Heretical Views On The Person of Jesus Christ

tampasteve

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Well, I believe Christ's soul was 100% divine and that the body was an outward shell or temple. I believe Christ suppressed His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. To have all knowledge) so as to be like a man. Hence, why He said that He did not know the day or hour of His own return (Matthew 24:36), and hence, why He was able to grow in wisdom (Luke 2:52). Yet, Jesus still was God on the inside 100%. The Living Word (second person of the eternal Trinity) did not join with a human soul, or mind and nor was a new human soul created tailored made for Him. Christ has always had His own mind and soul that is eternal. 1 John 4:3 says Jesus Christ was manifested in the flesh. This means Jesus (the Living Word) came down into the flesh of a man (or a human body suit).

I have discussed this issue many times, and I have yet to have anyone show me a specific verse or passage saying how Jesus clearly joined with a human soul or that a human soul was added to His divine soul. Jesus only has One soul and it is 100% divine and eternal. The body was just a shell or temple. Note: Others have suggested Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9. This implies the fulness of the Trinity was in him (a human soul), but it doesn't exactly say "human soul;" It could easily be referring to the Logos (the Word) while dwelling in the flesh.

Jesus also said to the Pharisees that He had seen Abraham, and they mocked him for it in John 8. Yet, if Jesus was a new creation, He could not really make this claim.

Many fail to understand what a soul is. A soul is one's mind, will, and emotions. Surely Jesus did not join with a brand new mind, will, and emotions that were human, thus being a new being or creation within the universe. No Scripture verse reveals that kind of thing. On the contrary, Scripture suggests that the Messiah was not a newly created being in the universe, but He has always existed.

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2).

Another thing people fail to understand is that Jesus had power during His Earthly ministry, too.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

Adam also had suppressed or limited knowledge in the beginning before the Fall.
Jesus is like type or figure of Adam.
Jesus is the last Adam.

This is off topic for this thread. This thread is about old heresies that may be around, according to the OP. We aren't proving or disproving them here.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I would say that a lot of Protestants are closet Nestorians, at least on a individual level. There seems to be a real reluctance for Protestants (not their church's doctrines) to admit to a Chalcedonian view of the natures of Christ. While I was still Lutheran Missouri Synod, our pastor had a Bible study on the person of Jesus. He asked how many people believed that Mary should be called the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus. Out of 30 people, only three of us said that Mary was the Mother of God. This was despite, that the Lutheran Confessions specifically say that Mary is the Mother of God.
 
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hedrick

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I don't think it's fair to judge the LCMS by people's reaction to Mary as "mother of God." The original conflict was over "theotokos." "Mother of God" is not an exact translation, and I think the difference matters.

I would bet that more people would find "bearer of God" acceptable. A child originates from their mother. But God obviously didn't originate from Mary. Saying that Mary bore God doesn't create this kind of problem.

"Mother of God" is a shibboleth, a phrase that through history has taken on a significance that's not entirely based on its literal meaning, and serves as a test of orthodoxy. If you deny it, you're assumed to be Nestorian. But the West has a different history, one of escalating veneration of Mary. When Protestants hear "mother of God" they don't hear a phrase that is emphasizing the unity of Christ in the Incarnation. They hear a questionable superlative applied to Mary.

The shibboleth used for the Incarnation in the US is "Jesus is God." One can only hope that this is being used in a Chalcedonian fashion. I often suspect some people understand it in a docetic fashion. But Nestorianism isn't a big danger among most US Christians, including the LCMS.

If you were talking about the ELCA it would be a different story. They're a mainline denomination, and thus tend to follow contemporary Christology. That Christology generally sees the Incarnation in terms of a functional union, based on what we know of the historical background of the relevant NT passages. But CF rules don't really permit discussion of that.
 
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Erik Nelson

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you are very right. There is much heresy that has crept into the Church on the Person of Jesus Christ, even among those who are "Orthodox and Evangelical", especially the "subordination" of Jesus to the Father within the Godhead, as Deity, which of course is quite impossible. Another is as some "Creeds" have it, that the Father somehow "generated" the Deity of Jesus, which is another impoissibility, because Jesus is as much Almighty God, as the Father and Holy Spirit are.
God the Father "begot" the Word, and generates / spirates the HS

God's Word and Spirit are of the same godly divine nature & essence as the one utterly uncaused transcendent Father

JC is the Son, the perfect mystical union of God's godly divine Word with the human nature of Jesus

Son = Word:Jesus in crude symbolism

God's Word entered human flesh and tabernacled with humanity on earth
 
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Mathetes66

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Sooner or later when you talk about heretical teachings contrary to the Scriptures, you will get people posting heretical ideas about the Trinity and about the two natures of Christ, as both God & Man. Examples are right here in this thread.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Sooner or later when you talk about heretical teachings contrary to the Scriptures, you will get people posting heretical ideas about the Trinity and about the two natures of Christ, as both God & Man. Examples are right here in this thread.
the Orthodox view is that Christ was "fully God [Word incarnate] and fully man [Jesus born of Mary]", correct ?

Two natures with two wills & two energies, yet perfectly harmoniously united, the human participating fully & unreservedly with the Divine ?
 
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rakovsky

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THE GNOSTICS
Docetic Gnosticism held that Jesus was actually a kind of phantom, and only had the appearance of flesh.
TheBibleSays,
You raised an interesting idea with your term "Docetic Gnosticism". Namely, did Docetism simply begin as a part of Gnosticism, or were there also non-Gnostic Docetists?

The first reference that we have to Docetists is Bishop Serapion's letter from about the end of the 2nd century AD. He discusses the Gospel of Peter, which he said that he got from the successors of the Docetists who authored it. In the course of his letter, he also says that Marcion, the famous Gnostic, got his ideas from them. Another issue though is that a section of the the text that scholars think is probably from the Gospel of Peter was found in Akmim and doesn't have anything clearly Docetic in it. For example, after Jesus dies on the cross, His body is still referred to in the document as the Lord's, which wouldn't normally seem part of Docetism. I wrote about this issue here and welcome your thoughts:
THE GOSPEL OF PETER (70-160). Question: Is it Docetic?
 
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