: Certain people will stay dead.
 
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This isn't a court of law. I asked you some questions. Now, since you're the one who began the thread, in my estimation, it is YOU who needs to answer. Not me. And if all you're going to do is attempt to 'snow' me with odds and ends of unreliable (and as your reference admits) Rabbinical materials from the Talmud(s), which is always questionable as to whether they actually reflect or even could reflect earlier beliefs of Israel's leaders, then we're basically all snow-blind here.

No, I won't make a case. While I'm not against referring to the Talmuds and the Mishnah to draw out various PATTERNS of interpretation that were not uncommon among Jews of Jesus' time or earlier, I refuse to rely upon them as some kind of 'final authority.' So, please, let's not give the Jews ALL of the authority here, because God never gave it ALL to them in the first place, if we read the Old Testament in full, we can understand this (regardless of what claims are made by them for a previous Oral Tradition among themselves that may or may not have been authentic).

So, again. My questions, please: from where in the earlier portions of the Bible did Jesus find and lift this phrase? And what was its meaning in its original, more ancient context?

Answer: Isaiah 66:24. And what was the original meaning as can be seen just by its own context? Answer: Certain people will stay dead.
well we don't have to take the jews word for it. I don't, I simply believe the text. But I presented my case, and you decided you didn't agree with it, so you have to make your case. I cannot state your case for you.
 
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I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

Well, there are people (like myself) who believe in "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." This is the view that hell is a very real and literal place but the wicked will eventually be destroyed after the judgment and after they each have paid for their sins committed here upon this Earth.

A common misconception that many make is that they do not realize that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Side Note:

But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.
 
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I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

I also do not think anyone deep down honestly thinks eternal torment is fair justice if they truly were to stop and think about it for a while.

Imagine if you and your family visited a foreign country, and one of your children breaks the law by lying. The country's laws say that anyone who lies must be tortured with extreme amounts of pain for the rest of their life. Do you consider that to be fair justice?

Surely not.

Now, imagine hell fire torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes.
Should not the punishment fit the crime?
Can you imagine that poor little old lady who always helped her neighbors and loved her family is going to suffer in hell fire for all eternity because she rejected Jesus in this life? Yes, it is wrong to reject Jesus. I get that. That is a very serious crime. But to torture them for all eternity for such a crime? How exactly is that fair and just? There is no justice system today that acts in such a way.

Maybe you are not aware of it, but Scripture teaches that God is into fair justice (See Luke 12:48).

I used to believe in Eternal Torment, and I even used to defend it; But I found it to be both immoral and unbiblical. I believe back during the time I was a believer in Eternal Torment that I think I read the Bible with more of my mind and a lot less heart. For believers should read the Bible not just with their minds, but with their hearts, too. If we don't do so, we could end up beating our children in an abusive way if we take too literally the phrase: Spare the rod, and spoil the child.

While it is true that the Bible is written in a literal way, it also has many metaphors, too. We should pray for the understanding on this tough issue. We should not be afraid to accept that most churches have it wrong on this particular topic or issue, too. We should truly study to show ourselves approved unto God and not men.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.
 
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well we don't have to take the jews word for it. I don't, I simply believe the text. But I presented my case, and you decided you didn't agree with it, so you have to make your case. I cannot state your case for you.

On the one hand, I perfectly understand your insistence for me to make a 'case.' The problem here is that your 'case' has not been 'made' as yet, with the reason being that because of the variable subjectivity which is inherent in the collection of Jewish Rabbinical opinions from the Talmuds, much of which has been written down post hoc, it is very difficult to tell which Rabbis have "gotten it exactly right." And your citation and quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia regarding 'Gehenna' admits this to some degree. So, while I much appreciate your cutting and pasting of various sources for the support of your own argument, you have yet to actually remove the element of subjectivity from your conceptual apparatus of evaluation. You haven't established an objective or absolute method of interpretation. In fact, I'd say it's very difficult for any of us to do so, and there therefore remains, always, some level of subjectivity in the process of interpretation that we will each have to choose an interpretive path when we handle our readings of the Bible. But this doesn't mean there aren't at least some textual 'facts' that, while we may be unaware of them, nevertheless stare us in our literary faces.

Again, I'm not coming at this problem by asserting it as a major contention of biblical doctrine that any one of us as Christians has to believe in any exacting way, because I don't think the Lord has given us enough details through His earliest disciples' (or Apostle's) writings for us to clearly and distinctly discern the nature of Gehenna...or of Hades or of Tartarus. However, I am coming at this problem by asserting first that the immediate context in which we find the "undying worm and fire" comment isn't one that expresses clearly and distinctly, all by itself, a necessary meaning of eternal fire and torture.

Moreover, I should probably be clear that there is more than one 'version' of Annhilationism, and I tend to lean more toward the idea that there is a Hell, but that it (i.e. Hades) and/or its effects will be done away with in the future at some point by God. Whether this happens in some metaphysical cataclysmic movement outside of human history, I'm not sure any one of us can know, and I'm not sure we are meant to know, but we often like to over assert our positions about what the Bible is supposed to mean on this or that point.

Now, going back to the "undying worm and fire" idiom used in Mark 9:44,46,48. We need to exegetically notice some things about the immediate context BEFORE we just assume we can hop, skip and jump over to the Jewish Talmuds or other more modern Rabbis and draw supposed support. And the first thing we need to notice is that this is the only place in the New Testament that this phrase is claimed to be one that Jesus used. It ISN'T used by Matthew or Luke or John. And it becomes a precarious thing for us to then make a final and absolute doctrine out of a comment that is supposedly spoken of my Jesus but is reported second-hand through another author (such as Mark--and really, Mark alone). So, we might keep this in mind. We also might want to ponder, if this idiomatic comment which Jesus lifted from Isaiah 66:24 is so important, why don't we find it used by other New Testament writers?

So, in my estimation, before moving on to the plethora of other 'snowed' issues that one can unleash, we need to deal with this fact...first. If we can't, then we all and each need to admit this.
 
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createdtoworship

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I also do not think anyone deep down honestly thinks eternal torment is fair justice if they truly were to stop and think about it for a while.

Imagine if you and your family visited a foreign country, and one of your children breaks the law by lying. The country's laws say that anyone who lies must be tortured with extreme amounts of pain for the rest of their life. Do you consider that to be fair justice?

Surely not.

Now, imagine hell fire torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes.
Should not the punishment fit the crime?
Can you imagine that poor little old lady who always helped her neighbors and loved her family is going to suffer in hell fire for all eternity because she rejected Jesus in this life? Yes, it is wrong to reject Jesus. I get that. That is a very serious crime. But to torture them for all eternity for such a crime? How exactly is that fair and just? There is no justice system today that acts in such a way.

Maybe you are not aware of it, but Scripture teaches that God is into fair justice (See Luke 12:48).

I used to believe in Eternal Torment, and I even used to defend it; But I found it to be both immoral and unbiblical. I believe back during the time I was a believer in Eternal Torment that I think I read the Bible with more of my mind and a lot less heart. For believers should read the Bible not just with their minds, but with their hearts, too. If we don't do so, we could end up beating our children in an abusive way if we take too literally the phrase: Spare the rod, and spoil the child.

While it is true that the Bible is written in a literal way, it also has many metaphors, too. We should pray for the understanding on this tough issue. We should not be afraid to accept that most churches have it wrong on this particular topic or issue, too. We should truly study to show ourselves approved unto God and not men.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.
please read the OP, the first section. I fully make a rational case for eternal torment there. Yes I think eternal hell fire is the more compassionate version of hell. I would have made it much worse.
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, there are people (like myself) who believe in "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." This is the view that hell is a very real and literal place but the wicked will eventually be destroyed after the judgment and after they each have paid for their sins committed here upon this Earth.

A common misconception that many make is that they do not realize that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Side Note:

But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.
I am about ready to head to work, so I will not be able to reply today, perhaps tomorrow morning. Thanks for posting your point of view.
 
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please read the OP, the first section. I fully make a rational case for eternal torment there. Yes I think eternal hell fire is the more compassionate version of hell. I would have made it much worse.

The problem is that ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is not compassionate because it punishes the wicked with crazy amounts of pain for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. You forget, I use to try and defend ECT. There is no compassion in ECT. It's burn you alive forever for all eternity. That's not compassion. You have a funny view of compassion if you think ECT is compassionate. Even when I was an ECT Proponent, I never said such a thing. I usually tried to avoid the moral issue when people brought it up. Your post is crazy long. Surely you can just explain it here in a sentence or two, my friend; Or you can quote that portion of your post that is the most convincing to prove your moral argument.
 
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createdtoworship

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The problem is that ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is not compassionate because it punishes the wicked with crazy amounts of pain for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. You forget, I use to try and defend ECT. There is no compassion in ECT. It's burn you alive forever for all eternity. That's not compassion. You have a funny view of compassion if you think ECT is compassionate. Even when I was an ECT Proponent, I never said such a thing. I usually tried to avoid the moral issue when people brought it up. Your post is crazy long. Surely you can just explain it here in a sentence or two, my friend; Or you can quote that portion of your post that is the most convincing to prove your moral argument.
Most non christians would rather burn in eternity than be with a God they loathe. Read the OP I explain this all there
 
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