Is Islam moral?

fschmidt

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of course we stand against evil, but you're still not defining it right, and Islam is wicked. your call for an alliance won't work, when you want goodness to ally itself with something wicked.

seriously, this is weird.
I am familiar with both Islam and traditional Christianity, and I see very little moral difference between them. I personally follow the Old Testament and I am not Muslim or Christian, so I think I am unbiased. If you see a significant difference, please tell me what it is.

I have talked to people at the mosque that I go to about the idea of an alliance of Muslims and Orthodox Christians against evil modern culture, and I haven't heard any complaints from Muslims about the morals of Orthodox Christians. So from the Muslim side, such an alliance is possible.
 

ArmyMatt

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I am familiar with both Islam and traditional Christianity, and I see very little moral difference between them. I personally follow the Old Testament and I am not Muslim or Christian, so I think I am unbiased. If you see a significant difference, please tell me what it is.

I have talked to people at the mosque that I go to about the idea of an alliance of Muslims and Orthodox Christians against evil modern culture, and I haven't heard any complaints from Muslims about the morals of Orthodox Christians. So from the Muslim side, such an alliance is possible.

Christians say it's immoral to reject Christ. Muslims say it's immoral to worship Him. that's pretty huge.

such an alliance is a fool's errand.
 
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fschmidt

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Christians say it's immoral to reject Christ. Muslims say it's immoral to worship Him. that's pretty huge.

such an alliance is a fool's errand.
I think you are stretching the meaning of "moral" too far. Obviously each religion thinks it is right and the other is wrong, but being wrong does not mean being immoral. I see no reason not to cooperate with people of other beliefs for the common good. Why would you oppose this?

Just looking at the Ten Commandments, both religions support most of them while modern culture opposes most of them.
 
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dzheremi

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I would reject such a thing, and I am sure that basically every born-Coptic person would as well. It's not a matter of Islam having no morals (it certainly is a moral system, a fact of which the more aggressive Muslims are incessant in reminding us, presuming us to have no true morals or no sense of care for our religion), but rather a matter of Christianity being not only perfectly moral (i.e., we have all the correct moral stances without any of the corruption and filth of Islam's wicked evils that it calls good), but also beyond simple appeals to morality in following God...which is not even something Islam does in the first place (see Fr. Matt above).
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think you are stretching the meaning of "moral" too far. Obviously each religion thinks it is right and the other is wrong, but being wrong does not mean being immoral. I see no reason not to cooperate with people of other beliefs for the common good. Why would you oppose this?

Just looking at the Ten Commandments, both religions support most of them while modern culture opposes most of them.

because neither faith is as minimalist as they would both need to be for something like this to work.
 
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dzheremi

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Just looking at the Ten Commandments, both religions support most of them while modern culture opposes most of them.

Muhammad was a murderer, covetous (not of his neighbor's wife, but of his adopted son's; this is why Islam has since those times not allowed adoption), and an idolater, to name but a few of the commandments that he broke with supposed impunity under the cover of his false prophethood. That same false prophethood drives Muslims to look to him as the paragon of virtue and the exemplar to be imitated by all righteous members of their religion, so no...this won't do at all.

With respect, I think that if Fr. Matt is stretching the meaning of "moral" (which I don't agree that he is), a similar assessment could be made about the very simplistic treatment of the concept being advanced in understandings like this one. "They would agree on the ten commandments" is not even true, and even if it were they would violate the two commandments given by Jesus Christ our God by virtue of subscribing to Islam, which does not teach that they are to love their god so much as submit to him, and as for loving their neighbors...well...I'd say ask the Banu Qurayza or any of the other non-Muslim tribes the early Muslims interacted with (i.e., slaughtered or forced from the land), but they're all dead or Muslim now, so somehow I don't think they got the message quite right on that one.
 
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prodromos

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prodromos

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I would like to post a poll asking "Would you ally with Islam against evil modern culture?".
Would we ally with one evil culture against another evil culture? Hmm? What do you think our answer is likely to be?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I am familiar with both Islam and traditional Christianity, and I see very little moral difference between them. I personally follow the Old Testament and I am not Muslim or Christian, so I think I am unbiased. If you see a significant difference, please tell me what it is.

I have talked to people at the mosque that I go to about the idea of an alliance of Muslims and Orthodox Christians against evil modern culture, and I haven't heard any complaints from Muslims about the morals of Orthodox Christians. So from the Muslim side, such an alliance is possible.

One thing you should consider is the moral standing of "the Prophet"

 
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ArmyMatt

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I am not really here to debate but rather to see where Orthodox Christians stand. I would like to post a poll asking "Would you ally with Islam against evil modern culture?". Where should I post this poll?

stand against the evil of modernism? sign me up.

ally myself with Islam? not in a million years.
 
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Uber Genius

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Sharia Law in modern Saudi Arabia pertaining to family:

"Laws relating to marriage, divorce, children and inheritance are not codified and fall within the general jurisdiction of the Sharia courts.[99]

Polygamy is permitted for men but is limited to four wives at any one time.[100] There is evidence that its practice has increased, particularly among the educated Hejazi elite, as a result of oil wealth.[101] The government has promoted polygamy as part of a return to "Islamic values" program.[101] In 2001, the Grand Mufti (the highest religious authority) issued a fatwa, or opinion, calling upon Saudi women to accept polygamy as part of the Islamic package and declaring that polygamy was necessary "to fight against...the growing epidemic of spinsterhood".[101] There is no minimum age for marriage in Saudi Arabia and the Grand Mufti reportedly said in 2009 that girls of the age of 10 or 12 were marriageable.[102]

Men have a unilateral right to divorce their wives (talaq) without needing any legal justification.[102] The divorce is effective immediately.[102]The husband's obligation is then to provide financial support for the divorced wife for a period of four months and ten days.[102] A woman can only obtain a divorce with the consent of her husband or judicially if her husband has harmed her.[99] In practice, it is very difficult for a Saudi woman to obtain a judicial divorce.[99] The divorce rate is high, with 50% of marriages being dissolved.[102] In the event of divorce, fathers have automatic custody of sons from the age of 7 and daughters from the age of 9.[103] The right for men to marry up to four wives, combined with their ability to divorce a wife at any time without cause, can translate to unlimited polygamy.[104] King Abdul Aziz, the founder of the country, reportedly admitted to marrying over two hundred women.[105] However, his polygamy was considered extraordinary even by Saudi Arabian standards.[105]

With regard to the law of inheritance, the Quran specifies that fixed portions of the deceased's estate must be left to the so-called Quranic heirs.[101] Generally, female heirs receive half the portion of male heirs.[101] A Sunni Muslim can bequeath a maximum of a third of his property to non-Quranic heirs. The residue is divided between agnatic heirs.[101]"

Does that sound remotely like Christianity?

That is a thirty-second search. What about murder of family members that convert from Islam to another faith, I think they are called "Honor Killings" this is also if a woman is raped. In fact they are for any shame brought on the family.

An honor killing or shame killing[1] is the murder of a member of a family, due to the perpetrators' belief that the victim has brought shame or dishonor upon the family, or has violated the principles of a community or a religion, usually for reasons such as divorcing or separating from their spouse, refusing to enter an arranged marriage, being in a relationship that is disapproved by their family, having sex outside marriage, becoming the victim of rape, dressing in ways which are deemed inappropriate, engaging in non-heterosexual relations or renouncing a faith.

For a detailed scholarly study of this practice as it relates to Islam see:

Honor Killing and Islam
 
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Zummi

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Islam is just as incompatible with Orthodoxy as the modern western secular culture. Both reject Christ, and both deny fundamental Christian truths. The "World" will always hate us and fight against us every step of the way, our only "ally" is Christ.
 
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JackRT

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In a great many respects Islam today is much like Christianity was 5 or 6 centuries ago --- insular, xenophobic, intolerant, violent, homophobic, misogynist, condemning. I just looked back on that sentence --- things have not changed all that much.
 
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fschmidt

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In a great many respects Islam today is much like Christianity was 5 or 6 centuries ago --- insular, xenophobic, intolerant, violent, homophobic, misogynist, condemning. I just looked back on that sentence --- things have not changed all that much.
I actually agree with you. And I still find this far preferable to modern culture which is completely degenerate. Medieval Christianity went on to produce the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. So Islam has the potential to do the same. Modern culture will not produce anything because no culture in history that ever became so degenerate ever produced anything.
 
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TheLostCoin

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In a great many respects Islam today is much like Christianity was 5 or 6 centuries ago --- insular, xenophobic, intolerant, violent, homophobic, misogynist, condemning. I just looked back on that sentence --- things have not changed all that much.

And your beliefs are lawless, hedonistic, iniquitous, Antichristian, and socially degenerate.

We can play this game of virtue-signaling ad-hominem attacking as well. Except our standards are the Church, and yours is your own subjective ideal of what morality is, unless you believe morality is completely relative, to which you should not be arguing this point in the first place.
 
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buzuxi02

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You can align as individuals on moral issues but an alliance of religions simply because they have a few things in common is ridiculous. Fact is almost every mainstream religion holds to a similiar morality but there is no need nor any virtue to synchronize for some greater good.
 
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buzuxi02

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Medieval Christianity went on to produce the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. So Islam has the potential to do the same. Modern culture will not produce anything because no culture in history that ever became so degenerate ever produced anything.
Everything is cyclical. All societies reach a high point and then capitulate back into.a dark age and the cycle starts over. What the future will bring I dont know, but personally I think it's too little too late to stem the tide. On the bright side current inhabitants dont realize how degenerate things are and are conditioned to believe everything is wonderful and everything progresses in a linear motion.
 
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JackRT

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And your beliefs are lawless, hedonistic, iniquitous, Antichristian, and socially degenerate.

Nothing in what I said was "lawless, hedonistic, iniquitous, Antichristian, or socially degenerate."
 
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RobNJ

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I am not really here to debate but rather to see where Orthodox Christians stand. I would like to post a poll asking "Would you ally with Islam against evil modern culture?". Where should I post this poll?

So... between Islam and "modern culture".. you find Islam the lesser of two evils?????

Orthodoxy would reject such a blatant false dichotomy. I would HOPE that Orthodox Christians would have the sense to reject it, also.
 
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