the dispensationalism of Irenaeus

Biblewriter

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The verses below prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
(The word "But" connects this verse to the verse before it.)


1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

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Actually, the function of the word "but" is to contrast what is about to be said with what had just been said.
 
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shagsnacks

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You are simply assuming, without an atom of Biblical evidence, that the rapture takes place on “the day of the Lord.”

Dude. I just provided you Biblical proof that it happens during the times and seasons of the day of the Lord. 1st Thessalonians 5:1-2

Anyone that reads this post, please read the verses I cited above and come to your own conclusions.
 
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BABerean2

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Actually, the function of the word "but" is to contrast what is about to be said with what had just been said.

There was nothing that had been said about the timing of the Lord descending from heaven in chapter 4.
The timing is found at the beginning of chapter 5.



Why did you ignore the verse below?

1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Dude. I just provided you Biblical proof that it happens during the times and seasons of the day of the Lord. 1st Thessalonians 5:1-2

Anyone that reads this post, please read the verses I cited above and come to your own conclusions.
No, you provided biblical proof that the Lord comes at the day of the Lord. You provided zero Biblical evidence that the rapture occurs at the day of the Lord.
 
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BABerean2

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You provided zero Biblical evidence that the rapture occurs at the day of the Lord.

There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5.
It must be imported from another passage to make your doctrine work.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

.
 
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shagsnacks

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LOL. I see. So gathering the elect doesn't refer to the rapture. Christ sends his angels to put all of Israel into the Middle East! Can you provide any reference by Irenaeus that Matthew 24 or Mark 13 refers to such a view? Can you provide any evidence at all than any early Christians came to such a novel interpretation?

Matter of fact, can you even find an early Christian that used the word "rapture". If not, then please tell me what word they used to refer to the rapture.
 
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Biblewriter

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LOL. I see. So gathering the elect doesn't refer to the rapture. Christ sends his angels to put all of Israel into the Middle East! Can you provide any reference by Irenaeus that Matthew 24 or Mark 13 refers to such a view? Can you provide any evidence at all than any early Christians came to such a novel interpretation?

Matter of fact, can you even find an early Christian that used the word "rapture". If not, then please tell me what word they used to refer to the rapture.
The rapture is performed by “the Lord himself.” The gathering spoken of in these scriptures is done by the angels, not by the Lord himself.

In the multiple posts OP of this thread, I demonstrated that Irenaeus, in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length, clearly taught that the church would be “suddenly caught up” before the tribulation. So my doctrine is unquestionably older than yours. That does not make it true. It only disproves the lie that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture is new.

I do not believe it because it is old, but because the scriptures teach it.
 
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BABerean2

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In the multiple posts OP of this thread, I demonstrated that Irenaeus, in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length, clearly taught that the church would be “suddenly caught up” before the tribulation. So my doctrine is unquestionably older than yours.

Since Irenaeus was using the word "tribulation" in the same way that John used it below, your often repeated claim above is built on a vapor.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I also believe there will be tremendous tribulation on this planet when Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, as described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.


.
 
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shagsnacks

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Umm...the word tribulation means the same whether it's talking about the Great Tribulation or general tribulation. It means persecution.

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The reason it's called the Great Tribulation is because many Christians are persecuted. Moreover, the Early Church thought they were in the Great Tribulation. They thought the Roman persecution against them was the Great Tribulation.

"And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."


 
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shagsnacks

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Since Irenaeus was using the word "tribulation" in the same way that John used it below, your often repeated claim above is built on a vapor.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I also believe there will be tremendous tribulation on this planet when Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, as described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.


.

Not trying to be rude or anything, I'm not understanding the meaning of your post. You seem to be saying that Irenaeus is referring to general tribulation? He's not. He specifically mentions the kingdoms that give their power to the beast. Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.
 
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BABerean2

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Not trying to be rude or anything, I'm not understanding the meaning of your post. You seem to be saying that Irenaeus is referring to general tribulation? He's not. He specifically mentions the kingdoms that give their power to the beast. Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.

If you want to share the entire text of the quote from Irenaeus, I will be glad to take another look at it.

.
 
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shagsnacks

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1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.Revelation 17:12, etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.
 
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shagsnacks

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If you want to share the entire text of the quote from Irenaeus, I will be glad to take another look at it.

.

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.Revelation 17:12, etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.


Sorry if it got reposted. Your post is downright confusing because Irenaeus didn't even use the word "tribulation". At least not from what I pasted. He may have elsewhere. I'd have to look. But the point is that he described the events that happen when the "Church is put to flight" (meaning the tribulation, referring to the woman given the wings of the eagle. I say that because that's specifically what Irenaeus's student Hippolytus said).

And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens

Just trying to point out, both Irenaeus and his student made clear that the Church is in the tribulation. The word "tribulation" means the same if it's referring to general tribulation or the "Great Tribulation". In both cases, it means persecution.

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

It's called the "Great Tribulation" because of great persecution. Unfortunately, dispensationalists tend to think that the "Great Tribulation" is the wrath of God. It's not. It's the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God comes after the "Great Tribulation", called the "Day of the Lord". We will not experience God's wrath, but we will experience Satan's wrath.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
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shagsnacks

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"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem..."

Book V Chapter 30

The "tribulation" (the word does not appear in this chapter) begins prior ("shall have devastated") to the reign. Irenaeus does not disclose the total length of the "tribulation" period, but it is demonstrably longer than 3.5 years.

Just going through the posts again. Not entirely sure I agree with this statement. I certainly agree that the reign of the antichrist is 3.5 years. I think that the tribulation lasts for as long as the antichrist reigns.


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The "fly into the wilderness"refers to the tribulation, according to Hippolytus (student of Irenaeus). He said

60. Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. And she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man-child, who is to rule all the nations: and the child was caught up unto God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath the place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And then when the dragon saw it, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast (out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast) out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the saints of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus."

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued wth the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;" by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, "her child was caught up unto God and to His throne," signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." "And the dragon," he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: "And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings."
 
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Biblewriter

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Member Biblewriter has declared himself to be the greatest living apologist for John Nelson Darby, and modern Dispensational Theology.

I have never said any such thing, even once.

On one occasion I did say that I firmly believed that I have spent more time studying the writings of John Nelson Darby than any other living person. But I did not say this in regard to my prowess at apologetics, but in regard to my knowledge of what Darby actually taught. And now I will make that same claim in regard to the eschatological writings of the early church. I sincerely doubt that there is a single living person who has spent more time studying them that I have. But again, I say this only in regard to my knowledge of what they actually said.

But I have never, even once, claimed to be "the greatest" at anything, anywhere in this forum, or anywhere else that I can remember, other than perhaps in jest when speaking about other subjects.
 
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Biblewriter

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Watson claims that writings which refer to a future "conflagation", are Dispensational sources, when I believe the same thing, and am by no means a Dispensationalist.

And you call this proof?



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Watson may have been mistaken about some of his claims. (Stress the word "may.") But much of what he published was unquestionably correct.
 
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BABerean2

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Watson may have been mistaken about some of his claims. (Stress the word "may.") But much of what he published was unquestionably correct.

Watson is desperately attempting to ignore the recent history of the doctrine, which is found below.

Like author Grant Jeffrey, he is willing to rewrite history if necessary to make the doctrine work.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Watson is desperately attempting to ignore the recent history of the doctrine, which is found below.

Like author Grant Jeffrey, he is willing to rewrite history if necessary to make the doctrine work.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
Watson conclusively disproved all the claims made in these highly falsified reports, and, after seeing my documentation, strongly encouraged me to publish my book.
 
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