Has God abandoned his own people?

Kaon · Mar 5, 2019

parousia70 said:
Every Hebrew under the Old Covenant either Followed Israels Messiah in the 1st century or was cut off from the covenant FOREVER.

THAT is what the Bible teaches.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel survived past 70AD *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

OK.

1213 · Mar 5, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
...This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people ...

I don’t think God abandons anyone, it is people who abandon God. And when people abandon God, they also abandon all good and also life that is with God.

claninja · Mar 5, 2019

parousia70 said:
According to those who call themselves Jews today, All peoples on earth today are genetically related to Abraham.

The Jews tell us that we're all Jews.
The genetics and mathematics agree.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

My family did one of those home DNA tests, turns out we got Jewish DNA. Problem is, it couldn't tell me what tribe I belong to. Know any real estates agents in Israel with an Urim and Thummin? I'm looking to claim my portion of the land. Although if it turns out I'm a levite, well I guess I'm out of luck with the land part.....

Blade · Mar 5, 2019

Go back and read what GOD said about His people. He made promises. He HAS to keep them. And remember Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin. Don't think for one second ALL have heard. In 2000somthing.. a Jewish man in NEWYORK never heard of this JESUS came and died.. gave his life and is now a believer.. so many are blind.. MANY!

parousia70 · Mar 5, 2019

Blade said:
.. a Jewish man in NEWYORK never heard of this JESUS came and died.. gave his life and is now a believer.. so many are blind.. MANY!

A Muslim woman in Philadelphia gave her life to Christ and now she is True Israel, once not a citizen of the comenwealth of Israel and now is a fully assimilated citizen of Israel and loyal subject of Israel’s King Jesus.
That’s how this Whole Biblical Israel thing works today.

parousia70 · Mar 5, 2019

Kaon said:
OK.

Indeed. Very much so.

Kaon · Mar 5, 2019

parousia70 said:
Indeed. Very much so.

I am just saying OK to end the conversation. It wouldn't be productive to keep going.

Cheers.

parousia70 · Mar 5, 2019

Kaon said:
I am just saying OK to end the conversation. It wouldn't be productive to keep going.

Cheers.

It would be productive for our readers if you had a scriptural challenge to my post to present, for then they could have insight into each of our views and be better equipped to discern who’s view has the weight of scripture behind it and who’s is simply hot air...
That you don’t have a scriptural challenge deprives them of that chance to learn and grow, but I guess maybe that’s not important enough a reason for you to keep going.
So ok, Cheers!

Kaon · Mar 5, 2019

parousia70 said:
It would be productive for our readers if you had a scriptural challenge to my post to present, for then they could have insight into each of our views and be better equipped to discern who’s view has the weight of scripture behind it and who’s is simply hot air...
That you don’t have a scriptural challenge deprives them of that chance to learn and grow, but I guess maybe that’s not important enough a reason for you to keep going.
So ok, Cheers!

Each person is responsible for the trajectory of their own soul. If I believe there is no reason to keep going - because it wouldn't be productive, why would I keep going with you just because you think we should? That would be a stumbling block for the audience that is paying attention. I mean and meant exactly what I said.

Cheers.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 5, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

Abandon His people? Who are His people? They are those in the Body of Christ. Jew or Gentile it does not matter. We are ALL in the New Covenant and that includes everyone. I know this does not square with the views of Christians United with Israel.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 5, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

God has abandoned no group of people. None. But the people, Jews included, who were offered salvation through Christ and rejected it and him and died are not saved and will not be. After death comes judgement. So I do not see any reason to think the Jews who rejected Christ are any different than the Gentiles who did so. Why do you think the 2/3 of them who died and went to hell are different than the millions who have in the meantime done the same? Do you see what I mean?

OldWiseGuy · Mar 6, 2019

Jonaitis said:
The Old Covenant (Abraham, Moses, and David) is the basis of Israel's relationship to God. Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 says that God has established the New Covenant with the offspring of Abraham, Israel and Judah. Jews are no longer in that obsolete agreement, but under the one Christ enacted. This means the true Israel are those in the New Covenant.

Romans 11 says that Israel shall be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Gentile = the nations = scattered tribes of Israel. Peter was sent to the Jews, Paul to the lost tribes. The 'fullness of the gentiles' refers to the so-called lost tribes that still remained in the region.

No doubt that Jesus instructed Paul to continue His ministry, and "sent" him to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel", a direct reference to the tribes of the Assyrian captivity.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 6, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Gentile = the nations = scattered tribes of Israel. Peter was sent to the Jews, Paul to the lost tribes. The 'fullness of the gentiles' refers to the so-called lost tribes that still remained in the region.

Sounds like both were sent to the Jews though in Paul’s day the tribes weren’t yet lost.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Sounds like both were sent to the Jews though in Paul’s day the tribes weren’t yet lost.

After the Assyrian captivity ended many Israelites returned to the region. It is those that Jesus referred to as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He sojourned into those areas briefly i.e. the "woman at the well", and "the Samaritan woman", both of whom were Israelites living in Samaria.

wonderkins · Mar 6, 2019

Just because?

Rejecting Jesus Christ and having him murdered is not a "just because" event.

throughfiierytrial · Mar 6, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

This is a rather dangerous thought to perpetuate...it depends of human reasoning rather than an understanding and acceptance of the spiritual Truths of Scripture. God never saw only the Jews as His own people...going back to Abraham's day God announced that His offspring would be as numerous as the sands on the seashore. These offspring are said to be on the basis of faith and not by any husband's will.

Romans 4:12-13:
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Galatians 3:7-9:
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

throughfiierytrial · Mar 6, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
This is a rather dangerous thought to perpetuate...it depends of human reasoning rather than an understanding and acceptance of the spiritual Truths of Scripture. God never saw only the Jews as His own people...going back to Abraham's day God announced that His offspring would be as numerous as the sands on the seashore. These offspring are said to be on the basis of faith and not by any husband's will.

Romans 4:12-13:
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Galatians 3:7-9:
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

I want to add that the Jews continue to this day to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...in reference to the passages you cite (Romans 11:25-26)...just as the full number of Gentiles have not yet entered.

throughfiierytrial · Mar 6, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
This is a rather dangerous thought to perpetuate...it depends of human reasoning rather than an understanding and acceptance of the spiritual Truths of Scripture. God never saw only the Jews as His own people...going back to Abraham's day God announced that His offspring would be as numerous as the sands on the seashore. These offspring are said to be on the basis of faith and not by any husband's will.

Romans 4:12-13:
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Galatians 3:7-9:
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

want to add that the Jews continue to this day to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...in reference to the passages you cite (Romans 11:25-26)...just as the full number of Gentiles have not yet entered.

Jonaitis · Mar 8, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

If I recall right, 3/3 of God's people are not abandoned...

God's people are in God's covenant, and unless you can show me where you are still among his people while outside of his covenant community then you might be able to change my mind.

Jews, without Christ, remain strangers to God. They are in the same position as the heathen.

Jews, in Christ, are the children of God. They are in the same position with Gentiles in Christ.

Has God abandoned his own people?

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