Dispensationalism Refuted

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Jerryhuerta

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Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: .

They are banished to everlasting fire but some will be left to populate the nations according to parallel texts.

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof…. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left…. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Isaiah 24:1, 5, 22

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-18)
What's the point of ruling with the rod of iron, if there are no nations to rule?

 
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BABerean2

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wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Covenant?
What is the feast that we celebrate?


oh_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
Mat 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Why don't we use the clearer scriptures of the New Testament to help us understand the Old Testament?

.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Do any of the POST EXILE prophets (Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi) mention another exile followed by another return to the land? This may help your case.

And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them. (Zechariah 10:6-10)

Written after the return from Babylon. Zechariah 11 is about them being cast off again. Read post #207
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Covenant?
What is the feast that we celebrate?


oh_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
Mat 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Why don't we use the clearer scriptures of the New Testament to help us understand the Old Testament?

.

Keeping a feast is different than the fulfillment of the antitypes of the Hebraic festivals. Christ's sacrifice is the antitype and fulfillment of the Passover oblation. It didn't take away the antitype of Sukkot, it made it certain; it affirmed it, as Zechariah 14 substantiates! As for the other festivals see here.
 
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Copperhead

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There are two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not, throughout the passage, starting in Romans 11:1-5.

There are two different groups of "they" in the verse below.


Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Those who reject Christ are the enemies of God, while the "election" accept Christ and are beloved.

This agrees with Romans 9:6-8.

.

Interesting exegesis but violates the grammar and plain meaning of the text. Try that in a college level English course and see how far you get.
 
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jgr

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Interesting exegesis but violates the grammar and plain meaning of the text. Try that in a college level English course and see how far you get.

Scripture is unequivocal in identifying who the elect(ion) are. They are those of faith and obedience, who are saved by grace.

Under no conditions or circumstances are enemies of the gospel ever numbered among the elect.

Only the elect are beloved.


Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Why don't we use the clearer scriptures of the New Testament to help us understand the Old Testament?

Using the NT doesn't change the OT. That's the problem with Covenant Theology as well as Dispensationalism; both theologies change the OT!
 
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Copperhead

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Scripture is unequivocal in identifying who the elect(ion) are. They are those of faith and obedience, who are saved by grace.

Under no conditions or circumstances are enemies of the gospel ever numbered among the elect.

Only the elect are beloved.

You are right in who the scripture calls the elect. And indeed they are loved! But you should follow the prescription that all scripture is profitable.....

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,

I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Which refers back to....

Isaiah 11:12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Jeremiah 32:37-38 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. 38 They shall be My people, and I will be their God;

Now to be sure, the redeemed are the elect also. But that is not all.....

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

Where people goof up is equating Election with Justification. just because Jacob (Israel) is YHVH's elect does not mean that all of them are justified. Unlike the church, where all the elect are justified. But what of Angels? it would be a stretch to think they are justified as human believers are. Nonetheless, there are elect angels.

And just because those in the Body are called elect doesn't negate for one minute that the Hebrews are also YHVH's elect. Whereas we are the elect because we have placed our trust in Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection, the Hebrews are elect because of the promises to the Patriarchs.

Never confuse election with justification. It screws everything up.
 
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Copperhead

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What's the point of ruling with the rod of iron, if there are no nations to rule?

Yeah, it really makes no sense!

Likewise, why does the kingdom only last 1000 years? If it is perfect, why not forever?

People really don't think this stuff through very well. Usually what happens when folks allegorize the scripture to extremes. The Hellenization of scripture interpretation really messed things up for centuries. And Origen, Augustine, and Calvin sure created a mess.
 
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jgr

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Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,

I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isaiah 65
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name.

Israel was comprised of two groups, God's elect (i.e. chosen) servants, and those who forsook Him and did evil.

Isaiah unambiguously identifies of which group His elect were.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

Are the elect angels enemies of the Gospel?
 
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Copperhead

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Are the elect angels enemies of the Gospel?

How did you pull that one out of your hat? I merely pointed out that there are elect angels. I also stated that it was a stretch to think they are redeemed like humans are. Nowhere in scripture does it imply that Yeshua died for angels.

The passage you posted from Isaiah, the key is "I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob". Some translations say "descendants" instead of seed. Some say "offspring". Now one can imagine all sorts of things, but the majority of the Ekklesia is made up of Gentiles, and they are grafted into the tree not brought forth from Jacob.

Your commentary on Isaiah is actually more in line with Matthew 25:1-13, the Parable of the 10 Virgins. And further along in Isaiah 65 is a description of the Millennial Kingdom.

Now, that Parable has nothing to do with the church, if it did, it implies we all get a downgrade. The church (both Jew and Gentile redeemed) is the bride. These virgins are the brides maids. And it is a discourse on Ezekiel 20:34-37. And as the Parable shows, at the end of the GT period there will be some of the Hebrew people that go into the Millennial Kingdom and the wedding feast, and some who will not.

So there still has to be a unique Hebrew identity outside of the Ekklesia for Matthew 25 and Ezekiel 20 to be a reality. Otherwise, the HS was just putting filler in the scripture that had no substance.

But I would have loved to see how many that hold to the church is now Israel thing and would have claimed it proudly if they were standing on a street corner in Berlin in 1941.
 
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jgr

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How did you pull that one out of your hat? I merely pointed out that there are elect angels. I also stated that it was a stretch to think they are redeemed like humans are. Nowhere in scripture does it imply that Yeshua died for angels.

The passage you posted from Isaiah, the key is "I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob". Some translations say "descendants" instead of seed. Some say "offspring". Now one can imagine all sorts of things, but the majority of the Ekklesia is made up of Gentiles, and they are grafted into the tree not brought forth from Jacob.

Your commentary on Isaiah is actually more in line with Matthew 25:1-13, the Parable of the 10 Virgins. And further along in Isaiah 65 is a description of the Millennial Kingdom.

Now, that Parable has nothing to do with the church, if it did, it implies we all get a downgrade. The church (both Jew and Gentile redeemed) is the bride. These virgins are the brides maids. And it is a discourse on Ezekiel 20:34-37. And as the Parable shows, at the end of the GT period there will be some of the Hebrew people that go into the Millennial Kingdom and the wedding feast, and some who will not.

So there still has to be a unique Hebrew identity outside of the Ekklesia for Matthew 25 and Ezekiel 20 to be a reality. Otherwise, the HS was just putting filler in the scripture that had no substance.

But I would have loved to see how many that hold to the church is now Israel thing and would have claimed it proudly if they were standing on a street corner in Berlin in 1941.

The salient point is that there is no Scripture to be found wherein enemies of God, His Son, or His Gospel are also identified as the elect.
 
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claninja

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Now again, as I affirmed in my prior post, Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard (Matthew 21:43), which include the gentiles-as they assimilate them!

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. (Isaiah 54:1-3)

I would say the new nation bearing fruit is NOT JUST Ephraim with gentiles, but also those from Judah and Benjamin who have put their faith in Christ. Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 as being fulfilled in regards to the free children of the New covenant who belong to the heavenly Jerusalem, while the slave children of the old covenant belong to 1st century earthly Jerusalem. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin and he states the new Jerusalem is "our mother". This new nation includes more than Ephraim.

Galatians 4:21-27 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

Zechariah 11 prophesies that Judah would be cast off at Christ’s first advent.

And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. (Zechariah 11:10)

I agree, Zechariah 11 prophesies of Christ being betrayed by the son of perdition for 30 pieces of silver. We find this fulfilled with Christ in the first century.

Zechariah 11:13-14 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the Lord. Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter

Matthew 27:8-10 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”

And by this betrayal and the putting to death of Christ, God annulled the old covenant

Galatians 4:30-31 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:8-10 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Furthermore, Zechariah prophecies that God would “break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel” (Verse 14). The enmity between Judah and Israel can only be coherently explained in the NT evidence that Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard.

Depends on what you mean by "Israel/Ephraim". If you mean the body of Christ under the new covenant I agree. There was much enmity between the Jews of the old annulled covenant and the body of Christ in the new covenant.

Galatians 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.


This was written after the return from the Babylonian captivity

I agree.

prophecy of another diaspora, specifically for Ephraim, which is also the name in the OT for the ten northern tribes, as is Joseph, in contrast to Judah. In essence, God would hiss, or call Ephraim and gather them in Christ and then scatter them in the world to bring in the gentiles,

Maybe we are on the same page here, but it's hard to tell. When God "scattered" his people through Assyria and Babylon it was due to punishment and not because they had been redeemed. God scattered his people due to punishment according to the Law

Deuteronomy 28:65 And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known

However, in Zechariah 10, we find that the people that are "scattered/sown" are also redeemed.
Zechariah 10:8-9 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.

So how can Israel be gathered because they are redeemed and yet sown among the nations?
I would argue this points towards the great commission of those who have been gathered to Christ.


Zechariah 10:7-9 is the source for the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. In bearing the fruit of the vineyard, by taking the gospel to the world, they gain the enmity of the Jews who reject Christ as their Messiah.

As stated above, it seems we are on the same page.


And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them. (Zechariah 10:6-10)

As it seems we agree above, I would not say this is an exile due to breaking the law as stated in Deuteronomy 28. This seems to be a gathering to Christ and a sowing of the great commission.

Zechariah 11 is about them being cast off again.

Correct, the flock that rejected Christ perished.
Zechariah 11:8-9 My soul grew impatient with the flock, and their souls also detested me. Then I said, “I will no longer shepherd you. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish; let the rest devour one another's flesh.”

Jesus prophesies of this:
Luke 19:41-44 Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

The next gathering in scripture is not to the land of Israel but to Father in heaven, the true promise land.

2 thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers

2 timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.


Hebrews 11:13-16
However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one.
 
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Copperhead

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And by this betrayal and the putting to death of Christ, God annulled the old covenant

Which one? There are many covenants in the context of the OT. Several were unconditional covenants. Out of the at least 4 Covenants in the OT, only one was abrogated by the New Covenant.
 
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jgr

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Which one? There are many covenants in the context of the OT. Several were unconditional covenants. Out of the at least 4 Covenants in the OT, only one was abrogated by the New Covenant.

Are there four Old Testaments?

My Bible contains only one.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I would say the new nation bearing fruit is NOT JUST Ephraim with gentiles, but also those from Judah and Benjamin who have put their faith in Christ. Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 as being fulfilled in regards to the free children of the New covenant who belong to the heavenly Jerusalem, while the slave children of the old covenant belong to 1st century earthly Jerusalem. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin and he states the new Jerusalem is "our mother". This new nation includes more than Ephraim.

Please read down a little further in Isaiah 54 and Isaiah relates specifically whom he is writing about.

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. (Isaiah 54:5-8)​

Isaiah is writing about Ephraim, the ten tribes that the Lord divorced, refused as a wife of youth.

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. (Jeremiah 3:8)

Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts. Hosea 2:2​

Hosea is speaking specifically about Ephraim, the ten northern tribes. Yet, Ephraim finds mercy in the wilderness and the Lord betroths her to him.

Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her…. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. (Hosea 2:14, 19)​

They find mercy in the wilderness and where it was said of them in the previous chapter that they were no longer his people, they are now called his people and were they were called a people without mercy, they have now obtained mercy.

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. (Hosea 2:23)​

This is exactly what Peter confirms in the NT.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10​

By citing Isaiah 54 to the Galatians Paul is revealing to them that Ephraim has become the husbandmen of the vineyard and by being scattered throughout the world they bring the gentiles to the true God, albeit they lose their identity in the process and become the lost tribes.


So how can Israel be gathered because they are redeemed and yet sown among the nations?
I would argue this points towards the great commission of those who have been gathered to Christ.

Peter, the apostle to the circumcised, along with his brethren, took the gospel to the lands where they knew the ten tribes dwelt; Citing Hosea affirms this and well as the historical accounts, such and Flavius Josephus. These descendants of Ephraim had become a vast people, which stems from the promises of fecundity in God’s covenant.

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (Genesis 48:17-19)​


I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:8-9)​

But the clincher abides in the prophecy to the sons of Joseph in the last days. Remember, the sons of Joseph are Ephraim and Manasseh.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him: his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) (Genesis 49:1, 22-24)​

The shepherd and the stone of Israel are Christ. Jacob was looking down to this age, the age where the leadership of Israel was taken Judah and given to the sons of Joseph, Ephraim taking the privileges of the firstborn.

Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah 31:8-9)​


The next gathering in scripture is not to the land of Israel but to Father in heaven, the true promise land.

Citing Hebrews 11 affirms a heavenly county, not heaven itself.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32)​

Christ returns to earth, not to heaven.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)​
 
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Copperhead

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Are there four Old Testaments?

My Bible contains only one.

You need to take your Bible back and get your money back and get another Bible! But I realize what really is going on is that you just haven't been taught well and done your homework.

But let's take a look at this closer...

1) The Covenant YHVH made with Noah and all those the descended from him (us) that He would never again destroy life from the earth by a flood. Genesis 9. I sure hope that Covenant is still in effect or we better ante up for some serious flood insurance.

2) The Davidic Covenant that one from David's line would rule from Jerusalem in the restored kingdom which would also rule over the entire earth. 2 Samuel 7. I sure hope that one is still in effect. It would be a pretty good deal if Yeshua (Son of David - Branch of David) actually does get to rule like this Covenant states. The disciples sure were counting on this future event. But knowing the faithfulness of YHVH, I am banking on this Covenant holding up.

That is two. That is good enough for our discussion. We could go further but these two make the point. But what was the Covenant that actually was superseded by the New Covenant? Well, Jeremiah gives us a heads up.....

Jeremiah 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

That would be the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant that is being referred to. It is the one YHVH made when He brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt. Out of all the Covenants YHVH made in the Tanakh (Hebrew shorthand for Torah, Prophets, Writings... what has become commonly called the Old Testament), the Covenant that YHVH made with the Hebrews at Sinai was the only one that was a conditional covenant. Both parties had to honor it. All the other covenants, like #1 and #2 above, are unconditional convents. They are dependent on YHVH's faithfulness alone.

Now you know that there actually is more than one covenant tucked away in the scripture. And you will not have to trade in your Bible for a proper one. Aren't you glad I saved you that hassle!
 
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jgr

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You need to take your Bible back and get your money back and get another Bible! But I realize what really is going on is that you just haven't been taught well and done your homework.

But let's take a look at this closer...

1) The Covenant YHVH made with Noah and all those the descended from him (us) that He would never again destroy life from the earth by a flood. Genesis 9. I sure hope that Covenant is still in effect or we better ante up for some serious flood insurance.

2) The Davidic Covenant that one from David's line would rule from Jerusalem in the restored kingdom which would also rule over the entire earth. 2 Samuel 7. I sure hope that one is still in effect. It would be a pretty good deal if Yeshua (Son of David - Branch of David) actually does get to rule like this Covenant states. The disciples sure were counting on this future event. But knowing the faithfulness of YHVH, I am banking on this Covenant holding up.

That is two. That is good enough for our discussion. We could go further but these two make the point. But what was the Covenant that actually was superseded by the New Covenant? Well, Jeremiah gives us a heads up.....

Jeremiah 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

That would be the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant that is being referred to. It is the one YHVH made when He brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt. Out of all the Covenants YHVH made in the Tanakh (Hebrew shorthand for Torah, Prophets, Writings... what has become commonly called the Old Testament), the Covenant that YHVH made with the Hebrews at Sinai was the only one that was a conditional covenant. Both parties had to honor it. All the other covenants, like #1 and #2 above, are unconditional convents. They are dependent on YHVH's faithfulness alone.

Now you know that there actually is more than one covenant tucked away in the scripture. And you will not have to trade in your Bible for a proper one. Aren't you glad I saved you that hassle!

By this illogic, the division of Scripture into only the Old and New Testaments was illegitimate from the beginning. Because there are four covenants, there should be four Old Testaments, with each one containing only the Scripture deemed applicable to it. Similarly, there should be four corresponding New Testaments. However, only the New Testament allocated to the Mosaic covenant should receive any Scripture, as it is the only covenant which it is claimed has been fulfilled. The remaining three should each contain only a single page with the word "Unfulfilled" prominently displayed.

For convenience, all testaments could be packaged under a single set of covers, with a page tab identifying each testament.

It is indeed surprising that the dispensational community has not yet produced a Bible version incorporating these innovations. It has had approaching two centuries to do so. Darby and Scofield missed a tremendous opportunity to introduce their new truth to the world in this form. They should be unmercifully castigated and excoriated.

I presume that you would enthusiastically endorse the production of such an aforedescribed new Bible version.

However, should you be wrong, and the historic division into two Testaments be legitimate, note that under the immutable legal definition of a (Will and) Testament, a New Will and Testament revokes, replaces, and supersedes the previous old will and testament in its entirety. Check the declaratory clause at the beginning of your own will and testament.

In the case of the New Will and Testament in the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, it also fulfills it.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.
 
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claninja

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Please read down a little further in Isaiah 54 and Isaiah relates specifically whom he is writing about.

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. (Isaiah 54:5-8)

This side steps and does not address the fact that Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 as being fulfilled with Children who are free under the new covenant. Additionally paul, from the tribe of Benjamin, includes himself has one of these children.

Galatians 4:26-27 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have never travailed;
because more are the children of the desolate woman, than of her who has a husband
.”


It is those who are in Christ that will never be put to shame, whether Jew or Greek, from Ephraim or Judah, from Benjamin or Greece.

Isaiah 54:4 Do not be afraid, for you will not be put to shame;

Isaiah 28:16
this is what the Lord GOD says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;the one who believes will never be put to shame

romans 10:11-13 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Isaiah is writing about Ephraim, the ten tribes that the Lord divorced, refused as a wife of youth.

I agree that God divorced the 10 northern tribes of Israel.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

So what is Isaiah 54 pointing towards? The church, the bride/wife of the lamb

Isaiah 54:5-8 For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called. For the Lord has called you
like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God.
For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord, your Redeemer.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church

Hosea is speaking specifically about Ephraim, the ten northern tribes. Yet, Ephraim finds mercy in the wilderness and the Lord betroths her to him.

Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her…. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Israel brought forth the messiah and once the messiah was caught up to heaven to his throne, God brought Israel to the wilderness to nourish her, for the ultimate purpose of being betrothed to Christ.

Revelation 12:5-6 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

2 Corinthians 2:11 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. (Hosea 2:23)
This is exactly what Peter confirms in the NT.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10

Paul has Hosea fulfilled in the 1st century: body of Christ which consists of Jews and Gentiles.

Hosea 2:21-23 “And in that day I will answer, declares the Lord, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth, and the earth shall answer the grain, the wine, and the oil,
and they shall answer Jezreel,g and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy,h and I will say to Not My People,i ‘You are my people’; and he shall say, ‘You are my God.’”

Romans 9:24-25 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

By citing Isaiah 54 to the Galatians Paul is revealing to them that Ephraim has become the husbandmen of the vineyard and by being scattered throughout the world they bring the gentiles to the true God, albeit they lose their identity in the process and become the lost tribes.

Paul reveals that the those in Christ have become the husbandmen of the vineyard, whether they are jew or gentile.

Peter, the apostle to the circumcised, along with his brethren, took the gospel to the lands where they knew the ten tribes dwelt; Citing Hosea affirms this and well as the historical accounts, such and Flavius Josephus. These descendants of Ephraim had become a vast people, which stems from the promises of fecundity in God’s covenant.

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (Genesis 48:17-19)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so can you clarify? Do you believe the gentiles (many nations) that Paul mentions over and over again are the descendants of Ephraim?

The shepherd and the stone of Israel are Christ. Jacob was looking down to this age, the age where the leadership of Israel was taken Judah and given to the sons of Joseph, Ephraim taking the privileges of the firstborn.

Technically leadership wasn't taken from Judah, as Christ came from Judah and is the everlasting king. But the kingdom would be taken from the Jews that rejected Christ and given to a new nation: those in Christ

Genesis 49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,

Citing Hebrews 11 affirms a heavenly county, not heaven itself.

I disagree. Even King david, who had all the land promised through the old covenant, considered himself and the people of Israel strangers and sojourners on the earth, just as the fathers were.

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

1 chronicles 29:15 For we are strangers before you and sojourners, as all our fathers were. Our days on the earth are like a shadow, and there is no abiding.

We can confirm heaven is the true promise land via other scriptures:

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

2 timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32)

This depends on when you believe Jesus came in his glory and sat on the throne.

I believe Jesus entered his glory at his ascension to the Father

Daniel 7:13-14 and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,

Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”

I believe Jesus sat upon the throne when ascended to the Father

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
 
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claninja

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Which one?

The old covenant to Israel found in the Law. The one associated with temple worship and animal sacrifices. The one with the 613 laws.

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:8-10 In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The one that was Israel's guardian until Christ came.

Galatians 3:24-25 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
 
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