knock and the door will be opened, vs, the door is closed, any second chances?

this is not my name

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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?
 
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Tone

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Luke 11:5-9

"Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacityhe will surely get up and give you as much as you need."

And

Matthew 15:22-28


22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him.“Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
 
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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?

I believe in this:

...the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:15

I think there is hope always.

If person regrets, it means person understands he has done wrongly. And if person understands he has done wrongly and regrets it, he doesn’t want to do the same wrong thing anymore. And if so, that can be counted righteousness, like for example in this:


Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Luke 18:10-14

And eternal life is promised for those who are righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23
 
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Blade

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Righteousness comes from believing in Jesus not how much you don't sin. I personally don't believe when a believer falls be it a min or a day or months becomes "unrighteous". God does not hear the prayers of the sinner.. the unrighteous. When God says something as in knock and the door shall be open. That's it.. Gods words can NOT return to Him void. They have to do what He said.

So YES He still hears ...just SIN really stops God from working in our life but He has NEVER EVER EVER EVER left. So.. the person that has fallen.. just get up dust off repent.. keep going. ALL those 7 thousand promises STILL work! :)
 
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FineLinen

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Our Father's Purpose is NOT a heavenly lottery of chance: first, second, third, fourth ad nauseum!

His idea, all of it!

"Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus.

Saving is all his idea, and all his work.

All we do is trust him enough to let him do it.

It’s God’s gift from start to finish!

We don’t play the major role. If we did, we’d probably go around bragging that we’d done the whole thing!

No, we neither make nor save ourselves.

God does both the making and saving.

He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing." -The Message-

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—.
 
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this is not my name

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Righteousness comes from believing in Jesus not how much you don't sin. I personally don't believe when a believer falls be it a min or a day or months becomes "unrighteous". God does not hear the prayers of the sinner.. the unrighteous. When God says something as in knock and the door shall be open. That's it.. Gods words can NOT return to Him void. They have to do what He said.

So YES He still hears ...just SIN really stops God from working in our life but He has NEVER EVER EVER EVER left. So.. the person that has fallen.. just get up dust off repent.. keep going. ALL those 7 thousand promises STILL work! :)
and if someone lost faith from their heart, but believe in Jesus with their mind, will God hear them? is there a way for them to get faith back?
 
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_Dave_

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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?

I don't see Scripture as being completely dogmatic about this question.

In 2Thessalonians 2:9-11 we see where God says that those who before the rapture had heard the gospel and reacted with an unrepentant hardened heart will be given to strong delusions and believe the lies of Satan during the tribulation and they will be "damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So, it seems to me that there will be a degree of rejection of Christ pre-rapture determining whether God decides to close off the option of a second chance of salvation during the tribulation.

I mean, we all know those who are adamantly, almost violently, against God in this life. They will go on to believe the lie even stronger during the tribulation, with no chance of salvation.

We also know those who are very soft right now in their refusal to believe, who don't have hardened hearts yet. So they have a chance to hear the witnesses and be saved.

Only God knows which is which.
 
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anna ~ grace

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and if someone lost faith from their heart, but believe in Jesus with their mind, will God hear them? is there a way for them to get faith back?
God will hear them. We all go through ups, downs, dry periods, serious doubts. Read "Come Be My Light", about Saint Teresa of Calcutta. She had such an incredible darkness, a spiritual dryness, and yet look how God used her!

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_Dave_

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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?

It's worth mentioning that the title of the OP, "knock and the door will be opened, vs, the door is closed, any second chances?" is not related to the question of whether anyone will have a second chance for salvation if they miss the rapture.

The "Knock on door" passage is from Rev 3, and concerns the church of Laodicea; about which Christ had nothing good to say. In fact, it's the church that He would spew out of his mouth.

It is widely accepted that the church of Laodicea represents the current, nearly apostate church denominations, having many non-saved sitting in the pews. What Jesus is saying is that the church has locked Him out of the building, but that He will stand at the door and knock to be let in.

That's an extremely poignant admonition to the condition of the church of today. Jesus standing outside the church door, knocking and asking if anybody will let Him in.

That's different than the church of Philadelphia, for example, which Jesus told them, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:" and promised them they will be kept from God's wrath. The people of the church of Laodicea, on the other hand, must be overcomers of the denominations' false doctrines in order to sit with Christ at His throne.

It sure gives one pause for thought.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?

In the Revelation where we have the letters to the seven churches, Jesus to the church in Laodicea says He stands at the door and knocks. This is written not to the unbelieving, but the believing. For the criticism against the Christian community in Laodicea is that they had lost their love, and had effectively shut Christ out from their midst--but He reminds them that He's never left them, He's still there knocking on their door, and He will come in and sup with them if they don't keep the door shut on Him.

I don't believe in the Dispensationalist doctrine of a future "rapture" right before a period of tribulation; that's never been Christian teaching. Which also means that the idea that there will come a time when God shuts the door on His promises likewise has no merit.

Instead, what does the Lord teach St. Peter? Peter came to the Lord and asked Him, "How many times must I forgive? Seven times?" And the Lord responds that it's not seven times but rather, "Seventy times seven times", by which the Lord means there is no limit to how many times we should forgive. Forgiveness has no limit. Now Christ our Lord having taught us that there is to be no limit to our forgiveness of others shows us also that there is no limit to God's forgiveness. Indeed, in the Gospel according to St. Luke our Lord says,

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful even as your Father is merciful." - Luke 6:36-37

See here what Christ says, God is merciful and kind to the ungrateful and the wicked, which is why we are called to imitate God in being merciful and loving to our enemies, to give freely, to hold none of our love and compassion back--even from those who would hurt us and hate us.

And consider how true this is, for as St. Paul says in Romans 5, we were God's enemies in the unlawfulness of our sin, but even while we were enemies God loved us, and sent His Son in order that we should be redeemed, rescued, and reconciled to God. In fact Paul says, "God demonstrates His love for us in that even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Christ did not die for the godly, but the ungodly; God's love was not for those who loved Him, but those who despised Him--you, me, the whole world of sinners.

Seeing that God's love for sinners means His bountiful kindness toward us, and His merciful forgiveness which is freely given through Christ for all, how could there ever be a limit, a shut door, on God's promises?

The Scriptures also are clear, that God is unwilling that any should perish, but that all have everlasting life. God is not on the sidelines waiting for us to come to Him, but rather He has come to us, in the fullness of all His loving-kindness, mercy, grace, and peace which is found in Jesus Christ who gave Himself for us, freely, suffering and dying for our sakes on the cross; and this Jesus God has raised up, seated Him at His right hand, and will come again on the Last Day. And when He comes, He delivers all things over to God the Father, and God will be all in all, and all shall be made whole, all is made new. As the Prophet Isaiah foretold, a new heavens and a new earth, which St. John of Patmos echoes in the Revelation.

"Behold! I make all things new!"

Do not underestimate the gifts and promises of God which are yours in Jesus Christ. God's love knows no bounds, His compassion no limits, His kindness is infinite.

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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ViaCrucis

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and if someone lost faith from their heart, but believe in Jesus with their mind, will God hear them? is there a way for them to get faith back?

What does the Parable of the Prodigal Son, or the Parable of the Good Shepherd teach us? In the Parable of the Prodigal when the son returns his father throws for him a huge party, saying, "My son was dead, but now he's alive". In the Parable of the Good Shepherd we learn that God's love is even more potent, for the good shepherd goes out to search high and low for the one lost little lamb.

Martin Luther once called Christ "the hound of heaven", who is relentless in His loving pursuit for us.

Just because we give up on God does not mean that God gives up on us. For even when we are faithless He is faithful.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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_Dave_

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I don't believe in the Dispensationalist doctrine of a future "rapture" right before a period of tribulation; that's never been Christian teaching.

Except that's exactly what Paul's teaching, and his letters to the Thessalonians is all about.

The Thessalonians were the first pre-tribbers. The "church" didn't forsake this teaching until a couple centuries later when false doctrine crept in.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Except that's exactly what Paul's teaching, and his letters to the Thessalonians is all about.

The Thessalonians were the first pre-tribbers. The "church" didn't forsake this teaching until a couple centuries later when false doctrine crept in.

If you are able to find a single reference to such a doctrine in the ancient Church you are welcome to share it.

But take note, I am already familiar with the usual quote-mines and deceptive quotes on Dispensationalist websites.

No, St. Irenaeus does not teach a "rapture" in Against Heresies, that is a quote taken out of context.

No, I will not accept the quote from Pseudo-Pseudo-Ephraim; for one because the actual apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraim is fundamentally different, and two because I have been unable to find anyone who can trace the so-called Latin version of the Pseudo-Ephraimian apocalypse to any time before the 19th century. It is also telling that frequently the fact that this isn't the authentic work of Ephraim the Syrian.

I have dealt with these usual go-tos for years, parroted from Dispensationalist websites.

But seeing as neither Scripture nor the fathers know anything of a "pre-tribulation rapture" I have no reason to believe in such nonsense. Perhaps you have evidence to back your claim up anyway--in which case you are welcome to present it.

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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_Dave_

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If you are able to find a single reference to such a doctrine in the ancient Church you are welcome to share it.

It's all in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

When Paul visited the members of the church in Thessalonica he taught them about the rapture, the Great Tribulation, and Christ's second coming.

In his first letter he responded to a question they had about what happens with their Christian friends and relatives who die before the rapture. They were worried that they would not be snatched up with the living, and thus would not have glorified bodies when they are with the Lord.

Paul comforted them with the absolutely clear, unambiguous message of the rapture that we all know from 1Thes 4:15-16, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

But Paul then had to write a second letter because he had heard of some serious concerns from the members of the church at Thessalonica. Apparently, they were suffering persecution. And some false teacher had got them worried because he had told them that they were now in the Great Tribulation.

Word got back to Paul that the members of the church thought they had missed the rapture. They believed Paul that they would be snatched up before the Great Tribulation, and here is some guy telling them that Paul was wrong, and that they were in the Great Tribulation and would have to go through God's wrath.

Paul then wrote back in great detail telling them that the guy was wrong, and outlining the sequence for the events of the Day of the Lord -- living and dead snatched up to be with Christ, a great falling away, the revealing of the antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and then Christ's second coming.

The early church definitely believed they would be snatched up before God's wrath fell upon the sinful world.

Paul's warning for them has endured throughout the ages:

2 Thess 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: ..."
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's all in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

When Paul visited the members of the church in Thessalonica he taught them about the rapture, the Great Tribulation, and Christ's second coming.

In his first letter he responded to a question they had about what happens with their Christian friends and relatives who die before the rapture. They were worried that they would not be snatched up with the living, and thus would not have glorified bodies when they are with the Lord.

Paul comforted them with the absolutely clear, unambiguous message of the rapture that we all know from 1Thes 4:15-16, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

But Paul then had to write a second letter because he had heard of some serious concerns from the members of the church at Thessalonica. Apparently, they were suffering persecution. And some false teacher had got them worried because he had told them that they were now in the Great Tribulation.

Word got back to Paul that the members of the church thought they had missed the rapture. They believed Paul that they would be snatched up before the Great Tribulation, and here is some guy telling them that Paul was wrong, and that they were in the Great Tribulation and would have to go through God's wrath.

Paul then wrote back in great detail telling them that the guy was wrong, and outlining the sequence for the events of the Day of the Lord -- living and dead snatched up to be with Christ, a great falling away, the revealing of the antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and then Christ's second coming.

The early church definitely believed they would be snatched up before God's wrath fell upon the sinful world.

Paul's warning for them has endured throughout the ages:

2 Thess 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: ..."

In 1 Thessalonians Paul does indeed comfort them by telling them that at the resurrection of the dead those alive would be caught up with them, at the Lord's coming, and be transformed as well. This coincides with St. Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15 where he says we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. At the resurrection of the dead, those who are alive will likewise be transformed as well.

Here's what's missing from that text: People being taken up into heaven by Jesus before a seven year period of tribulation.

Here is what's happening in that text: Christ's return, the resurrection of the dead, and our transformation from mortal to immortal, and to be with the Lord always.

In 2 Thessalonians Paul says nothing about being in "the great tribulation", but comforts them that the Day of the Lord has not already happened, as some had been saying, and that they therefore missed out on the resurrection. Paul, for encouragement, says that the Day of the Lord does not come until "until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction."

So, no, there's nothing in either 1 or 2 Thessalonians about being being raptured away before a period of tribulation. The message of both is that nobody is going to miss out on the resurrection of the dead at Christ's Parousia. Not that people get beamed away into heaven to escape some period of tribulation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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_Dave_

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ViaCrucis, I'm thinking there's no point in me repeating what I've already written about Paul's teachings to the Thessalonians about the rapture and the Day of the Lord. I've had my say, and I know you already disagree with it.

But I am curious enough to continue this discussion along a slightly different vein.

I was wondering if we could get a little bit more organic and if you could tell me in a short little essay just what you believe the order of events is as we approach the time of the Day of the Lord. Please, no wall of text and Scripture. Just in your own words what you think the future holds for mankind.

I appreciate it. Thanks.
 
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ViaCrucis

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ViaCrucis, I'm thinking there's no point in me repeating what I've already written about Paul's teachings to the Thessalonians about the rapture and the Day of the Lord. I've had my say, and I know you already disagree with it.

But I am curious enough to continue this discussion along a slightly different vein.

I was wondering if we could get a little bit more organic and if you could tell me in a short little essay just what you believe the order of events is as we approach the time of the Day of the Lord. Please, no wall of text and Scripture. Just in your own words what you think the future holds for mankind.

I appreciate it. Thanks.

The Lord's Parousia will come at a time when we do not expect, there will be no signs preceding it. As the Lord says in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:36-44). At Christ's coming to judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1) the dead will be raised bodily immortal and incorruptible and those who are alive shall share in that glory (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-57, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:11, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). When He comes He comes to deliver all things over to the Father and God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28), all will be made new--a new heavens and a new earth, and there will be peace and life forever in the Age to Come with God (Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:1-5).

So it's just as we read in the Nicene Creed,

"He ascended into the heavens and is seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. ... We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the Age to Come. Amen."

Beyond these things I don't hold to anything dogmatically.

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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_Dave_

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The Lord's Parousia will come at a time when we do not expect, there will be no signs preceding it. As the Lord says in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:36-44). At Christ's coming to judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1) the dead will be raised bodily immortal and incorruptible and those who are alive shall share in that glory (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-57, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:11, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). When He comes He comes to deliver all things over to the Father and God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28), all will be made new--a new heavens and a new earth, and there will be peace and life forever in the Age to Come with God (Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:1-5).

So it's just as we read in the Nicene Creed,

"He ascended into the heavens and is seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. ... We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the Age to Come. Amen."

Beyond these things I don't hold to anything dogmatically.

-CryptoLuthearn
Not debating, just curious ... If it's not too much trouble, could you elaborate?

You use some terms I'm not familiar with, and skip over some pretty huge chunks of Scripture.

What is Parousia? Is it Him coming for the church, or His second coming in judgment?
Where and when does the judging of the living and the dead take place?
What means "deliver all things to the Father?"
What means "God will be all in all?"
When do the events of Revelation take place in your belief?
When do those who die outside of Christ get cast into the Lake of Fire?

Thank you for your time.
 
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juvenissun

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It seems like there may be a limit to the availability to receive God's promises. some people the door is shut, like when revelation tribulation starts. if someone knows about the promises of God, and falls away, can they hold on to the promises of God and start again? If someone fell away from God, can he still pray?

I don't see why not. One is even allowed to go back and forth many times.
 
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