More Anti-Semitism from Omar

FireDragon76 · Mar 5, 2019

The charge of anti-Semitism seems like an attempt to close down debate on Israel, which is a common tactic in US politics.

Kentonio · Mar 5, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
Why would you post 6 articles about the same 2 laws....and then mischaracterize them as being a result of this "Jewish money" conspiracy?

The articles make it clear these were reactions to the left-wing terrorist sympathisers who advocate for the terrorist state of Palestine. They may be misguided....perhaps unconstitutional....but there's zero evidence they're tied to lobbyists.

Ah so if you agree with a simple boycott of goods from another country because of their oppressive actions towards a certain group of people, then you're a terrorist supporter and its fine for you to be legally prevented from working in a number of jobs (or lose your job) in your own country?

Can you think of any other US laws that offer that kind of restriction of free speech in protection of a foreign state?

FireDragon76 · Mar 5, 2019

Kentonio said:
Ah so if you agree with a simple boycott of goods from another country because of their oppressive actions towards a certain group of people, then you're a terrorist supporter and its fine for you to be legally prevented from working in a number of jobs (or lose your job) in your own country?

Can you think of any other US laws that offer that kind of restriction of free speech in protection of a foreign state?

Most experts agree those laws will not withstand legal challenges, being blatantly unconstitutional. But it does show the kinds of authoritarian lowlifes that inhabit our Congress.

usexpat97 · Mar 5, 2019

usexpat97 · Mar 5, 2019

It's more the historic problem of publicly suggesting that Jews have dual loyalties and the pain that has caused us.

Well if you have only one, then maybe the U.S. isn't for you.

LoAmmi · Mar 5, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Well if you have only one, then maybe the U.S. isn't for you.

Pardon?

LoAmmi · Mar 5, 2019

Kentonio said:
Ah so if you agree with a simple boycott of goods from another country because of their oppressive actions towards a certain group of people, then you're a terrorist supporter and its fine for you to be legally prevented from working in a number of jobs (or lose your job) in your own country?

Can you think of any other US laws that offer that kind of restriction of free speech in protection of a foreign state?

Those laws should be struck down.

camille70 · Mar 5, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
What exactly was the outrage you were expecting? They're idiots with zero real influence. I don't like them...but as long as they aren't hurting anyone...they aren't breaking the law.

We're talking about a Democratic congresswoman now. That's a real problem.

The title is inflammatory to some here, but the interview is the point. I was looking for a different interview of her detailing the events of Friday night but I couldn't find it.

rambot · Mar 5, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
Actually...it's a claim about corruption. It's a claim about money corrupting the loyalties of those who receive it.

What? Of COURSE it does. The whole purpose of the lobbying industry is to put the interests of the lobby group above all other things. EVERY politician is corrupted at some level; so long as they are taking money from lobbyists.

All accusations of corruption involve at least two parties. The one corrupted, and the one corrupting. You don't ever need to mention the ones corrupting to accuse them.

The fishing required to make this anti-Semitism goes beyond the pale of reason to me. This is lobbying and influence peddling; no more no less. And it is NOT related to religion but to supporting a particular state.

Outlandish? No. Unfounded and anti-Semitic? Yup.

It's not reasonable to equate anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism and yet I have yet to see you address that.

Sure...you could frame it that way...if you want. Let's consider a scenario where there is no Israeli or Jewish lobby...

So in lieu of looking at facts, you want us to consider a TOTAL hypothetical. Alright. I like a nice little thought exercise; I mean it is escapists and keeps us from addressing reality, but fine.

Foreign Affairs are no more than pursuing American interests abroad. In short, a good foreign policy puts our interests first.

Essentially yes. What "our interests" is open to interpretation but generally, sure.

On the Israeli issue, you've got the basic options to support Israel or Palestine...or neither...I won't really go into why supporting both sides is a farce. If we support Israel...there's a ton of benefits. We get intelligence, military allies, and really far more than I can explain. These are huge benefits for a region filled with people who hate us.

a "ton of benefits"? While I could agree with "intelligence", that is the extent of it. You pluralized military allies when not only is it just 1 ally, it creates enemies with all the neighbours. I wonder if you feel that the 134 billion that the US has given might have inspired some animosity. I mean, many of them do hate you but they hate you for good reason. They didn't HAVE to hate you but your country chose to make that happen.

If we support Palestine....we get...nothing. We would simply be improving the conditions of our enemies. We would be enabling them to kill innocent Israeli civilians (because Hamas is still in charge and they are ok with that)....and who knows, perhaps one day completely destroy Israel. Then we would have a more powerful enemy in the region.

1) At this point, that depends on what it looks like. If you stop ALL aid to Israel and start supporting Palestine, I disagree entirely with your assessment of the goings on. 2) You would be enabling the killing of innocent Israeli civilians instead of what you are doing now which is supporting a country that is killing innocent Palestinians civilians. In case it has not been noticed, the end goal of Israel is, pretty clearly, the iradication of all Palestinians from the holy land. I don't think I would need a map of the consistently shrinking lands to hammer the point home.

So you're sitting there...trying to figure out what the best foreign policy regarding this issue is for the US. What would you choose?

My general philosophy on that area is that "absolutely nobody is holding the ultimate moral high ground". So I would take out assumed aid and response to specific events instead.

I honestly think we could remove the lobby entirely and our position will change somewhere between very little and not at all.[/QUOTE]By this point, likely to maybe but not assuredly.

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

rambot said:
What? Of COURSE it does. The whole purpose of the lobbying industry is to put the interests of the lobby group above all other things. EVERY politician is corrupted at some level; so long as they are taking money from lobbyists.

If that's what you believe....then why single out Israel and no other nations?

The fishing required to make this anti-Semitism goes beyond the pale of reason to me. This is lobbying and influence peddling; no more no less. And it is NOT related to religion but to supporting a particular state.

A Jewish state.

It's not reasonable to equate anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism and yet I have yet to see you address that.

If you know a version of anti-Zionism that doesn't end with the deaths of many many Jews....I'd like to hear it.

So in lieu of looking at facts, you want us to consider a TOTAL hypothetical. Alright. I like a nice little thought exercise; I mean it is escapists and keeps us from addressing reality, but fine.

What facts? Was some proof or evidence of corruption actually presented?

Or is this all pulled out of thin air because "jews"?

Essentially yes. What "our interests" is open to interpretation but generally, sure.

Oh good.

a "ton of benefits"? While I could agree with "intelligence", that is the extent of it. You pluralized military allies when not only is it just 1 ally, it creates enemies with all the neighbours. I wonder if you feel that the 134 billion that the US has given might have inspired some animosity. I mean, many of them do hate you but they hate you for good reason. They didn't HAVE to hate you but your country chose to make that happen.

I think this article does a good job of explaining the military significance of Israel in a way that would simply take too long.

Aid To Israel Isn’t Foreign Aid; It’s An Investment

In short, having them as an ally is considered more a wise investment than foreign state that we prop up. It's hard to overstate how useful they are.

1) At this point, that depends on what it looks like. If you stop ALL aid to Israel and start supporting Palestine, I disagree entirely with your assessment of the goings on. 2) You would be enabling the killing of innocent Israeli civilians instead of what you are doing now which is supporting a country that is killing innocent Palestinians civilians. In case it has not been noticed, the end goal of Israel is, pretty clearly, the iradication of all Palestinians from the holy land. I don't think I would need a map of the consistently shrinking lands to hammer the point home.

Just out of curiosity....what do you think is stopping that from happening tomorrow? Palestinian allies? I'm not sure they have any who would intervene. If that was true...why not wipe them out the last time they launched hundreds of rockets at Israel? They certainly had justification.

Hamas...and basically every political group Palestine ever had was dedicated to the destruction of Israel. The majority of Israeli politicians sought peace....even giving up land they won. This is a very poor argument.

My general philosophy on that area is that "absolutely nobody is holding the ultimate moral high ground". So I would take out assumed aid and response to specific events instead.

Why would foreign policy be based on your personal morals??? You would have a larger obligation to the security and prosperity of the American people.

I honestly think we could remove the lobby entirely and our position will change somewhere between very little and not at all.

By this point, likely to maybe but not assuredly.

I'm really understating it here to be nice. I think the Israelis could march the Palestinians two by two into the sea....and they'd just get a letter of disapproval from us.

There's no upside to helping Palestine...you couldn't come up with just one. There's no downside to helping Israel. Your morals aren't more important than the safety and prosperity of the US.

dzheremi · Mar 5, 2019

I don't really want to intrude on the conversation that is currently going on, but as far as why Israel is singled out, it is the recipient of the largest amount of U.S. foreign aid. It receives more than double that of the next recipient, Egypt ($3.1 billion vs. $1.39 billion).

By comparison, Iraq gets 'only' $347.9 million, and 'we' more or less completely destroyed the majority of that country. Funny how "the Middle East's only democracy" apparently can't function without massive injections of cash from the United States, but we -- the people of the United States -- can't say anything about that without risking being labeled anti-Semitic.

(2018 U.S. foreign aid stats)

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

Kentonio said:
Ah so if you agree with a simple boycott of goods from another country because of their oppressive actions towards a certain group of people, then you're a terrorist supporter and its fine for you to be legally prevented from working in a number of jobs (or lose your job) in your own country?

No...companies can boycott whomever they want.

Can you think of any other US laws that offer that kind of restriction of free speech in protection of a foreign state?

I don't know what law you're talking about.

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

dzheremi said:
I don't really want to intrude on the conversation that is currently going on, but as far as why Israel is singled out, it is the recipient of the largest amount of U.S. foreign aid. It receives more than double that of the next recipient, Egypt ($3.1 billion vs. $1.39 billion).

It's probably our most strategically beneficial ally.

By comparison, Iraq gets 'only' $347.9 million, and 'we' more or less completely destroyed the majority of that country. Funny how "the Middle East's only democracy" apparently can't function without massive injections of cash from the United States, but we -- the people of the United States -- can't say anything about that without risking being labeled anti-Semitic.

(2018 U.S. foreign aid stats)

I don't know if it cannot function without the US....but I don't think Palestine would last long if we withdrew aid. What incentive would they have for not destroying a hostile group of enemies then? If they didn't have powerful allies....they might need to strike their enemies swiftly and in a devastating manner just to survive.

dzheremi · Mar 5, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
It's probably our most strategically beneficial ally.

That's debatable.

I don't know if it cannot function without the US....but I don't think Palestine would last long if we withdrew aid. What incentive would they have for not destroying a hostile group of enemies then? If they didn't have powerful allies....they might need to strike their enemies swiftly and in a devastating manner just to survive.

So essentially we're paying them off to not destroy the Palestinians? What?

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 5, 2019

There is a Jewish lobby in the United States, a powerful one, that unduly influences US foreign policy in favor of Israel. Its main components are AIPAC and the ADL. That's the elephant in the room, the mere mention of which sends the political class into frenzy of rage. That's what Pat Buchanan was talking about when he called Congress "Israeli occupied territory".

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

camille70 said:
The title is inflammatory to some here, but the interview is the point. I was looking for a different interview of her detailing the events of Friday night but I couldn't find it.

I'm not sure what point you're hoping to make here.

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
There is a Jewish lobby in the United States, a powerful one, that unduly influences US foreign policy in favor of Israel.

A pretty empty charge.

Its main components are AIPAC and the ADL. That's the elephant in the room, the mere mention of which sends the political class into frenzy of rage.

AIPAC doesn’t contribute directly to candidates. Which pro-Israel groups do?

Well let's take a look...

"In the 2018 election cycle, individuals affiliated with the organization donated just $21,350 to 14 different candidates, nine of whom were Democrats."

Whoaaaaa....look at all that money! Somewhere around 300, 000$ amongst 14 candidates! I guess all of Washington is in their pockets!

If it's not the AIPAC...where's all the Jewish money coming from?

"The most involved group in terms of political contributions in the 2018 cycle was JStreet, an organization which supports strong U.S.-Israel relations and a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Contributions totaled more than $4 million, the majority of contributions came from individuals, all of which went to Democratic candidates. Their PAC, JStreetPAC, contributed $416,437 to federal candidates in 2018."

Yup...those evil Zionists seeking a peaceful two-state solution with Palestine. So nefarious!

They spent more in 2018 than they have in decades....and it's still a paltry amount compared to so many other lobbies. Undue influence? Hardly.

That's what Pat Buchanan was talking about when he called Congress "Israeli occupied territory".

The problem is that these accusations are always completely unfounded and almost always coming from a racist anti-Semite. That's why you find yourself quoting Pat Buchanan on this lol. I guess Omar is in good company.

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

dzheremi said:
That's debatable.

If you can think of a more likely nation for that...I'll listen.

So essentially we're paying them off to not destroy the Palestinians? What?

Wow...try thinking about it from the point of the Israelis. We're their ally...and the biggest benefit of that is no one can easily attack them without also having to contend with us.

Now let's imagine if we weren't their allies...that would change the way they have to react to every foreign threat to their nation. Maybe they wouldn't attack Palestine the first time a Palestinian blows up innocent women and children. Maybe not even the second time. Eventually though, Israelis will elect someone with a more pro-active stance and that would likely be the end of Palestine....forever.

rambot · Mar 5, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
If that's what you believe....then why single out Israel and no other nations?

Does any other nation get that level of "aid"? Heck do any of your other allies get any aid at ALL as a matter of course?

A Jewish state.

So are we not allowed to be critical of anything any jew ever does in the history of forever? Hate to break it to you but there are PLENTY of examples of terribly Jewish people in the Bible (and so, I can assume) in the Torah. And guess what else, I can be critical of the state of Israel without having any ill feelings toward Jews.

If you know a version of anti-Zionism that doesn't end with the deaths of many many Jews....I'd like to hear it.

Here's a version:
Biblical/Holy writ does not provide legal grounds for any religion to create the forcible removal of individuals from their homes or land.
There you go.

What facts? Was some proof or evidence of corruption actually presented?

I presented the fact that the US donated 3.7 billion in aid to a country that requires no aid (however loosely that term is going to be used).
The average amount that the US donates to an individual country in foreign aid is 79 million. Let that sink in a sec when you compare it to 3.9 BILLION dollars. At what point does "aid" turn into "assurred income"?

I think this article does a good job of explaining the military significance of Israel in a way that would simply take too long.

Aid To Israel Isn’t Foreign Aid; It’s An Investment

Meh. I read a lot of hyperbole and repetetive phrasing. My feeling, even after reading this article is that, other than intelligence, the US gets no real meaningful benefit from helping Israel. Sorry. You keep referring to a "tonne of reasons" and whatever but I don't really see very much that is anything near compelling.

In short, having them as an ally is considered more a wise investment than foreign state that we prop up. It's hard to overstate how useful they are.

Sorry? You think the US DOES NOT prop up Israel?

Just out of curiosity....what do you think is stopping that from happening tomorrow? Palestinian allies? I'm not sure they have any who would intervene. If that was true...why not wipe them out the last time they launched hundreds of rockets at Israel? They certainly had justification.

Death by a 1000 paper cuts can be managed. Not only that but you can placate your allies and then claim victimhood afterwards. FWIW, the UN has made numerous resolutions against their steps, but they're toothless.
Launching a "bunch of rockets" that do almost no damage and cause a couple of deaths, does not, in my mind, become balanced by killing dozens, razing homes, and encroaching on territory.

Hamas...and basically every political group Palestine ever had was dedicated to the destruction of Israel. The majority of Israeli politicians sought peace....even giving up land they won. This is a very poor argument.

At least Hamas where's there heart on their sleave; and given their mistreatment, it makes sense.
Please guy. Please. Sought peace. If they are as dedicated to peace, they would not be killing at a 9:1 ratio.
If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

Why would foreign policy be based on your personal morals??? You would have a larger obligation to the security and prosperity of the American people.

Yes and maintaining that relationship further compromises the security and prosperity of the American people as it creates and exacerbates their enemies in the region.

Do you think that if the US had been giving Palestine 3 billion in aid for 15+ years that the Arab world would feel the same way that they do now?

There's no upside to helping Palestine...you couldn't come up with just one. There's no downside to helping Israel. Your morals aren't more important than the safety and prosperity of the US.

American money has led to the infrastructure in Israel that helps America. So, essentially, if you throw that same amount of money at Palestine, you could get same results in time.

Ana the Ist · Mar 5, 2019

rambot said:
Does any other nation get that level of "aid"? Heck do any of your other allies get any aid at ALL as a matter of course?

Our allies...and of course they do. Ever heard of Japan or South Korea?

So are we not allowed to be critical of anything any jew ever does in the history of forever? Hate to break it to you but there are PLENTY of examples of terribly Jewish people in the Bible (and so, I can assume) in the Torah. And guess what else, I can be critical of the state of Israel without having any ill feelings toward Jews.

No one is saying that. You can criticize anyone you want....but if your "criticism" is a baseless accusation that's typical of anti-Semitism....don't be surprised when you're called on it.

Here's a version:
Biblical/Holy writ does not provide legal grounds for any religion to create the forcible removal of individuals from their homes or land.

Sorry...I don't see how this applies. It's not "biblical law" that recognizes the authority of those...or any lands.

I presented the fact that the US donated 3.7 billion in aid to a country that requires no aid (however loosely that term is going to be used).

And? What do you think that's evidence of?

We spent years providing all kinds of aid to South Korea and it's paid off, not just strategically but economically. Does that mean that a shadowy cabal of S. Korean lobbyists are buying the loyalties of our politicians?

The average amount that the US donates to an individual country in foreign aid is 79 million. Let that sink in a sec when you compare it to 3.9 BILLION dollars. At what point does "aid" turn into "assurred income"?

It doesn't. As soon as it's no longer to our advantage to provide them aid....my guess is it will stop.

Meh. I read a lot of hyperbole and repetetive phrasing. My feeling, even after reading this article is that, other than intelligence, the US gets no real meaningful benefit from helping Israel. Sorry. You keep referring to a "tonne of reasons" and whatever but I don't really see very much that is anything near compelling.

I understand...you disagree with all the experts and everyone who knows what they're talking about.

Sorry? You think the US DOES NOT prop up Israel?

I think they can survive on their own. They would face a threat from Iran...but I can't say for certain that they would lose.

Death by a 1000 paper cuts can be managed. Not only that but you can placate your allies and then claim victimhood afterwards. FWIW, the UN has made numerous resolutions against their steps, but they're toothless.

And?

Launching a "bunch of rockets" that do almost no damage and cause a couple of deaths, does not, in my mind, become balanced by killing dozens, razing homes, and encroaching on territory.

Because in your mind....war is all about trying to make sure you don't do more damage to your enemy than they do to you?

It's hard for me to understand your reasoning here.

At least Hamas where's there heart on their sleave; and given their mistreatment, it makes sense.

What mistreatment? I appreciate their honesty as well...that makes it easier to side against them.

Please guy. Please. Sought peace. If they are as dedicated to peace, they would not be killing at a 9:1 ratio.
If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

Is being effective at war a bad thing now? I guess it's no surprise we no longer win wars...

Yes and maintaining that relationship further compromises the security and prosperity of the American people as it creates and exacerbates their enemies in the region.

How? I don't think any of these people would be our allies if we were to stop. Death to America isn't a sentiment that's likely to die with our support of Israel. In fact, I think it's a safe bet that they aren't big fans of any nation that isn't controlled by muslims and built upon Islam.

Do you think that if the US had been giving Palestine 3 billion in aid for 15+ years that the Arab world would feel the same way that they do now?

Yes.

American money has led to the infrastructure in Israel that helps America. So, essentially, if you throw that same amount of money at Palestine, you could get same results in time.

I don't think you can. We aren't going to get a free stable democratic nation out of Palestine by pouring money into it....nor would they ever side against their Muslim neighbors for us. The best we could hope is a larger, more powerful, oppressive Islamic state that denies the rights of women, children, and homosexuals....that might be slightly less hateful towards us.

But hey....at least you'd get a warm fuzzy out of it....right?

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