Is God bigger than other Gods? - Hebrew Discussion

Lulav · Mar 3, 2019

Sounds strange, right?

I was reading this from the KJV Today, ever heard of it?

After learning some Hebrew I thought that the translation should be 'heavens' for 'shamayim', but check this out.

“Heaven” or “Heavens” in Genesis 1:1?
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1, KJV)

Critics charge that שמים (shamayim) is plural and should be translated as “heavens.” In Hebrew, however, the plural form may identify size rather than number in certain contexts. Such a plural is called a "plural of extension or amplification" (William Rosenau, Hebraisms in the Authorized Version of the Bible, p. 111).

Even in English, the plural form, "skies," is used to refer to a large expanse in the atmosphere which is technically just one sky (e.g. "The plane took to the skies").

Jewish translations of the Tanakh also translate שמים (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 as “heaven.” The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text says, “heaven.”
The 1917 JPS Translation says, “heaven.”
Moreover, just a few verses later in Genesis 1:8 the NASB and ESV translate שמים as “heaven.”
The NIV translates it as “sky” (singular).
The translators of the NASB, ESV, and NIV all agree that שמים can be translated in the singular. Whether the word should be translated in the singular or plural depends on the translator’s assessment of the context. The KJV translators translated שמים in Genesis 1:1 in the singular because the other heaven (the expanse in the sky) was not created until day two (Genesis 1:7-8).

So I got to thinking, would that hold true in the case of 'Elohim'?

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

B'reshet bara Elohim, et hashamayim, v'et haretz

So here we have two words with the same ending 'im' or ים

So are the 'Elohim' not more than one God as some teach, but the ultimate, the greatest God?

HaShem said himself and wrote it himself, it was his first commandment:

I am the L-RD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

They must exist else why say this?

אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים: לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי.

Anoki YHVH Eloheicha, aser Hotzeticha maeretz mizraim mibit abadim
Lo yiyeh lekha Elohim aherim al-penia

'YHVH Eloheicha'

YHVH Your God

Elohim aherim al-penia ------Other Gods before my face (presence)

StillGods · Mar 3, 2019

yes - The One True God is bigger

Jonaitis · Mar 3, 2019

This is the typical response by [unbelieving] Jews, that 'Elohim' is a term used for his exaltation. Actually, this is the same thing in Islam too. If you have ever read the Qur'an, Allah is spoken in the third person and uses plural pronouns. It is explained that Allah isn't saying he is plural in nature, but to exalt his majesty. We know the Qur'an is a false book, but it is interesting that Muhammad would use this for Allah, something understood by the ancients.

It reminds me of the passage in Isaiah 6 where God is called by the seraphim as thrice holy; that repetitive language places great emphasis and exaltation to that high attribute of his being.

I still think, though, it refers to the Trinity nonetheless. Elohim has significant places where it is imported, to indicate the plural nature of God.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2019

"For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?" (Psalms 18:31).

Kenny'sID · Mar 4, 2019

The problem is in spite of you thinking there are other Gods because of the "Though shalt have no other gods before me", there are no others. That comment can only be God knowing some of them truly believed there were other Gods, so he brought himself down to our level in order to simplify things for us. Later he would get to the point that there were no other gods...period.

I got tired of copying scripture to prove my point so though there were many more verses, here is what did copy and the points are in bold:

Isaiah 44:6 ESV / 111 helpful votes
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

1 Corinthians 8:1-8 ESV / 47 helpful votes
Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ...

Isaiah 43:10 ESV / 30 helpful votes
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Deuteronomy 32:39 ESV / 30 helpful votes
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Deuteronomy 4:35 ESV / 28 helpful votes
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.

Isaiah 45:21 ESV / 25 helpful votes
Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Isaiah 45:5 ESV / 25 helpful votes
I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 4, 2019

Lulav said:
Sounds strange, right?

I was reading this from the KJV Today, ever heard of it?

After learning some Hebrew I thought that the translation should be 'heavens' for 'shamayim', but check this out.

“Heaven” or “Heavens” in Genesis 1:1?
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1, KJV)

Critics charge that שמים (shamayim) is plural and should be translated as “heavens.” In Hebrew, however, the plural form may identify size rather than number in certain contexts. Such a plural is called a "plural of extension or amplification" (William Rosenau, Hebraisms in the Authorized Version of the Bible, p. 111).

Even in English, the plural form, "skies," is used to refer to a large expanse in the atmosphere which is technically just one sky (e.g. "The plane took to the skies").

Jewish translations of the Tanakh also translate שמים (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 as “heaven.” The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text says, “heaven.”

The 1917 JPS Translation says, “heaven.”

Moreover, just a few verses later in Genesis 1:8 the NASB and ESV translate שמים as “heaven.”

The NIV translates it as “sky” (singular).

The translators of the NASB, ESV, and NIV all agree that שמים can be translated in the singular. Whether the word should be translated in the singular or plural depends on the translator’s assessment of the context. The KJV translators translated שמים in Genesis 1:1 in the singular because the other heaven (the expanse in the sky) was not created until day two (Genesis 1:7-8).

So I got to thinking, would that hold true in the case of 'Elohim'?

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

B'reshet bara Elohim, et hashamayim, v'et haretz

So here we have two words with the same ending 'im' or ים

So are the 'Elohim' not more than one God as some teach, but the ultimate, the greatest God?

HaShem said himself and wrote it himself, it was his first commandment:

I am the L-RD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

They must exist else why say this?

אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים: לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי.

Anoki YHVH Eloheicha, aser Hotzeticha maeretz mizraim mibit abadim
Lo yiyeh lekha Elohim aherim al-penia

'YHVH Eloheicha'

YHVH Your God

Elohim aherim al-penia ------Other Gods before my face (presence)

Jeremiah says this: "Can people make their own gods? These are not real gods at all!" (Jeremiah 16:20).

There is only one true and living God. There are no other gods at all, rather, they are products of man's imagination, usually depicted by an image or statue.

Aryeh Jay · Mar 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
This is the typical response by [unbelieving] Jews,

If only some big man would do something about these unbelieving Jews. Care to step up to the plate? I would love to get together so you can make me a believer…

Norbert L · Mar 4, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
The problem is in spite of you thinking there are other Gods because of the "Though shalt have no other gods before me", there are no others. That comment can only be God knowing some of them truly believed there were other Gods, so he brought himself down to our level in order to simplify things for us. Later he would get to the point that there were no other gods...period.

Oscarr said:
Jeremiah says this: "Can people make their own gods? These are not real gods at all!" (Jeremiah 16:20).

There is only one true and living God. There are no other gods at all, rather, they are products of man's imagination, usually depicted by an image or statue.

The problem with that is it doesn't completely account for the spiritual realm as something that can interact with our place in creation. There are numerous places where the word elohim is used and it's not always associated with Yahweh but spiritual forms of life. The ghost of Samuel is referred to as an elohim 1 Samuel 28:13.

Jonaitis · Mar 4, 2019

Aryeh Jay said:
If only some big man would do something about these unbelieving Jews. Care to step up to the plate? I would love to get together so you can make me a believer…

Sure, if you know how to pitch.

Lulav · Mar 5, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Elohim has significant places where it is imported, to indicate the plural nature of God.

Can you explain what you mean by 'imported' are you referring to an amendment to the text?

Kenny'sID said:
The problem is in spite of you thinking there are other Gods because of the "Though shalt have no other gods before me", there are no others. That comment can only be God knowing some of them truly believed there were other Gods, so he brought himself down to our level in order to simplify things for us. Later he would get to the point that there were no other gods...period.

'In spite of you thinking', sorry but you misunderstood me, I don't believe in other Gods I was offering up a discussion in the Messianic forum on the Hebrew. I also wouldn't consider calling YHVH's commandment a 'comment'.

Those commandments were given to the Children of Israel, you aren't saying they were imbeciles? couldn't understand what He was saying?

Kenny'sID said:
I got tired of copying scripture to prove my point so though there were many more verses, here is what did copy and the points are in bold:

I'm sorry that voluntarily participating in this discussion was tiring for you.

Kenny'sID said:
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ...

Wonder what 'gods' Paul was referring to , especially in heaven?

Kenny'sID said:
And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

This should be read

And there is no other god besides me;
A righteous God and Savior;
there is none besides me.

None what? A righteous God and Savior.

I think we should look at that in context and with the Hebrew, which is what the OP is about.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Attem edai ne'um-hashem ve'avdi asher bachareti; lema'an tede'u veta'aminu li vetavinu ki-'ani hu, lefanai lo-novtzar el, ve'acharai lo yihyeh.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Anochi anochi hashem ve'ein mibbal'adai movoshia

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Anochi higgadti vehovosha'ti vehishma'ti, ve'ein bachem zar; ve'attem edai ne'um-hashem va'ani-'el.

Let's look at this one again in context

Kenny'sID said:
Deuteronomy 4:35 ESV / 28 helpful votes
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.

This is Moses speaking to the people.

32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?

Ki she'al-na leyamim rishonim asher-hayu lefaneicha, lemin-hayovm asher bara elohim
adam al-ha'aretz, ulemiktzeh hashamayim ve'ad-ketzeh hashamayim; hanihyah, kaddavar
haggadovl hazzeh, ov hanishma kamohu.

33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
Hashama am kovl elohim medabber mittovch-ha'esh ka'asher-shama'ta attah vayechi.

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

Ov hanissah elohim, lavov lakachat lov gov mikkerev gov bemassot be'otot uvemovftim
uvemilchamah, uveyad chazakah uvizrova netuyah, uvemovra'im gedolim; kechol
asher-'asah lachem hashem eloheichem bemitzrayim le'eineicha

35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Attah hare'eta lada'at, ki hashem hu ha'elohim; ein ovd milvaddov.

Lulav · Mar 5, 2019

Norbert L said:
The problem with that is it doesn't completely account for the spiritual realm as something that can interact with our place in creation. There are numerous places where the word elohim is used and it's not always associated with Yahweh but spiritual forms of life. The ghost of Samuel is referred to as an elohim 1 Samuel 28:13.

True, thanks for adding that. We must realize though that a heathen (The Witch of Endor) was speaking that part.

Jonaitis · Mar 5, 2019

Lulav said:
Can you explain what you mean by 'imported' are you referring to an amendment to the text?

I mean, which I should of used a better word, that 'elohim' is inserted in some places, instead of all when alternating with YHWH.

I am somewhat convinced that it may refer to the exaltation of his majesty. You mentioned 'heaven,' something I saw before and had thought about.

Kenny'sID · Mar 6, 2019

Lulav said:
'In spite of you thinking', sorry but you misunderstood me, I don't believe in other Gods I was offering up a discussion in the Messianic forum on the Hebrew. I also wouldn't consider calling YHVH's commandment a 'comment'. Those commandments were given to the Children of Israel, you aren't saying they were imbeciles? couldn't understand what He was saying?

You seem strangely defensive. If it was just the fact I disagreed, and posted my reasoning, ok, but if there was something else, I need to know about it.

Me:

Kenny'sID said:
I got tired of copying scripture to prove my point so though there were many more verses, here is what did copy and the points are in bold:

You:

Lulav said:
I'm sorry that voluntarily participating in this discussion was tiring for you.

Exactly, and for that very reason, there was no need to complain so why take it as a complaint?

That's was just mean. I even made it point to say what my point was, that there was plenty of scripture and plenty more on what my point was, nothing more and still you saw nothing but something snarky to ridicule me for. What is that?

Moving on. I saw the following in the "discussion" you say were offering up, and I understood it was a discussion.

First, there was the title:

Is God bigger than other Gods?

Then, it appeared you were trying to show us there were other Gods throughout the post. Where you not?

And lastly:

Lulav said:
I am the L-RD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

They must exist else why say this?

So, how else am I to take "they must exist" in the context it was in and considering the full flow of your discussion?

And though I don't feel I need to defend myself here, I did not misunderstand, I never thought you actually believed there were other Gods, I assumed this was all for the sake of the discussion.

As far as your comments on me using the term "comment" for what I did, I think you are making a lot of something out of absolutely nothing there, and I'm not going to bother addressing it otherwise. Looks like an accusation for the sake of making an accusation.

So I simply offered up some input into what you said and where I though you erred, along with my reasoning, as part of that discussion.

I haven't gotten to what you did to refute the scripture I posted but it doesn't matter, you saw what the verses clearly said for yourself and that they were put there in good faith they were true. So before I go to sort out if your versions of that scripture is true or not, and if there was not a single verse I quoted that meant what it said, I need to know if that's even going to be necessary.

Aside from the few prior questions, the answer to the following will also be helpful:

What was the point of your topic/the original post?

I'll address the remainder of your reply to me as necessary/if necessary.

Kenny'sID · Mar 6, 2019

gadar perets · Mar 6, 2019

There are no other "Gods", but there are other "elohim". "God" with a capital "G" should only refer to YHWH. All others are "gods". "Elohim" with a capital "E" should only refer to YHWH and "elohim" with a small "e" should refer to all other mighty ones/elohim. I know that is not the case in our English Bibles, but it should be so as not to confuse who is being referred to.

Norbert L · Mar 6, 2019

Lulav said:
True, thanks for adding that. We must realize though that a heathen (The Witch of Endor) was speaking that part.

And Saul who was well aware of what the word elohim meant. Exodus 20:3 That there were plenty of other very real gods/elohim heathens could and actually would worship. 1 Kings 11:33

Dkh587 · Mar 7, 2019

Yes. YHWH is above all the other elohim

There are other elohim/gods which He created, but they are not on his level. That is why Moses (rhetorically) asks:

Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the elohim? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

By comparison, they are not true “elohim”. The sons of elohim, in Genesis 6 & Job, even in Psalm 82, are from the Most High.

The Father is divine and is “god” or “elohim” in and of Himself. His divine sons, some of whom rebelled, were created and were given the attributes of being classified as elohim. YHWH shares this quality, this divine nature with other beings, but nobody can share it with Him, for it comes from Him.

Dkh587 · Mar 7, 2019

gadar perets said:
There are no other "Gods", but there are other "elohim". "God" with a capital "G" should only refer to YHWH. All others are "gods". "Elohim" with a capital "E" should only refer to YHWH and "elohim" with a small "e" should refer to all other mighty ones/elohim. I know that is not the case in our English Bibles, but it should be so as not to confuse who is being referred to.

It’s interesting how we distinguish things like this in our culture using uppercase & lowercase letters, whereas the Israelites distinguished based on authority and supremacy.

I just view it like this:

There are many elohim, one of which is YHWH, but none of them are like YHWH. He is the only true elohim.

It’s like how YHWH says “I am the only savior”. He has sent saviors to the Israelites throughout her history, so what does He mean? He’s referencing His eminence.

Lulav · Mar 8, 2019

Dkh587 said:
Yes. YHWH is above all the other elohim

There are other elohim/gods which He created, but they are not on his level. That is why Moses (rhetorically) asks:

Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the elohim? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

By comparison, they are not true “elohim”. The sons of elohim, in Genesis 6 & Job, even in Psalm 82, are from the Most High.

The Father is divine and is “god” or “elohim” in and of Himself. His divine sons, some of whom rebelled, were created and were given the attributes of being classified as elohim. YHWH shares this quality, this divine nature with other beings, but nobody can share it with Him, for it comes from Him.

Yes a traditional song sung on Shabbat - Michamocha, The Song of Moses or Song of the Sea.

Lulav · Mar 8, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I mean, which I should of used a better word, that 'elohim' is inserted in some places, instead of all when alternating with YHWH.

I am somewhat convinced that it may refer to the exaltation of his majesty. You mentioned 'heaven,' something I saw before and had thought about.

Yes, that's what started this, the two translations of 'mayim' if it should be 'heaven' or 'heavens'.

Yes, some think because of the back and forth of using YHVH and Elohim there are actually two creation stories. We see in Exodus where He tells Moses what his name is 'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh'.

Which is shortened to YHVH, so Moses didn't know him by that name until that point at the burning bush.

Genesis Chapter 1 uses Elohim 21 times.

Genesis Chapter 2 uses Elohim 5 times before using YHVH in verse 4 where he is called YHVH Elohim.

verses, 5, 7, 8 ,9, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21 and 22 use that combination as well and there isn't one single Elohim after chapter 2 verse 4.

Chapter 3 starts off with the same combination.

It is easy to understand that no one was present to see the days of creation, as Adam was on the sixth day so even a handing down would still require for HaShem to tell Moses what happened before Adam came into being. But why the use in Chapter 1 of only Elohim? It's still a mystery.

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