Why the disciples and not Mary could touch Jesus after he rose

psalm911 said:

2 Corinthians 6:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

John 20:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary could not touch Jesus after he rose because she was unclean, which is to say, she was not yet baptized into Christ.


John 20:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

His disciples could touch him because they were baptized.
He only baptized the twelve although he was said to be baptizing more than John.

John 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)


John 13:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

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Women were never allowed to touch the sacrifice. Mainly in case they were menstruating and were ritually unclean.

psalm911 said:

Mary could not touch Jesus after he rose because she was unclean, which is to say, she was not yet baptized into Christ.

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The words of Jesus in John 20:17 can be translated as "do not hold me" (so Jesus wanted her to let Him go).

psalm911 said:

His disciples could touch him because they were baptized.
He only baptized the twelve although he was said to be baptizing more than John.

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Thomas should touch him, because this was the proof he had asked for. As to baptism, there is a misunderstanding:

psalm911 said:

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

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That says: The many who were baptized "by Jesus" were actually not baptized by Jesus himself, but by His disciples. If you read the bible in my mother tongue, you would never arrived at your conclusion, AFAIK it is also impossible in the original language.

There is no record of the 12 being baptized (though from John 1:35-40 we may infer that Andrew had been baptized by John). In John 13,10, this is not about being baptized, because as we can see in John 15:3 - Jesus says the disciples are clean because of the word He spoke to them.

EDIT: Made a mistake in inserting wrong references, and then thought the OP to be another one I discussed with in another thread. Sorry, I corrected this now.

psalm911 said:

2 Corinthians 6:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

John 20:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary could not touch Jesus after he rose because she was unclean, which is to say, she was not yet baptized into Christ.


John 20:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

His disciples could touch him because they were baptized.
He only baptized the twelve although he was said to be baptizing more than John.

John 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)


John 13:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

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Mary could not touch him because he had not yet ascended to sprinkle his blood on the Altar that sits within the second apartment before the throne of God. This is why he tells her to inform the Aposltes that he is going up to see the father in heaven.
John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After he had sprinkled his blood he returned to earth and was then able to be touched since the sacrifice and blood atonement had already been made/completed.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Mary could not touch him because he had not yet ascended to sprinkle his blood on the Altar that sits within the second apartment before the throne of God. After he had sprinkled his blood he returned to earth and was then able to be touched since the sacrifice and blood atonement had already been made/completed.

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Oh, from which part of Scripture did you derive this?

helmut said:

Oh, from which part of Scripture did you derive this?

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From several parts, but the ones we were speaking of from the OP came from John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He could not be touched before his ascenion to see the father and make the blood atonement for sin on the altar in the Second Apartment that sits before the throne of God. After he made the Atonement he returns(being sent by the father) to speak once again withe Apostles and is then able to be touched.

There could be no edification from the firstfruits until they had been waved before the Lord and accepted by Him.
The significance of the waving of a sheaf offering of the first-fruits is its newness as the very first of the first-fruits of the harvest.
Accepting Christ as our Passover, we also accept him as the first-fruit offering. This leads up to “The Feast of First-Fruits” otherwise known as “Pentecost”.

Leviticus 23:14
You shall eat no bread or parched grain or fresh ears until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.

The timing of the ascension to the Father of Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice of the unblemished first-fruits lamb occurred at the same time. Just as the timing of the Messiah giving his life for mankind occurred at the same time as the unblemished Passover lamb was sacrificed.
The single male lamb without blemish is a commanded sacrifice on only two set apart feast dates. One being the Passover lamb and the other being, the Wave Offering lamb.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

From several parts, but the ones we were speaking of from the OP came from John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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We agree that He wanted to ascend to the father, but whether it was on touching or on holding Him back, we are not united. And the sprinkling thing - this is not certainly testified, other views are possible.

HTacianas said:

Women were never allowed to touch the sacrifice. Mainly in case they were menstruating and were ritually unclean.

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Ridiculous, and misogynistic.

He is just telling Mary that he has places to go, and so does she. That is why Mary is called the apostle to the apsotles.

FireDragon76 said:

Ridiculous, and misogynistic.

He is just telling Mary that he has places to go, and so does she.

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So does that mean women were allowed to touch the sacrifices?

HTacianas said:

So does that mean women were allowed to touch the sacrifices?

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Why would Jesus, who is divine, be limited by the cultural prejudices of his day?

Jesus had no problems with women touching him, in fact that was one of the things he was criticized for by the religious establishment of his day. Accusing God and our Savior of being a misogynist is something I cannot accept.

FireDragon76 said:

Why would Jesus, who is divine, be limited by the cultural prejudices of his day?

Jesus had no problems with women touching him, in fact that was one of the things he was criticized for by the religious establishment of his day. Accusing God and our Savior of being a misogynist is something I cannot accept.

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If it makes you feel better , see Matthew 28:9. But don't read Leviticus 15:19-33.

HTacianas said:

If it makes you feel better , see Matthew 28:9. But don't read Leviticus 15:19-33.

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That makes no sense.

Jesus sacrifice of his life was finished on the Cross. Jesus obviously did not see women as unclean, and that isn't what he is saying to Mary here. He is simply sending her on her way.

HTacianas said:

So does that mean women were allowed to touch the sacrifices?

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That's not the question.

A sacrifice is dead, and will be burnt or eaten (dependent on the kind of sacrifice, women may eat from it or not, some were only eaten by priests, others were wholly burnt).

But is a risen Jesus a sacrifice? This is obviously a matter of definition. So the question is: Does the rule that women were not allowed to touch certain sacrifices has any consequences on the encounter of Jesus with Mary Magdalene?

FireDragon76 said:

Why would Jesus, who is divine, be limited by the cultural prejudices of his day?

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These "prejudices" were commands of God. I don't think they were relevant to this episode, but denouncing what God has said as a "prejudice" is certainly not what Jesus would approve.

helmut said:

That's not the question.

A sacrifice is dead, and will be burnt or eaten (dependent on the kind of sacrifice, women may eat from it or not, some were only eaten by priests, others were wholly burnt).

But is a risen Jesus a sacrifice? This is obviously a matter of definition. So the question is: Does the rule that women were not allowed to touch certain sacrifices has any consequences on the encounter of Jesus with Mary Magdalene?

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It is not a sacrifice, but the sacrifice. Jewish priests, all of them men because women were not allowed to be priests, prepared and offered the sacrifice in the ancient temple liturgy. The high priest would take the blood of the sacrifice into the temple as an offering to God. The writer to the Hebrews describes it:

Heb 9:7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance;

...

Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,

Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle, the true tabernacle the earthly tabernacle was patterned after. The writer of the Revelation echoes it at the breaking of the seventh seal:

Rev 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

That's the point in the liturgy when the High Priest entered into the inner sanctuary and sprinkled it with blood. It took about half an hour.

HTacianas said:

It is not a sacrifice, but the sacrifice.

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You mean the sacrifice at the day of atonement. Thank you for clarifying it. What you wrote previously seemed to be on sacrifices in general ...

HTacianas said:

That's the point in the liturgy when the High Priest entered into the inner sanctuary and sprinkled it with blood. It took about half an hour.

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Half an hour? Do you have a source for that?

And the question remaines: Does the command you refer to apply to a risen Jesus who is not a sacrifice in the sense that he is going to be killed?

helmut said:

You mean the sacrifice at the day of atonement. Thank you for clarifying it. What you wrote previously seemed to be on sacrifices in general ...


Half an hour? Do you have a source for that?

And the question remains: Does the command you refer to apply to a risen Jesus who is not a sacrifice in the sense that he is going to be killed?

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Jesus had been sacrificed, but had not entered the sanctuary, i.e., "ascended to my Father". There remains as question. As you pointed out, the priest entered the holy of holies with the blood of the sacrifice on Yom Kippur, not Passover. But Paul referred to Jesus as our High Priest who entered into the sanctuary. Did he enter into the sanctuary later, at that time, or does time matter? Is there a difference within Christianity between Passover and Yom Kippur? I do not know.

Jesus is "our Passover lamb", and is eaten by the people, just as Paul says of the Israelites and the Passover lamb:

1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1Co 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

But Jesus also entered into the sanctuary with his own blood, which would mean Yom Kippur.

To your question on the Revelation concerning the "half hour". The Revelation is written in the order of the Jewish temple liturgy. The Christian liturgy is patterned after that liturgy. You'll hear Catholics say that they can "see the Mass" in the Revelation, which is true. To find the "space of about a half hour" you have to go to rabbinical commentaries on the Jewish liturgy. I've read them years ago but have no idea where. If I stumble across it again I'll let you know.