What kind of Free Will did Jonah have?

Jonaitis · Mar 4, 2019

redleghunter said:
New thread to discuss this specifically

How does a sinner make the spiritual good choice towards God?

Oh, okay!

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
This parable can be found in Luke 19:11-27, which includes this:

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me." (v. 27).

It appears the argument seem to backfire, friend...

I fail to see how this helps you. Verse 27 is just saying that God has enemies. It does not mean God made them to be enemies as if that was something that was of His divine will to be as the only choice available.

Also, how does Luke 19:27 magically undo what is said in Matthew 25:23?

Neogaia777 · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
That's exactly what happened. God changed His mind.

How can He be completely Omniscient if He truly did...?

Or did He (God in and of the OT, YHWH) have a "free will" that was very much like our own...? But maybe the only one really having true free will in the strictest sense, never has to ever really exercise it ever, because of who He is, makes it unnecessary... (But maybe one was needed for whom it would be necessary maybe)...?

Because of, or if, He changed His mind, or Had a change of mind at some point, it just would not make sense, for a God who knows all, is all, and always did and was, ect...?

God Bless!

Dave L · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The story of Jonah actually teaches free will if you look at the recipients (the Ninevites) of Jonah's message. It was not until God had seen the Ninevites had forsaken their evil ways is when God decided to no longer bring wrath upon them anymore. So if it was ordained that God was going to destroy them, why was it averted? Was God just using a scare tactic? Was God not really going to destroy them? Or was the judgment and wrath the Jonah preached real?

Free will to keep law but law cannot save. It can only provide physical temporal rewards.

Hammster · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Apparently enough free will to run away from God (Which is not what God wanted).

Where does it say that in scripture?

FireDragon76 · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it seeks to paint God in a bad light (with God pulling all the strings). For who is the author of evil? Man or God? According to Calvinism, God chooses some to remain unsaved (i.e. to be evil as their only choice because that is His will). *Sigh* .... As if evil is ever God's will. Sure, God can use bad things for His greater plan for good, but God never intends for anyone to sin or do wrong. Therein lies the problem with Calvinism.

Not necessarily. The British and American hyper-Calvinism found among some Baptists is not the only possible interpretation. Most mainstream, confessional interpretations of the Reformed faith believe in only passive reprobation. That is different from God actively choosing certain people for reprobation.

rnmomof7 · Mar 4, 2019

Man is only free to choose from the choices available to him...Jonah had a very narrow set of choices that God kept making narrower ... until the only choice he had was to do as God had ordained..

FireDragon76 · Mar 4, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
Man is only free to choose from the choices available to him...Jonah had a very narrow set of choices that God kept making narrower ... until the only choice he had was to do as God had ordained..

God wasn't pulling Jonah's strings. The whale no doubt got Jonah's attention but in the end Jonah had to be persuaded through his own will.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will to keep law but law cannot save. It can only provide physical temporal rewards.

Jesus taught otherwise (See Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
How can He be completely Omniscient if He truly did...?

Or did He (God in and of the OT, YHWH) have a "free will" that was very much like our own...? But maybe the only one really having true free will in the strictest sense, never has to ever really exercise it ever, because of who He is, makes it unnecessary... (But maybe one was needed for whom it would be necessary maybe)...?

Because of, or if, He changed His mind, or Had a change of mind at some point, it just would not make sense, for a God who knows all, is all, and always did and was, ect...?

God Bless!

God is aware of all possibilities.

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21).

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matthew 11:23).

In other words, God was telling Nineveh of the real possibility of judgment that was going to befall them in 40 days IF they did not repent.

"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4).

Yet, this was a conditional prophecy based on IF they did not repent.

We clearly see God change His mind here:

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:10).

It's up to you if you desire to believe it or not.
Yes, God can be 100% aware of what men are going to do and ALSO change His mind in regards to how He is operating with men in real time. To put it to you another way, sometimes God's Word speaks in terms from our human perspective so that we might understand God better. But yes, the threat of judgment was very real to Nineveh and if they did not repent (a possibility), then they would have been destroyed within 40 days. But seeing they repented (sought forgiveness with the Lord) and they forsaken their evil ways (the fruits of repentance), God had turned away wrath and judgment from them. So this proves "free will" and not a forced predetermined election of things that can never be changed.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

To all:

As for Jonah exercising his free will away from God:

1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD." (Jonah 1:1-3).

Fleeing from the presence of the LORD implies that GOD was not directly involved in pulling his strings to run from Him.

Dave L · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Jesus taught otherwise (See Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19).

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16) (KJV 1900)

Halbhh · Mar 4, 2019

redleghunter said:
I would say we can file this in the “God’s Will will be done.”

Jonah 1: NASB

1The word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, 2“Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” 3But Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. So he went down to Joppa, found a ship which was going to Tarshish, paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

4The LORD hurled a great wind on the sea and there was a great storm on the sea so that the ship was about to break up. 5Then the sailors became afraid and every man cried to his god, and they threw the cargo which was in the ship into the sea to lighten it for them. But Jonah had gone below into the hold of the ship, lain down and fallen sound asleep. 6So the captain approached him and said, “How is it that you are sleeping? Get up, call on your god. Perhaps your god will be concerned about us so that we will not perish.”

7Each man said to his mate, “Come, let us cast lots so we may learn on whose account this calamity has struck us.” So they cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah.8Then they said to him, “Tell us, now! On whose account has this calamity struckus? What is your occupation? And where do you come from? What is your country? From what people are you?” 9He said to them, “I am a Hebrew, and I fear the LORDGod of heaven who made the sea and the dry land.”

10Then the men became extremely frightened and they said to him, “How could you do this?” For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them. 11So they said to him, “What should we do to you that the sea may become calm for us?”—for the sea was becoming increasingly stormy. 12He said to them, “Pick me up and throw me into the sea. Then the sea will become calm for you, for I know that on account of me this great storm has come upon you.”13However, the men rowed desperately to return to land but they could not, for the sea was becoming even stormier against them. 14Then they called on the LORD and said, “We earnestly pray, O LORD, do not let us perish on account of this man’s life and do not put innocent blood on us; for You, O LORD, have done as You have pleased.”

15So they picked up Jonah, threw him into the sea, and the sea stopped its raging. 16Then the men feared the LORDgreatly, and they offered a sacrifice to the LORD and made vows.

17And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

The best kind.

heh heh. Ok, to be a little more serious, how is he any different from 100% of the rest of us, really? We all sinned, because God gave us an ability to choose, make choices, which means we can choose wrong, and then if we are believing, He will help us return to the right, unless we are unrepentant.

Big Picture: as His children, we are still very, very, very young, even at 40 or 70, compared to our Parent.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

Dave L said:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16) (KJV 1900)

In Galatians 2:16, Paul is taking about salvation by Law Alone (without God's grace) because he was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). For at the Jerusalem council, they directly addressed the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" as being a problem (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like mercy (Meaning God's grace). Yes, believing in Jesus is a command (See 1 John 3:23), but this command was not regarded as a "work" or as "law" by Paul. Jesus criticized the Pharisees with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee that they needed to first humble themselves by seeking forgiveness with the Lord (i.e. God's grace through faith) (See Luke 18:9-14). In Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus was not advocating Law Alone Salvationism (without God's grace), but he was advocating what one must do after one is saved by His grace (When they seek forgiveness with Him and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf for salvation).

Obedience after we are saved by God's grace through faith is merely showing that one has a continued true faith. James 2:18 says that he will show you his faith by his works (i.e. his works of faith and not works of the Law of Moses). Works and holiness is merely the proof in the pudding that Jesus lives inside a person. Without Jesus, there is no salvation (See: 1 John 5:12).

Did Jonah have free will?
I would say that he did have free will.
God tried to convince Jonah to not be angry in Jonah 4.
Jonah was upset about God destroying the gourd, but he did not have compassion on the city of Nineveh for a particular time.
This plays into the words of Jesus where Jesus says we need to forgive if we are to be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). This involves free will.

Dave L · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
In Galatians 2:16, Paul is taking about salvation by Law Alone (without God's grace) because he was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). For at the Jerusalem council, they directly addressed the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" as being a problem (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like mercy (Meaning God's grace). Yes, believing in Jesus is a command (See 1 John 3:23). Jesus criticized the Pharisees with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee that they needed to first humble themselves by seeking forgiveness with the Lord (i.e. God's grace through faith) (See Luke 18:9-14). In Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus was not advocating Law Alone Salvationism, but he was advocating what one must do after one is saved by His grace (When they seek forgiveness with Him and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf for salvation).

Are you SDA?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

Dave L said:
Are you SDA?

No. The Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command for believers today. We can celebrate every day as a day of rest in God if we so choose.

Anyways, as for my belief:

Well, I just read and believe the Bible. I am non-denominational. I believe in private fellowship in each other's homes so as to help others follow Jesus. I am not affiliated with any official organization but only of the heavenly kingdom.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

@Dave L

Obedience after we are saved by God's grace through faith is merely showing that one has a continued true faith. James 2:18 says that he will show you his faith by his works (i.e. his works of faith and not works of the Law of Moses). Works and holiness is merely the proof in the pudding that Jesus lives inside a person. Without Jesus, there is no salvation (See: 1 John 5:12).

Note: These works are not forced upon us by God (Which suggests there is no free will in regards to salvation or doing what is spiritually good as a part of the Kingdom).

For the Bible teaches that we have to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

Jonah had to endure to the end in his mission. He didn't want to preach to Nineveh, but God was being very persuasive here. This does not mean that Jonah could not have ran back out into the ocean again or drown himself. God would have simply rose up another to preach for Jonah and we would have probably never heard anything about him then (if such were the case).

rnmomof7 · Mar 4, 2019

m

FireDragon76 said:
God wasn't pulling Jonah's strings. The whale no doubt got Jonah's attention but in the end Jonah had to be persuaded through his own will.

Really? Think about it.. Jonah was "choosing" to run in the opposite direction...and God removed that choice from his set of choices.. God prepared a "great fish"to swallow Jonah ( not a choice of Jonah) ..The fish did not "just happen" to throw Jonah up a 3 day journey from Nineveh ... The choices God gave to him were very narrow .. Jonah was told to go.. he had already seen the cost disobedience . The will of Jonah was for this city to be destroyed because of its evil..he was angry with God for the offer of mercy for them.. He was angry at God for His mercy ... That does not sound like he felt he had made a free will choice

This entire event was ordained by God, not the choice of man ... It was for a sign , a type of Christ and salvation...

Consider

Luke 11:
“This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation.

31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here.

Matt. 12:40: For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

bling · Mar 4, 2019

The book of Jonah is about God doing just about everything to help Jonah with his personal problem.

The Nineveh story is just a back drop to what God is doing for Jonah, we do not know what has previously been said to Nineveh and do not need to know.

Jonah was chosen by God for this assignment to help Jonah!!

The autonomous free will choice is always Jonah’s and we end the story not knowing what Jonah choose to do, but again we do not need to know, the story is about all God did to help Jonah with his personal problem.

What is this God Loved prophet’s personal problem from the beginning?

“Jonah hate all the people of Nineveh and would like to see them totally wiped out by God.”

Jonah does not want God to save them, but wants God to destroy them, so he does not want to preach to Nineveh a saving message which might cause them to repent.

Jonah would take pleasure in sitting back and watching Nineveh be destroyed.

Jonah’s running away will not keep God from helping Jonah.

Here is the way we end the story with a question:

Jonah 4: 9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”

“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

Tell me Jonah’s answer?

Did Jonah repent of his lack of Love for Nineveh or did Jonah go on un-repentive?

God did not make the choice for Jonah and we do not have the answer from Jonah.

Neogaia777 · Mar 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
To all:

As for Jonah exercising his free will away from God:

1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD." (Jonah 1:1-3).

Fleeing from the presence of the LORD implies that GOD was not directly involved in pulling his strings to run from Him.

Is the LORD the Father that the LORD spoke of...? Is He equal to Him...?

God Bless!

What kind of Free Will did Jonah have?

Soli Deo Gloria

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