Dispensationalism Refuted

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jgr

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Well, we can speculate all over the place and try to figure this out, but it is clear that there is a distinction and it is the plan laid out by YHWH. While those that do accept Yeshua and are then part of the redeemed are of the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and it can be reasoned that the church is now part of the spiritual Israel. But being redeemed by Messiah does not make one a Hebrew.

No need to "speculate all over the place and try to figure this out", because there never was a physical distinction.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

From the beginning, God's Covenant was extended to all who in faith and obedience would submit to its requirements, with no regard for physical seed, i.e. DNA.

God has never changed His mind. He distinguishes based exclusively on spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.
 
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Copperhead

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Ephraim repents/returns in Zechariah 10:7-9, which is this age.

Then where is Yeshua ruling now? If this is the kingdom age, then many of us must be living in the ghetto.

It isn't Ephraim that has to return. Jacob and Ephraim (Hosea 5:14) have to repent and petition for Yeshua's return before HE will return (Hosea 5:15 / Matthew 23:39). And again, that has not happened yet. Yeshua is not ruling from Jerusalem in the power and authority of King David. And we are not ruling with a rod of iron with Him yet, as it promised in Revelation 2:26-27.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Then where is Yeshua ruling now? If this is the kingdom age, then many of us must be living in the ghetto.

It isn't Ephraim that has to return. Jacob and Ephraim (Hosea 5:14) have to repent and petition for Yeshua's return before HE will return (Hosea 5:15 / Matthew 23:39). And again, that has not happened yet. Yeshua is not ruling from Jerusalem in the power and authority of King David. And we are not ruling with a rod of iron with Him yet, as it promised in Revelation 2:26-27.

Never said it was the messianic kingdom age or Christ's seating on David's throne; I'm not a post or amillennialist. The kingdom of David was ordained upon Christ's return. Nevertheless, Ephriam is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares that Christ proclaimed as the kingdom of heaven in this age.
 
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Copperhead

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No need to "speculate all over the place and try to figure this out", because there never was a physical distinction.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

From the beginning, God's Covenant was extended to all who in faith and obedience would submit to its requirements, with no regard for physical seed, i.e. DNA.

God has never changed His mind. He distinguishes based exclusively on spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.


If there is no distinction, then Yeshua is a liar. It really is that simple. Either He stated there was a distinction that is required for His return or not. One cannot side step the issue. According to Yeshua's own wording, there has to be a literal Jacob/Israel that is the descendants of the literal Jacob/Israel that rejected Him that will have to be in place to repent of that rejection and, in their distress, call out for His return. Neither the church nor the gentiles in general have anything to do with it.

And in Matthew 25, the sheep and goat judgement, is a discourse on Joel 3. Clearly the nations are gathered when Yeshua sets up His kingdom and judged on how they treated literal Jacob/Israel. Again, if there is no distinction, then the discourse makes no sense. Yeshua was just blowing smoke. And the elect of that discourse, Isaiah 45:4 tells us that Jacob / Israel is YHWH's elect. That is as a group. Election does not imply individual salvation. There are elect angels according to scripture. Cyrus was YHWHs' anointed / elect also. Nothing in scripture says that Cyrus was redeemed unto salvation.

If one denies this distinction, then that is between them and the Lord. I will not judge anyone in this regard. But be careful lest one finds themself so for or against doctrinal positions of man that they find they are fighting against YHWH.
 
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Copperhead

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Never said it was the messianic kingdom age or Christ's seating on David's throne; I'm not a post or amillennialist. The kingdom of David was ordained upon Christ's return. Nevertheless, Ephriam is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares that Christ proclaimed as the kingdom of heaven in this age.

The kingdom parables are regarding the kingdom here on earth at His second coming and reigning. The parables of the wheat and tares, woman and the leaven, the mustard tree, etc are all explaining the Messianic Kingdom period.

Some will survive the tribulation period and enter into the Kingdom still in their physical form. Matthew 25 goes into that. That is how the kingdom will be repopulated. But sinful heart of man will remain and sin will be in the Kingdom.

In the Mustard tree parable, the tree represents the kingdom. Birds are nesting in the tree. From the parable of the sower previous to that, birds are symbolic of the evil ones. The Holy Spirit tends to use idioms that mean the same. It is what theologians call the principle of expositional constancy.

In the parable of the woman and the leaven, leaven is always symbolic of corruption in scripture. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees? Leaven is introduced into the kingdom and eventually permeates the entire kingdom and corrupts the kingdom.

To keep this from spreading too quickly thru the kingdom, Yeshua will be ruling, along with the redeemed church, with a rod of Iron per Revelation 12:5 and Revelation 2:26-27. Some seem to equate the kingdom on earth with heaven. That is where the problems start. If the kingdom on earth is so great, why does it only last 1000 years and why is Yeshua ruling as a heavy handed authoritarian leader? Almost despotic as in a authoritarian monarchy.

Now you know how, when Satan is released in Revelation 20, he is able to foment a world wide rebellion of the nations against the Lord. This is brought out in Psalms 2.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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The kingdom parables are regarding the kingdom here on earth at His second coming and reigning. The parables of the wheat and tares, woman and the leaven, the mustard tree, etc are all explaining the Messianic Kingdom period.

Some will survive the tribulation period and enter into the Kingdom still in their physical form. Matthew 25 goes into that. That is how the kingdom will be repopulated. But sinful heart of man will remain and sin will be in the Kingdom.

In the Mustard tree parable, the tree represents the kingdom. Birds are nesting in the tree. From the parable of the sower previous to that, birds are symbolic of the evil ones. The Holy Spirit tends to use idioms that mean the same. It is what theologians call the principle of expositional constancy.

In the parable of the woman and the leaven, leaven is always symbolic of corruption in scripture. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees? Leaven is introduced into the kingdom and eventually permeates the entire kingdom and corrupts the kingdom.

To keep this from spreading too quickly thru the kingdom, Yeshua will be ruling, along with the redeemed church, with a rod of Iron per Revelation 12:5 and Revelation 2:26-27. Some seem to equate the kingdom on earth with heaven. That is where the problems start. If the kingdom on earth is so great, why does it only last 1000 years and why is Yeshua ruling as a heavy handed authoritarian leader? Almost despotic as in a authoritarian monarchy.

Now you know how, when Satan is released in Revelation 20, he is able to foment a world wide rebellion of the nations against the Lord. This is brought out in Psalms 2.

Never heard such a thing, even from a progressive dispensationalist. So the tares will grow along with the wheat in the age to come, aye? That's not what the scriptures say. To begin, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit in the next age, according to Revelation 20; he is no longer able to deceive the nations, which is not represented in the parable. Furthermore, according to the parable, when Christ returns, at the end of this age (αἰών) he gathers "out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (v. 40-40). This corresponds with the promise of the Davidic kingdom in the age to come.

In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (Jeremiah 33:15-16)
Furthermore, this fits well with Revelation 20, where those who have a part in the first resurrection reign with Christ as priests, which certainly is not in this age, unless you want to continue with the scriptural gymnastics.
 
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jgr

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If there is no distinction, then Yeshua is a liar. It really is that simple. Either He stated there was a distinction that is required for His return or not. One cannot side step the issue. According to Yeshua's own wording, there has to be a literal Jacob/Israel that is the descendants of the literal Jacob/Israel that rejected Him that will have to be in place to repent of that rejection and, in their distress, call out for His return. Neither the church nor the gentiles in general have anything to do with it.

And in Matthew 25, the sheep and goat judgement, is a discourse on Joel 3. Clearly the nations are gathered when Yeshua sets up His kingdom and judged on how they treated literal Jacob/Israel. Again, if there is no distinction, then the discourse makes no sense. Yeshua was just blowing smoke. And the elect of that discourse, Isaiah 45:4 tells us that Jacob / Israel is YHWH's elect. That is as a group. Election does not imply individual salvation. There are elect angels according to scripture. Cyrus was YHWHs' anointed / elect also. Nothing in scripture says that Cyrus was redeemed unto salvation.

If one denies this distinction, then that is between them and the Lord. I will not judge anyone in this regard. But be careful lest one finds themself so for or against doctrinal positions of man that they find they are fighting against YHWH.

You've neglected to comment on Genesis 17:12.

Is Yeshua a liar in Genesis 17:12?
 
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Copperhead

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You've neglected to comment on Genesis 17:12.

Is Yeshua a liar in Genesis 17:12?

Didn’t comment on it as it is yet another rabbit trail you are trying to lure me down. You never have refuted scripturally the Hosea and Matthew references. You seem to be fixated on who is Hebrew and who isn’t. That is YHWH’s job, not yours or mine. And He is the one who has to work that out to make what Yeshua stated in Hosea and Matthew come to pass.
 
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Copperhead

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Never heard such a thing, even from a progressive dispensationalist. So the tares will grow along with the wheat in the age to come, aye? That's not what the scriptures say. To begin, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit in the next age, according to Revelation 20; he is no longer able to deceive the nations, which is not represented in the parable. Furthermore, according to the parable, when Christ returns, at the end of this age (αἰών) he gathers "out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (v. 40-40). This corresponds with the promise of the Davidic kingdom in the age to come.

In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (Jeremiah 33:15-16)
Furthermore, this fits well with Revelation 20, where those who have a part in the first resurrection reign with Christ as priests, which certainly is not in this age, unless you want to continue with the scriptural gymnastics.

You may not have heard of such a thing as you probably only stick within your own sphere of eschatology. Take a course at a Bible college and broaden you scope. What I have been referring to in the kingdom parables is more common teaching than you might imagine. Especially in Messianic groups.

Satan is indeed bound during the millennial reign. But what of the thousands of his cohorts who are also out to cause mischief? They are not bound. Sin eventually permeates the kingdom and when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, Revelation 20, there is so much discontent in the kingdom to enable Satan to stir up a revolt. Again, Psalms 2 elaborates on that.

You are imposing you view on the kingdom parables that the Lord returns at the end of them. No verse either states or implies that. In fact, the wheat and tares parable, the servents and the owner are present. The owner is not off in the Bahamas on vacation. So that shows that the owner (Yeshua) is physically present and that implies the millennial kingdom. It substantiates that the focus is the millennial kingdom on earth. In unison with the other kingdom parables.
 
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jgr

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Didn’t comment on it as it is yet another rabbit trail you are trying to lure me down. You never have refuted scripturally the Hosea and Matthew references. You seem to be fixated on who is Hebrew and who isn’t. That is YHWH’s job, not yours or mine. And He is the one who has to work that out to make what Yeshua stated in Hosea and Matthew come to pass.

You've characterized Yeshua as a liar because He does not covenant according to physical DNA, but only according to spiritual DNA; as Genesis 17:12 confirms.

Correct me if I've misunderstood.
 
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Copperhead

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You've characterized Yeshua as a liar because He does not covenant according to physical DNA, but only according to spiritual DNA; as Genesis 17:12 confirms.

Correct me if I've misunderstood.

Got to give you credit. You can take something someone says and twist it so it has no resemblance to what it was.

No, I specifically stated that if YHWH does not have a distinct group of Hebrews set aside to make the statements of Yeshua come to pass then that will make Yeshua out to be a liar. And I don’t believe for even a micro second that Yeshua is a liar. So YHWH will have a distinct group of Hebrews set aside for His purpose.

Now, how He does that is not anyone’s problem but His. And it is outside my pay grade and I don’t waste any time worrying about it. But just like Elijah thought he was all alone, and YHWH told Elijah that He had 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal, I am confident that He has true physical Hebrews still in the world.

And what would be the standard? Let’s see.... Boaz was the son of Rahab, so he was 1/2 Hebrew. He married the Moabitess Ruth, so their son Obed was 1/4 Hebrew. And that is the lineage of King David and Yeshua. So I think the Lord has things well under control regarding who are the Hebrews that will be part of those that collectively repent and call on Yeshua to return just as He prophecied.

It can be easy to get side tracked with conspiracy theories and goofy arguments about DNA and other stuff, but it can take one’s eyes off the target. And the adversary loves to set up red herrings to side track us.
 
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Copperhead

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He had no such group set aside in Genesis 17:12.

When did He change His mind?

Genesis 15.

You are referencing the sign of the covenant in Genesis 17. But the covenant is established with Abraham in Genesis 15. You err.

We know who in particular Yeshua was addressing in Matthew 23, and it was corporate leadership of the physical Hebrews that rejected Him. Obviously, not all Hebrews individually rejected Yeshua, but the Hebrews as a corporate identity did. And Yeshua is quite clear in Hosea 5 and Matthew 23 that that same corporate Hebrew identity will have to acknowledge and repent of that offense of rejection and petition for His return.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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You may not have heard of such a thing as you probably only stick within your own sphere of eschatology. Take a course at a Bible college and broaden you scope. What I have been referring to in the kingdom parables is more common teaching than you might imagine. Especially in Messianic groups.

Satan is indeed bound during the millennial reign. But what of the thousands of his cohorts who are also out to cause mischief? They are not bound. Sin eventually permeates the kingdom and when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, Revelation 20, there is so much discontent in the kingdom to enable Satan to stir up a revolt. Again, Psalms 2 elaborates on that.

You are imposing you view on the kingdom parables that the Lord returns at the end of them. No verse either states or implies that. In fact, the wheat and tares parable, the servents and the owner are present. The owner is not off in the Bahamas on vacation. So that shows that the owner (Yeshua) is physically present and that implies the millennial kingdom. It substantiates that the focus is the millennial kingdom on earth. In unison with the other kingdom parables.

The problem with seminaries and groups is that they indoctrinate one with their presuppositions, some of which are falsehoods, as no denomination or group has all the truth. One must allow Yah’s word alone to make such discernment. The Messianic groups start with the fallacious presupposition that the Sinai Covenant was not set aside by Christ, but as I stated to you, according to Romans 7:1-4, the body of Christ released both Ephraim and Judah from the previous marriage to be “betrothed” to Christ.

Good; now that we have established that Satan is bound during the age to come then it must follow that the parables in Matthew 13 cannot be preaching of the age to come because Satan is free to plant his sons alongside the sons of Yah in the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:25). Clearly, this means they abide together, insomuch as the parable has them separated only upon the harvest when the wheat is taken into the barn and the tares are gathered to ultimately be burned. This substantiates the parable is indicative of this age.

You’ve agreed that Satan is bound in Revelation 20, the age to come, which substantiates he is no longer free to plant his sons alongside the sons of Yah. Moreover, the context affirms the outcomes of the first resurrection, one of which is that the sons of Yah are secure from Satan and his cohorts until the end of the millennium when Satan is allowed to foment insurrection one last time. This agrees perfectly with the prophecy against Gog in Ezekiel 38, which is precisely where John takes us to preach what will happen in Satan’s final insurrection. In Ezekiel, Yah relates that Gog will be mustarded for this insurrection, the correlative of Revelation 20.

After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. (Ezekiel 38:8 ESV)​

The many day and the latter years can be none other than the millennium. In Ezekiel, Yah puts words, hooks, in Gog’s mouth.

and say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will fall upon the quiet people who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having no bars or gates,'to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth. (vs. 11-12)​

One must kick against he pricks to deny both John and Ezekiel are relating that the millennium, the age to come, represents the time of the autumnal harvest, Sukkot, when Israel will dwell safely. Zechariah 14 is also a correlative of the antitype of Sukkot.

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one. The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses…. Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. (Zechariah 14:9-10, 16-19)​

The only viable conclusion is that the harvest in the parable of the wheat and tares is the autumnal one, upon entering the antitypical time of Sukkot, which is substantiated in Ezekiel and Zechariah, nay all of the prophets, as the time Israel dwells safely and Satan in incarcerated and no longer able to plant his sons alongside the sons of Yah. The harvest in the parable of the wheat and tares is clearly substantiated by the prophets and the Hebraic festivals as the return of the Lord, Yeshua, at the end of this age.
 
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jgr

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But the covenant is established with Abraham in Genesis 15. You err.

It was. But the circumcision in Genesis 17:12 of those who were both of his seed, and not of his seed, was the sign that the covenant had been extended to all. This is further confirmed:

Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 34
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city.

Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


Circumcision was applicable to every male, ethnic or nonethnic, foreign or domestic, slave or free, servant or son; without distinction; as a sign of submission to, and compliance with, God's covenant.

Scripture does not err.
 
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Copperhead

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The problem with seminaries and groups is that they indoctrinate one with their presuppositions, some of which are falsehoods, as no denomination or group has all the truth. One must allow Yah’s word alone to make such discernment.

You make a valid point that many institutions cater to certain eschatological concepts. But the better ones also will discuss and evaluate the various positions on these things, along with teaching solid hermeneutical principles in how to study the scripture. And while Sola Scriptura is a valid concept, and one I hold to, it does not preclude looking at competing interpretations of the scripture and using sound hermeneutics in an attempt to find where the truth of these matters is.

This goes back to you saying that you had never heard such concepts as I was stating. They are not new or original. They may not be prevalent but that does not mean they are any less valid. The position I expounded is also based on Sola Scriptura. But different individuals see the scripture differently. And since none of us were the ones who were guided by the Holy Spirit to write the scripture, then to think any of us has a complete lock on the truth is extreme hubris on our part. All we can do is study these things using the light of the one who illuminated it to begin with, discuss these matters, and show scriptural support for our positions as best we can. And testing our assumptions by comparing to what others

And scripture lays out a very important rule in the Torah. For anything to be established, it has to be on the testimony of two or more witnesses. And the Bereans in Acts gave us that model. They studied the OT to find out if what Paul taught them (which would become the NT) was true. And they were commended by the Holy Spirit for that. So, for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be supported in both NT and OT. That adheres to Sola Scriptura and the Torah requirement of YHWH.

And I will have to admit, not many theological institutions support that idea.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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You make a valid point that many institutions cater to certain eschatological concepts. But the better ones also will discuss and evaluate the various positions on these things, along with teaching solid hermeneutical principles in how to study the scripture. And while Sola Scriptura is a valid concept, and one I hold to, it does not preclude looking at competing interpretations of the scripture and using sound hermeneutics in an attempt to find where the truth of these matters is.

This goes back to you saying that you had never heard such concepts as I was stating. They are not new or original. They may not be prevalent but that does not mean they are any less valid. The position I expounded is also based on Sola Scriptura. But different individuals see the scripture differently. And since none of us were the ones who were guided by the Holy Spirit to write the scripture, then to think any of us has a complete lock on the truth is extreme hubris on our part. All we can do is study these things using the light of the one who illuminated it to begin with, discuss these matters, and show scriptural support for our positions as best we can. And testing our assumptions by comparing to what others

And scripture lays out a very important rule in the Torah. For anything to be established, it has to be on the testimony of two or more witnesses. And the Bereans in Acts gave us that model. They studied the OT to find out if what Paul taught them (which would become the NT) was true. And they were commended by the Holy Spirit for that. So, for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be supported in both NT and OT. That adheres to Sola Scriptura and the Torah requirement of YHWH.

And I will have to admit, not many theological institutions support that idea.

OK, I’ve supported my position with both the Old and New Testaments to show that the harvest in the parable of the wheat and tares is the autumnal harvest, Sukkot, the antitype described in Ezekiel and Zechariah, which substantiates the parable indicates this age. And what makes you imply I haven’t looked “at competing interpretations of the scripture and using sound hermeneutics in an attempt to find where the truth of these matters is?” But don’t think that I’ve overlooked the moderate demeanor of your post and thank you for it.
 
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Copperhead

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OK, I’ve supported my position with both the Old and New Testaments to show that the harvest in the parable of the wheat and tares is the autumnal harvest, Sukkot, the antitype described in Ezekiel and Zechariah, which substantiates the parable indicates this age. And what makes you imply I haven’t looked “at competing interpretations of the scripture and using sound hermeneutics in an attempt to find where the truth of these matters?” But don’t think that I’ve overlooked the moderate demeanor of your post and thank you for it.

But you ignored the context of the Parable and one key feature.. that the servants and the owner are present. The owner is clearly a reference to Yeshua, and the servants are not part of the wheat or tares. And John tells us explicitly in Revelation 2 that the redeemed will rule and reign with the same rod of iron as Yeshua Himself in the kingdom. And when taken in light of the other kingdom parables, it would suggest the millennial reign of Messiah is in view. This is why they are commonly called the kingdom parables. They reference the Messianic Kingdom yet future.

Yeshua was constantly teaching in Israel that the kingdom is near. And He wanted to gather them together and establish that kingdom and be their King. But that was rescinded in Matthew 23:37-39. he consequences of that are laid out in Matthew 24-25.

But that kingdom will one day be realized here on earth. Yeshua in that discourse in Matthew 23:39 was referencing Hosea 5:15, that He would return to His place till the acknowledge their offense. In their distress, they will repent and cry out for Yeshua. That is the main purpose of the tribulation period yet future. To drive them to the wall to where there is no hope left and then they realize their offense of rejecting Yeshua and turn to Him.

And in Matthew 25, the sheep and goat judgement is an exposition on Joel 3. There will be both Jew and Gentile people that survive the tribulation period and go into the Messianic Kingdom here on earth and repopulate the earth. They will carry their sin nature with them.

And because of that, and the influence of the evil ones who are not locked up like Satan, sin will grow in the kingdom. Tares will be mixed with the wheat. The birds (evil ones in the parable of the sower) will be nesting in the tree of the Kingdom. The woman (what I believe is the spirit of Jezebel) will be introducing leaven (corruption / evil) into the kingdom to where it eventually will permeate the entire kingdom. The Kingdom Parables on full display.

That is why the Messianic Kingdom is finite. It is only 1000 years. If it was perfect, why wouldn't it last longer? It will show that even when living under the most perfect conditions, the sinful heart of man still rejects the Lord. Pretty sad final deal.

Then Satan will be released in Revelation 20 and go out and foment one final rebellion. This is expounded on in Psalms 2.

It will take a total elimination of the world and a new heaven and new earth to be created and only the redeemed are part of it. All evil and death is cast away.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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But you ignored the context of the Parable and one key feature.. that the servants and the owner are present. The owner is clearly a reference to Yeshua, and the servants are not part of the wheat or tares. And John tells us explicitly in Revelation 2 that the redeemed will rule and reign with the same rod of iron as Yeshua Himself in the kingdom. And when taken in light of the other kingdom parables, it would suggest the millennial reign of Messiah is in view. This is why they are commonly called the kingdom parables. They reference the Messianic Kingdom yet future.

Yeshua was constantly teaching in Israel that the kingdom is near. And He wanted to gather them together and establish that kingdom and be their King. But that was rescinded in Matthew 23:37-39. he consequences of that are laid out in Matthew 24-25.

But that kingdom will one day be realized here on earth. Yeshua in that discourse in Matthew 23:39 was referencing Hosea 5:15, that He would return to His place till the acknowledge their offense. In their distress, they will repent and cry out for Yeshua. That is the main purpose of the tribulation period yet future. To drive them to the wall to where there is no hope left and then they realize their offense of rejecting Yeshua and turn to Him.

And in Matthew 25, the sheep and goat judgement is an exposition on Joel 3. There will be both Jew and Gentile people that survive the tribulation period and go into the Messianic Kingdom here on earth and repopulate the earth. They will carry their sin nature with them.

And because of that, and the influence of the evil ones who are not locked up like Satan, sin will grow in the kingdom. Tares will be mixed with the wheat. The birds (evil ones in the parable of the sower) will be nesting in the tree of the Kingdom. The woman (what I believe is the spirit of Jezebel) will be introducing leaven (corruption / evil) into the kingdom to where it eventually will permeate the entire kingdom. The Kingdom Parables on full display.

That is why the Messianic Kingdom is finite. It is only 1000 years. If it was perfect, why wouldn't it last longer? It will show that even when living under the most perfect conditions, the sinful heart of man still rejects the Lord. Pretty sad final deal.

Then Satan will be released in Revelation 20 and go out and foment one final rebellion. This is expounded on in Psalms 2.

It will take a total elimination of the world and a new heaven and new earth to be created and only the redeemed are part of it. All evil and death is cast away.

The Biblical precedent is that both the prophets and the children of Israel were ascribed the title of “servants” while Yah and Yeshua were yet abiding in paradise, heaven (Psalms 11:4; Isaiah 48:8-9, 43:10, 44:1-2; Jeremiah 7:25, 25:4; John 3:13). There is nothing in the parable that overwhelmingly affirms your perception. And the precedent maintains the servants did abide with the reprobate that cannot be dismissed in interpreting the parable. Furthermore, the mention of the timing of the harvest simply cannot be dismissed in perceiving the “servants” maintain the aforesaid precedent. There is no harvest indicated in Hebraic festivals that occurs after the millennium; the indication of the first resurrection is that those who are determined as Israel is consummated, the harvest is completed upon entering the millennium.

Your perception of the increase of the wickedness from those who survive Christ’s return has not surmounted the texts in Ezekiel and Zechariah. Both texts substantiate that Christ’s kingdom subdues those who survive as oppose to the notion of the influence of the wicked expanding. This is further substantiated in other texts.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)
Even in the sheep and goats’ depiction in Matthew 25, the sheep are rewarded and the goats are banished.

The depiction in Zechariah and Ezekiel substantiate security for Israel in the antitype of Sukkot that your interpretation simply cannot surmount, either. This is why the leaven is more easily reconciled to this age, the church age, where leaven was part of the offering in the Hebraic festival of Pentecost. We are in the antitypical Penticostal age. And for these reasons, Psalms 2 more accurately represents this age.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Now again, as I affirmed in my prior post, Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard (Matthew 21:43), which are the gentiles-as they assimilate them! Zechariah 11 prophesies that Judah would be cast off at Christ’s first advent and that God would “break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel” (Verse 14). What I stated was accurate, according to scripture. The enmity between Judah and Israel can only be coherently explained in the NT evidence that Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit. This commences with the foundation that the descendants of the ten tribes fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah.

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:7-9)​

This was written after the return from the Babylonian captivity and prophecy of another diaspora, specifically for Ephraim, which is also the name in the OT for the ten northern tribes, as is Joseph, in contrast to Judah. In essence, God will hiss, or call Ephraim and gather them in Christ and then scatter them in the world to bring in the gentiles, which was not the plan for Judah. Judah was to be hardened in the age (Romans 11). The kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the nation of Ephraim/Joseph (Matthew 21:43), which is what Peter confirms in his epistle.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)​

Both Peter, and Hosea, from whence Peter quotes, are referring to the descendants of the ten northern tribes that were dwelling in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia at that time, which was affirmed by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote, “the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers." Zechariah 10:7-9 is the source for the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. In bearing the fruit of the vineyard, by taking the gospel to the world, they gain the enmity of the Jews who reject Christ as their Messiah.
 
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