What is Truth? Interpretations of The Book of Revelation.

eleos1954 said:

They don't teach these things as you have them stated. Many of your statements misrepresent their teachings.

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Go ahead and Type in "1844" in your google and you will see that they hold this year sacred as the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven. 1844 WOULD have been Christ's second coming to earth, as they teach it, but Jesus was angry that the Christians who believed that his coming would be in 1844 still were celebrating a Sunday sabbath -- so Jesus chose NOT to come but only set aside a new group that would rightly follow the Saturday sabbath so Jesus could return -- they later called themselves the 7th Day Adventists.

Where did the 1844 come from? Baptist minister William Miller was the Hal Lindsey of his day. A well-meaning, God-fearing evangelical. Miller had all the charts and math worked out and nearly 250,000 mainstream Christians believed they were in the final years along with him.

The whole thing was a disastrous flub (just like today's entimes hysterias).

Norman70 said:

My wife and myself are not members of, nor do we attend, any established or denominational Church, We try to hold onto Tolstoy's premise "The Kingdom of God is Within You".
However many of my wife's family are Seventh Day Adventists and we receive a copy from them of their Quarterlies. Presently it is entitled " The Book of Revelation" and in it at the beginning they are completely honest and say their interpretation is the historicist view.
I am no theologian, but I am aware of other interpretations, such as the preterist and futurist versions?
We, my wife and myself, are not going to be persuaded that the SDA hold the truth in these matters. They may do, but we will leave it to Jesus to ultimately lead us to His Eternal Truth. Concerning The Book of Revelation, does it really matter?

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The book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible that God promised a special blessing on "he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:" Rev 1:3.

Also, at the very end of the book God says "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man who shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:18,19

So, yes, God intends for all to read and understand the revelation to Christ contained in this final book of the Bible. Far from not mattering whether one does or not, it is IMPERATIVE that one heed God's command to know the book.

You'll discover after beginning the study that one's mishandling of Revelation is indicative of his or her confusion about pretty much all of the rest of God's word. That's because a diligent study of Revelation involves us having to go to virtually almost every other page in the Bible. Is it possible that God gave us Revelation as a sort of litmus test to know whether we are correctly understanding His doctrines throughout Scripture?

To answer your other question about how to know what interpretation is correct, you must do some diligent work to understand the science of biblical interpretation. Google something like "what is the correct hermeneutic." Follow those recommendations as you read Revelation and you won't go wrong. Also, seek out Bible teachers or pastors whose expositions of Revelation practice correct interpretations.

If you PM me I'll recommend some excellent ones.

_Dave_ said:

Google something like "what is the correct hermeneutic." Follow those recommendations as you read Revelation and you won't go wrong.

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Good Advice... Here's what I found when I did just that:
Hermeneutics: the Eight Rules of Biblical Interpretation

Here are the eight rules:

1. The rule of DEFINITION: What does the word mean? Any study of Scripture must begin with a study of words. Define your terms and then keep to the terms defined. The interpreter should conscientiously abide by the plain meaning of the words. This quite often may require using a Hebrew/English or Greek/English lexicon in order to make sure that the sense of the English translation is understood. A couple of good examples of this are the Greek words "allos" and "heteros". Both are usually translated as "another" in English – yet "allos" literally means "another of the same type" and "heteros" means "another of a different type."
2. The rule of USAGE: It must be remembered that the Old Testament was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them – just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. The majority of the New Testament likewise was written in a milieu of Greco-Roman (and to a lesser extent Jewish) culture and it is important to not impose our modern usage into our interpretation. It is not worth much to interpret a great many phrases and histories if one’s interpretations are shaded by pre-conceived notions and cultural biases, thereby rendering an inaccurate and ineffectual lesson.
3. The rule of CONTEXT: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. Many passages will not be understood at all, or understood incorrectly, without the help afforded by the context. A good example of this is the Mormon practice of using 1 Cor. 8:5b: "…for there be gods many and lords many…" as a "proof text" of their doctrine of polytheism. However, a simple reading of the whole verse in the context of the whole chapter (e.g. where Paul calls these gods "so-called"), plainly demonstrates that Paul is not teaching polytheism.
4. The rule of HISTORICAL BACKGROUND: The interpreter must have some awareness of the life and society of the times in which the Scripture was written. The spiritual principle will be timeless but often can’t be properly appreciated without some knowledge of the background. If the interpreter can have in his mind what the writer had in his mind when he wrote – without adding any excess baggage from the interpreter’s own culture or society – then the true thought of the Scripture can be captured resulting in an accurate interpretation.
   Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Our only interest in the past is for the light it throws upon the present."
   
   
5. The rule of LOGIC: Interpretation is merely logical reasoning. When interpreting Scripture, the use of reason is everywhere to be
   assumed. Does the interpretation make sense? The Bible was given to us in the form of human language and therefore appeals to human reason – it invites investigation. It is to be interpreted as we would any other volume: applying the laws of language and grammatical analysis.
   
   
6. The rule of PRECEDENT: We must not violate the known usage of a word and invent another for which there is no precedent. Just as a judge’s chief occupation is the study of previous cases, so must the interpreter use precedents in order to determine whether they really support an alleged doctrine. Consider the Bereans in Acts 17:10-12 who were called "noble" because they searched the Scriptures to determine if what Paul taught them was true.
7. The rule of UNITY: The parts of Scripture being interpreted must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. An interpretation must be consistent with the rest of Scripture. An excellent example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity. No single passage teaches it, but it is consistent with the teaching of the whole of Scripture (e.g. the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are referred to individually as God; yet the Scriptures elsewhere teach there is only one God).
8. The rule of INFERENCE: An inference is a fact reasonably implied from another fact. It is a logical consequence. It derives a conclusion from a given fact or premise. It is the deduction of one proposition from another proposition. Such inferential facts or propositions are sufficiently binding when their truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. Competent evidence means such evidence as the nature of the thing to be proved admits. Satisfactory evidence means that amount of proof which would ordinarily satisfy an unprejudiced mind beyond a reasonable doubt. Jesus used this rule when he proved the resurrection of the dead to the unbelieving Sadducees in Matt. 22:23-33.

Norman70 said:

My wife and myself are not members of, nor do we attend, any established or denominational Church, We try to hold onto Tolstoy's premise "The Kingdom of God is Within You".
However many of my wife's family are Seventh Day Adventists and we receive a copy from them of their Quarterlies. Presently it is entitled " The Book of Revelation" and in it at the beginning they are completely honest and say their interpretation is the historicist view.
I am no theologian, but I am aware of other interpretations, such as the preterist and futurist versions?
We, my wife and myself, are not going to be persuaded that the SDA hold the truth in these matters. They may do, but we will leave it to Jesus to ultimately lead us to His Eternal Truth. Concerning The Book of Revelation, does it really matter?

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There are many interpretations on the book of Revelations and every time we read one, we need to try not to paint a picture in our mind (preconceived idea) This creates a scotoma, a blind spot in our mind that sometimes can blind our understanding, we see the preconceived idea not what we are reading. Here are a few things that may or may not help in your study. Sounds like you and your wife have read different views on Revelations so I won’t add to it. I am not a theologian either but the things below with prayer help me.

If your memory is like mine read the book of Revelations at least ten times before you start studying it. You will be able to recall one chapter that is parallel to another chapter.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

1 John 4:1 (KJV) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

All symbols have meaning. Some meaning kingdoms, kings, Satan, disease, swiftness, people, war, strong, governments, peace and many more. Research Biblical symbols and there meaning it will help, there are symbols all through the Bible.

Other interpretations that have been interpreted to be in the end times Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Matthew and others. study those before starting Revelations.

Example: Daniels 70th week gives 7 years tribulation, antichrist, rapture of the Church pre, mid, post and more. Know in your heart that the other prophecies that is placed at end times have or have not been fulfilled. If not, you will be like a dog chasing its tail trying to make it fit in Revelations.

Where in Revelations is the antichrist, I’m not saying where is the word, it could be beast, false prophet or ______?

There are two beasts in Rev. 13, one has 7 heads ten horns and ten crowns out of the sea and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority, the other has two horns like a lamb that spoke like a dragon out of the earth and made an image of the first beast. The first beast power was given him to continue 42 months, which equals 3 ½ years or time times and a half time or 1260 days. The second beast no time is given.

Is either one of these the antichrist? Does it fit with 7 years of tribulation with making a covenant and breaking it after 3 ½ years? Are both the antichrist. Are they both at the same time? Is the first beast in the past? Can you find in Revelations where this last week of the 70 fits? I am not saying it does or does not, just questions that makes me look for scriptures that answer my question if another prophecy said to be end time that makes me go back and study that prophecy again. That will rule out something that does not belong and get me off the wrong path.

Just a few ideas that I hope is more beneficial than confusion. Truth is like gold, you must move a ton of soil to find a spec or you could be walking in a creek and look down and see a nougat the size of your hand. Understanding is the same, we think we understand it and then a light shine and our ears suddenly hears. All scripture matters. In light and love Rodron

parousia70 said:

Go ahead and Type in "1844" in your google and you will see that they hold this year sacred as the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven. 1844 WOULD have been Christ's second coming to earth, as they teach it, but Jesus was angry that the Christians who believed that his coming would be in 1844 still were celebrating a Sunday sabbath -- so Jesus chose NOT to come but only set aside a new group that would rightly follow the Saturday sabbath so Jesus could return -- they later called themselves the 7th Day Adventists.

Where did the 1844 come from? Baptist minister William Miller was the Hal Lindsey of his day. A well-meaning, God-fearing evangelical. Miller had all the charts and math worked out and nearly 250,000 mainstream Christians believed they were in the final years along with him.

The whole thing was a disastrous flub (just like today's entimes hysterias).

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Again, this is not how they teach it ... you disagree with their teachings, that's fine, but again I encourage people to look at various teachings regardless where they come from, and then compare them with Gods Word, and pray for discernment from the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17

11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Their knowledge increased and yes, by restudying His Word they determined they were incorrect about some things and adjusted their beliefs/teaching accordingly, such as keeping the Sabbath and understanding the sanctuary in heaven. Their knowledge increased.

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ did not enter a holy place (of the sanctuary) made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Hebrews 9:11-12

11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves (referring to the old earthly sanctuary system), but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

Daniel 12

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Knowledge has been increasing especially since the Lord made His Word abundantly available. During the middle ages and later ... the populace were discouraged from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the added a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.

People can go research the history for themselves.

Knowledge has increased and will continue to do so (by all of us ) ... until the end of time.

eleos1954 said:

Knowledge has increased and will continue to do so (by all of us ) ... until the end of time.

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Scripture NEVER mentions an end of time.

Such is a man-made tradition only.

parousia70 said:

Scripture NEVER mentions an end of time.

Such is a man-made tradition only.

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the end of time for us here on earth when Jesus returns, I think most of us knows that is what the end of time means.

eleos1954 said:

the end of time for us here on earth when Jesus returns, I think most of us knows that is what the end of time means.

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But scripture is abundantly clear that time on earth unquestionably goes on after that.
So the "most of us" you refer to are apparently 100% wrong about time ending then.

My end of time on earth could be tomorrow, yours could be later today... or next week... but time on earth continues

parousia70 said:

But scripture is abundantly clear that time unquestionably goes on after that.
So the "most of us" you refer to are apparently 100% wrong about time ending then.

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again our time on earth ends - when Jesus comes we enter into eternity with Him whereas our time does not end.

We are straying off the OP so if other topics are to be discussed a new thread should be created.

God Bless.

eleos1954 said:

again our time on earth ends - when Jesus comes we enter into eternity with Him whereas our time does not end.

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Really?
So this does not happen on earth AFTER Jesus Returns then?:

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

How could this tree yield fruit EVERY MONTH if there is no time?

parousia70 said:

Really?
So this does not happen on earth AFTER Jesus Returns then?:

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

How could this tree yield fruit EVERY MONTH if there is no time?

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How long is a month in heaven, how long is a year in heaven? Do you know?

We are off topic ... so if other topics are to be discussed a different thread should be created.

Norman70 said:

My wife and myself are not members of, nor do we attend, any established or denominational Church, We try to hold onto Tolstoy's premise "The Kingdom of God is Within You".
However many of my wife's family are Seventh Day Adventists and we receive a copy from them of their Quarterlies. Presently it is entitled " The Book of Revelation" and in it at the beginning they are completely honest and say their interpretation is the historicist view.
I am no theologian, but I am aware of other interpretations, such as the preterist and futurist versions?
We, my wife and myself, are not going to be persuaded that the SDA hold the truth in these matters. They may do, but we will leave it to Jesus to ultimately lead us to His Eternal Truth. Concerning The Book of Revelation, does it really matter?

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I've studied the Bible quite a bit, especially the New Testament but later spent considerable time on the Old Testament. It took years to get a handle on the prophets but with a few key insights I'm pretty sure they are not the unsolvable riddles I used to think them. The Revelation is not like that, it is perhaps the easiest exposition I've ever done and it is so strange to me that people treat it as if it were some kind of an interpretive challenge, the problem is that humans can complicate a tuna fish sandwich.

I've tried this time and time again, but since I'm sure the book is not that hard to understand, I guess I can take one more pass at it. You have to understand three things, first of all he churches in Asian Minor was the most successful evangelistic and missionary mission in the first century. It grew up very much apart from the Orthodox and Catholic churches that were growing and thriving, just not on that scale. Second, the main judgments are the seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle and vials of wrath at the end. Finally, the heart of the emphasis is the return of Christ for his church and the blessed hope of the translation of believers at the end of the age.

Yes it matters but the church has failed miserably to provide in depth expositions of this text simply because it's focused on everything but the text. If you would understand the message, let the narrative take you were the writer wants to go. Spend some time learning what the significance of Jesus being the Lamb means and there is no way of doing that without getting into the laws of Levitical sacrifice.

Just my two cents worth, take it for what it's worth.

Grace and peace,
Mark

parousia70 said:

Really?
So this does not happen on earth AFTER Jesus Returns then?:

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

How could this tree yield fruit EVERY MONTH if there is no time?

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2nd Peter 3

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4
For in Your sight a thousand years are but a day that passes, or a watch of the night.

Revelation 21

23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Revelation 22

5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

On earth we measure a month according to the moon ... will that method of measurement continue in heaven? We do not know.

eleos1954 said:

On earth we measure a month according to the moon ... will that method of measurement continue in heaven? We do not know.

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So you are saying Revelation 22:2 does not happen on Earth?

Where is that taught?

And regardless of how "every month" is measured there... it is clearly measured as the passing of time somehow.

eleos1954 said:

How long is a month in heaven, how long is a year in heaven? Do you know?

We are off topic ...

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Discussing The proper interpretation of Revelation 22:2 is absolutely on the thread topic:
What is Truth? Interpretations of The Book of Revelation.

parousia70 said:

Discussing The proper interpretation of Revelation 22:2 is absolutely on the thread topic:
What is Truth? Interpretations of The Book of Revelation.

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The obvious answer to the question is that a month will be a month, time won't change, it's a rhetorical question. The real question is whether or not the Revelation is predictive prophecy, or something else, anything else.

parousia70 said:

So you are saying Revelation 22:2 does not happen on Earth?

Where is that taught?

And regardless of how "every month" is measured there... it is clearly measured as the passing of time somehow.

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What I am saying is we don't know how time may or may not be kept in heaven, or even at all.

When He creates the new earth will time be measured the same way we measure it now? Will we have a moon and a sun? Says from one new moon to new moon. Does that mean that a "month" will be as we currently measure it?
(A lunar month lasts 29.53 days. So after 12 lunar months, about 354 days. This is short of the 365 days that it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun.) Will the new earth orbit the sun? Will there be a sun?

What will determine a "month" in the new earth? We don't know.

"And regardless of how "every month" is measured there... it is clearly measured as the passing of time somehow"

Is it measured? By what measurement? We don't know.

Eternity -
a state to which time has no application; timelessness

Norman70 said:

My wife and myself are not members of, nor do we attend, any established or denominational Church, We try to hold onto Tolstoy's premise "The Kingdom of God is Within You".
However many of my wife's family are Seventh Day Adventists and we receive a copy from them of their Quarterlies. Presently it is entitled " The Book of Revelation" and in it at the beginning they are completely honest and say their interpretation is the historicist view.
I am no theologian, but I am aware of other interpretations, such as the preterist and futurist versions?
We, my wife and myself, are not going to be persuaded that the SDA hold the truth in these matters. They may do, but we will leave it to Jesus to ultimately lead us to His Eternal Truth. Concerning The Book of Revelation, does it really matter?

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Unfortunately, the SDA say if you do not keep sabbath you have the mark of the beast. So, it is a no win situation. You will need to reject that teaching in order to see the light.
Blessings.

The reader of Revelation will read the book from one of two basic points of view: You will read the book as though it refers only to God dealing with Israel again, after the Church has been raptured to Heaven for heavenly blessings, and Israel is left to suffer seven years of wrath; or, you will read Revelation as though it describes cataclysmic events which the Church will endure before the return of Christ.

The belief that Revelation refers only to the Jews is that the Church is not mentioned (as the Church) after Revelation Chapter 3 and the presumption is that the Church was raptured at that point because the wrath is not for the Church. What some folk miss is that the first 3 1/2 years of wrath is the wrath that God allows the Devil to put forth, whereas the second 3 1/2 years (of Tribulation) is God's own unleashed wrath. I do not believe that God's unleashed wrath is for His people, the Church.

It's common to hear or read the word, Dispensationalism, and there are many forms of Dispensationalism, such as Partial-Dispensationalism, Full-Dispensationalism, Hyper-Dispensationalism, Acts Chapter Nine Dispensationalism, Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and whichever others have been added in recent years.

Preterists are essentially post-millennials who expect the Church to prepare the kingdom for Christ. I believe it is obvious that they are wrong as the kingdom exists now with Christ reigning from the right hand of God Almighty, and He is now the Great High Priest, Mediator and Intercessor of those who have put their faith in His finished work on the cross. Christ is like an attorney who stands before the Father and declares the Believer righteous. Our righteousness is imputed to us from Him.

Christ will return and set up His earthly kingdom on the New Earth.

Mid-Acts Dispensationals believe that the New Jerusalem will be as a planet which remains planetary to the New Earth and it never touches down onto the New Earth where the Jews will be with Christ reigning from Jerusalem and receiving their earthly blessings.

At one time there was a forum here about end-times which was dominated by Mid-Acts Dispensationals and they would make it virtually impossible to discuss Dispensationalism that did not include their views.