Where is Jesus?

HatGuy

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Well, why are you perusing the Internet? You have some work to do.

And by work, I mean a lot of work. Even the Bayaka people of the Central African Republic have encountered Westerners and Christianity.

Or maybe your work will be easy. If and when you do find a people group that has not been reached, surely you will encounter boatloads of other Christian missionaries who felt the same sense of urgency as you and who are living in their huts and telling Bible stories with gestures.
I know some guys who work into Indonesia. There are a ton of unreached people groups there alone. A quick Internet search (since I'm perusing the Internet) says there are 234 unreached people groups there.

I live in Africa. I've seen unreached people. I've spoken to them. I've seen people hear about Jesus for the first time.

Still I don't see your point. If there are a ton of Christian ministries working today into unreached people groups, then that means not all the world is reached yet. So not sure what your last para was all about.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Residential Bob said:
Well, why are you perusing the Internet? You have some work to do.

And by work, I mean a lot of work. Even the Bayaka people of the Central African Republic have encountered Westerners and Christianity.

Or maybe your work will be easy. If and when you do find a people group that has not been reached, surely you will encounter boatloads of other Christian missionaries who felt the same sense of urgency as you and who are living in their huts and telling Bible stories with gestures.
I live in Africa. I've seen unreached people. I've spoken to them. I've seen people hear about Jesus for the first time. If there are a ton of Christian ministries working today into unreached people groups, then that means not all the world is reached yet. So not sure what your last para was all about.
Jesus specifically said "full of of the AGE" not the end of the "world/planet".

If Jesus would have meant the whole world in Matt 24:3, He would have used <2889 kosmos> instead of <165. aion>

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when? shall these be being,
and what? the Sign of Thy parousia<3952>,
and full-Consummation<4931-5055> of the Age<165>.

This was written BEFORE 70ad:

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia<3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
============================
And yes, still a few billions of people to reach

Luk 10:2
Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few;
therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.


Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means.
If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations.
Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind.
It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation.
 
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Residential Bob

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I know some guys who work into Indonesia. There are a ton of unreached people groups there alone. A quick Internet search (since I'm perusing the Internet) says there are 234 unreached people groups there.

I live in Africa. I've seen unreached people. I've spoken to them. I've seen people hear about Jesus for the first time.

Still I don't see your point. If there are a ton of Christian ministries working today into unreached people groups, then that means not all the world is reached yet. So not sure what your last para was all about.
Can you name some of these Indonesian groups in which the people have not been in contact with Christianity? 234 names preferably, but a few might work.

But modern-day evangelism aside, why would you deny what St. Paul says? You "take the view that "ethnos" means all ethnic groups. Which means the gospel has not gone into all the world yet." You're correct; that is your view. Your opinion is all it is. You take a view that counters the Scriptures.
 
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Residential Bob

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Jesus specifically said "full of of the AGE" not the end of the "world/planet".

If Jesus would have meant the whole world in Matt 24:3, He would have used <2889 kosmos> instead of <165. aion>

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when? shall these be being,
and what? the Sign of Thy parousia<3952>,
and full-Consummation<4931-5055> of the Age<165>.

This was written BEFORE 70ad:

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
============================
And yes, still a few billions of people to reach

Luk 10:2
Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few;
therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.


Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means.
If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations.
Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.

It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind.
It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation.
"followers of Mohammed"

That's the real kicker. Islam reaches remote populations more effectively than Christian missionaries do.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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"followers of Mohammed"

That's the real kicker. Islam reaches remote populations more effectively than Christian missionaries do.
Another fact is that Islam is actually closer to Christianity than the OC religion of Judaism.
Islam believes Jesus was born of the virgin Mary [and like the RCs, they revere her], they believe Jesus was a great Prophet, but sent only to the Jews and not the world, as they view Mohammed as sent by "Allah" to convert all to Islam, and they don't believe Jesus died on the Cross.

However, Islam is guilty of plagiarism by copying from our Bible ;).

I debated with them for awhile [this was while I was just a NoOb in Christ ehehe]...they practically consider Paul a false Apostle the led the Jews astray.

Can Muhammad and Paul be buddies
Hi. Will Muhammad and the Apostle Paul both be in heaven and will they ever become buddies at the "End"? Do all Muslims reject the dear friend of Jesus and did he ever say anything bad about Jesus that the Muslims would despise him? Thanks.

http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16255&PN=2

No, Muhamamd pbuh did not copy Paul. What was said by Muhammad pbuh was from Allah swt.

Just for Laurieann--Muslims do not consider any verse in the Qur'an to quote the Bible, not a single one. Every letter in the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, from God. Muslims acknowledge that God revealed Scripture before the Qur'an, and some of that does appear in the Bible. The same source is God. It's a common error to say that the Qur'an uses the Bible as a source, when in fact, it's more correct to say that the Qur'an totally and the Bible partially are directly from God, the same source. So naturally, there are similarities.

And I don't think this verse is the only one of Paul's that coincides with Islamic theory. Overall, the theology of Paul is totally denounced by the Qur'an and hadith. If you strip it down to the basics, essentially it's rejected. But Paul wasn't completely off base. Do you know why? Because he was Jewish, studying in the Jewish tradition, and had come from a religion that was very knowledgeable about previous scriptures--that influenced his writing. That is to say, his knowledge of Jewish texts that had been previously revealed by God was extensive, and had a strong impact on his new Christian theology.

Muslims while denouncing the changes he affected with his new doctrine, would naturally accept many of the premises on which he built it--because they are Jewish in nature, and based on the Torah and the Psalms.
========================
.
Judaism is stuck in the middle, and that religion will always be the tail, according to Scripture

Deuteronomy 28:13

‘And Yahweh hath given thee for head, and not for tail; and thou hast been only above, and art not beneath, if thou dost hearken unto the commands of Jehovah thy God, which I am commanding thee to-day, to keep and to do,

They failed and became the tail:

Isaiah 9:
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel,
Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 Elder and accepted of face is the head, Prophet, teacher of falsehood is the tail.
=======
Some Christianity and Islam similarity threads:

https://www.google.com/search?q=chr...hq0KHVaiA8oQrQIoBDANegQIAhAN&biw=1366&bih=626


-
 
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Ing Bee

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By biblical accounts, Jesus should have come by now.

Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Mt 24:14)

My conviction is that Matthew 23-24 is confined to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. Compare the parallel passages in the synoptics and read Peter's very interesting take on Joel 2. This accords with John the Baptist condemning the pharisees & saducees in Matt. 3:7 (who no longer exist) "Who told YOU to escape the coming wrath?!" Jesus curses on "this generation" in Matt. 23, Peter's urging people to save themselves from THIS crooked generation in Acts 2, etc.

Do a little word study on the phrase "Day of the LORD (Yahweh)" at BibleHub or other online bible software. With only one exception that I can see (referring to the missed Sabbaths) all other passages including those in Joel 2 are about judgement and destruction.

In saying this, I'm a) not trying to be controversial and b) not denying a second bodily return of Christ. I think that job #1 is to separate those things that have totally been fulfilled from things that might be "pending".
 
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Bruce Leiter

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By biblical accounts, Jesus should have come by now.

Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Mt 24:14). In the first century, the Gospel was preached in all the nations (Rm 1:8; 16:26; Col 1:6, 23).

Jesus said that abounding lawlessness is another sign of the imminence of the end (Mt 24:12). In the first century, even before the end of the age, the mystery of lawlessness was already at work (2 Thes 2:7).

Israelites were anxious for Elijah’s return, for that was another sign of the end of the age (Mal 4:5-6). In the first century, Elijah returned (Mt 17:12).

Jesus said he would raise up a new temple within days of the current temple’s destruction (Jn 2:19). In the first century, the new temple was being raised (1 Pt 2:5).

Jesus said many false prophets would lead many astray (Mt 24:11). The New Testament canon is replete with such occurrences in the first century, such as Acts 5:36-37.

In the first century, prophecy seems to have been fulfilled. So where’s Jesus?
Jesus' physical body is in heaven, but his deity is everywhere along with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the one true God. Of course, your question really means why hasn't he returned. First, the signs that you talk about have direct and deeper ways that God will fulfill when he wants to. Jesus will come back when his church is complete. If you want him to return soon, witness to your neighbor and co-worker so that God can save them and send Jesus.
 
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Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Mt 24:14). In the first century, the Gospel was preached in all the nations (Rm 1:8; 16:26; Col 1:6, 23).

I think it is possible that not all nations have had the gospel of the kingdom proclaimed to them. Christian often preach the doctrines of men and maybe there are still nations that have not really had the right message.
 
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HatGuy

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Can you name some of these Indonesian groups in which the people have not been in contact with Christianity? 234 names preferably, but a few might work.
Go to Joshuaproject.net and see for yourself. It's a really interesting site with tons of stats.

But modern-day evangelism aside, why would you deny what St. Paul says? You "take the view that "ethnos" means all ethnic groups. Which means the gospel has not gone into all the world yet." You're correct; that is your view. Your opinion is all it is. You take a view that counters the Scriptures.
To come to a theology forum and moan about how people have opinions is the height of lol.

My opinion is based on a reasonable conclusion from what is actually going on in the real world. There is so much hurt and brokenness, and unreached people, and clearly the Kingdom has not come in fullness, and God has purposes for us to fulfil in our generation. Therefore, Paul's meaning in the original Greek in Colossians and Romans must be different to what you suppose. And one doesn't have to do mental gymnastics to uncover a different meaning. Or one can live in la la land and claim the whole earth is already reached, ignore Jesus' commandments to reach it, and ignore the reality of our time.
 
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parousia70

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why this avoidance game? I asked you if "Kosmos" is unique to the Roman world or if it goes beyond it as it pertains to John 3:16. Why not just answer the question? I already know what I think of the text, I'm interested in what you think of the text.

And I have asked you multiple questions you've refuse to answer... opting instead to play the avoidance game...
Is this a conversation or are you simply interested in conducting an interrogation?
 
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parousia70

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John 3:16 says "God so loved the word...." what "world" is this? do you think it's "God so loved the Roman world" or do you think this word stretches to all people groups that inhabit even the unknown places of the world? if the latter than it would be consistent to interpret Mt 24:14 in like manner.

How can you possibly have come up with that?

Lest look closer at Matt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

According to Paul, (and therefore the Holy Spirit) this reality came to pass before the end of His earthly ministry:
Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Now I realize many Christians don't hold Paul as authoritative or inspired and therefore assert he is fallible and prone to error, but I'm not one of them.

I Believe Paul was infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, who knew very well exactly what He was doing when He infallibly inspired Paul to declare the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 In Paul's Day.

But that's just me.
It's clear in this thread alone that many folks here dismiss the above passages as incorrect and untrustworthy.

Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

The argument against this seems to be: "The apostles were saying that the Gospel had been preached to the world as they knew it, but the Gospel has to reach the world as we know it before Christ will return."

First, where does the Scripture speak of Christ's words being fulfilled during the twenty first century as we know it? This is the world's way of trying to make the Bible fit their view. Second, why would the apostles even mention the fact of the Gospel reaching its destination if there was no prophetic significance? All that would do is confuse those to whom they were writing. After all, their readers were perfectly aware that Christ had predicted His return once the Gospel had been preached in these areas. What other predictions were there besides those of the Lord? From the Scripture, we can be certain that all these predictions regarding the destination of the Gospel were fulfilled.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. In Contrast, The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70.

Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in the first century is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.
 
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DamianWarS

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How can you possibly have come up with that?

Lest look closer at Matt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

According to Paul, (and therefore the Holy Spirit) this reality came to pass before the end of His earthly ministry:
Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Now I realize many Christians don't hold Paul as authoritative or inspired and therefore assert he is fallible and prone to error, but I'm not one of them.

I Believe Paul was infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, who knew very well exactly what He was doing when He infallibly inspired Paul to declare the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 In Paul's Day.

But that's just me.
It's clear in this thread alone that many folks here dismiss the above passages as incorrect and untrustworthy.

Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

The argument against this seems to be: "The apostles were saying that the Gospel had been preached to the world as they knew it, but the Gospel has to reach the world as we know it before Christ will return."

First, where does the Scripture speak of Christ's words being fulfilled during the twenty first century as we know it? This is the world's way of trying to make the Bible fit their view. Second, why would the apostles even mention the fact of the Gospel reaching its destination if there was no prophetic significance? All that would do is confuse those to whom they were writing. After all, their readers were perfectly aware that Christ had predicted His return once the Gospel had been preached in these areas. What other predictions were there besides those of the Lord? From the Scripture, we can be certain that all these predictions regarding the destination of the Gospel were fulfilled.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. In Contrast, The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70.

Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in the first century is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.
I infer by this that you think kosmos in John 3:16 is inclusive of the unknown world but for some reason refuse to say it. doing word searches are fun but they don't mean they all inherit the same meaning.

Paul speaks in contextual and colloquial terms, he doesn't have a copy of Matthew laid before him nor does he declare prophetic fulfillment or in any way connect these colloquial terms back to Christ's declaration in Mat 24:14. Since those he wrote to also did not have a copy of Matthew you would think he would find it important to make this connection. Paul's context is also inclusive of the known world. The Romans, the Colossians, Philippians, and his collective works are an example of the world he speaks of. So when he speaks to the Colossians he means them in this preaching the gospel to the world.

Christ speaks in broader terms than Paul, implicitly declaring the gospel is just not for the jews which is consistent with other messages that also declare the same such as John 3:16. if John 3:16 means beyond the known world which you refuse to comment on then these other references that are used to declare the known world only must be reconciled and it's the difference of context. Christ's words use broader/transcendent terms as he does with pretty much everything he says. He is speaking to the Jews but he references outside them and the scope of the gospel has no limits.

of course, this won't convince you, but it is certainly reasonable to interpret Paul's use of the known world in a colloquial sense and Christ use with deeper meaning in terms of spreading the gospel. I myself see Christ speaking in layers addressing both the concrete and abstract, physical/spiritual, the immediate/long term, or the shallow and the deep So where Christ may have satisfied a colloquial sense of the word he is also speaking in a far broader sense and saying "...then the end will come" is loaded with different reference points.
 
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parousia70

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Paul speaks in contextual and colloquial terms, he doesn't have a copy of Matthew laid before him
Source?

Since those he wrote to also did not have a copy of Matthew
Again, Source? Paul Himself, and Those Paul wrote to were 100% IGNORANT of Matthew's Gospel?
Really? That claim is at odds with most scholars, who indeed attribute Matthew's Gospel as the foundation upon which Paul draws heavily upon for His teachings.

But let's assume you are correct for a moment and Paul and His audience were 100% IGNORANT of Matthew's Gospel..How were they Saved? How did they Know all Truth without it?
Is your claim that Matthews Gospel is not NECESSARY for a proper understanding of Jesus Message?
Should it be redacted from our Bibles? If the Thessalonians, Phillippians, Ephesians etc Didn't need it, do we?
Christ speaks in broader terms than Paul, implicitly declaring the gospel is just not for the jews which is consistent with other messages that also declare the same such as John 3:16. if John 3:16 means beyond the known world which you refuse to comment on then these other references that are used to declare the known world only must be reconciled and it's the difference of context. Christ's words use broader/transcendent terms as he does with pretty much everything he says. He is speaking to the Jews but he references outside them and the scope of the gospel has no limits.

Has no limits? that is the closest you've come to answering my question:
Again, the Gospel is EVERLASTING..It has no Expiration date.
Do you Disagree? So far, for some reason, you haven't said.
Do you believe the Gospel will ever cease in its mission to be preached to Sinners on earth and invite them to Salvation? OR in your view does it have a "limit" after all?

I the first century, Jesus gave the Apostles a specific geographic SCOPE in spreading the Gospel that they were ordained to complete prior to Jesus 1st century Coming In Judgement upon Israel.
Paul declares that scope fulfilled in His day. Such in no way negates the everlasting nature of the Gospel as you seem to want to imply...
We are to accept Pauls Declaration, not try to wiggle out of it with semantics...

but it is certainly reasonable to interpret Paul's use of the known world in a colloquial sense and Christ use with deeper meaning in terms of spreading the gospel.

So you are Saying the Holy Spirit (and therefore Jesus) was not speaking all knowingly, and infallibly, with just as deep a meaning as ever, through Paul, and rather it was simply Paul's fallible, shallow mortal Musings? As I said in my previous post I know many Christians who feel that way about Pauls teachings... Do you count yourself as one of them?
 
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Residential Bob

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Go to Joshuaproject.net and see for yourself. It's a really interesting site with tons of stats.


To come to a theology forum and moan about how people have opinions is the height of lol.

My opinion is based on a reasonable conclusion from what is actually going on in the real world. There is so much hurt and brokenness, and unreached people, and clearly the Kingdom has not come in fullness, and God has purposes for us to fulfil in our generation. Therefore, Paul's meaning in the original Greek in Colossians and Romans must be different to what you suppose. And one doesn't have to do mental gymnastics to uncover a different meaning. Or one can live in la la land and claim the whole earth is already reached, ignore Jesus' commandments to reach it, and ignore the reality of our time.
Ah, yes, the Joshua Project who have found people groups that no one else has (and mysteriously whom they have not yet evangelized). Just name some, won't you? And make sure they're legitimate and legitimately unreached.

As to your opinion, I didn't bemoan it; your accusation is false. I said only that it wasn't scriptural.
 
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parousia70

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God has purposes for us to fulfil in our generation.

Perhaps, but those purposes have NOTHING to do with Eschatology.

Therefore, Paul's meaning in the original Greek in Colossians and Romans must be different to what you suppose.

Or not.

Or one can live in la la land and claim the whole earth is already reached, ignore Jesus' commandments to reach it,

No one is ignoring Jesus command, but it seems clear you have misinterpreted it to suit your previously held bias.
In Matthew 24:14, Jesus Commanded His APOSTLES, specifically, to evangelize the Roman Empire before He returned in Judgement upon 1st century Jerusalem.

Paul Infallibly proclaims the fulfillment of that mission before the end of His earthly ministry.
It's all in literal back and white on the pages of scripture, plain as day.

No mental gymnastics needed, certainly not in the way mental gymnastics are needed to stretch "Soon, at hand, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay & Near" into 2 millennia and counting....

and ignore the reality of our time.

What reality would that be?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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My conviction is that Matthew 23-24 is confined to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. Compare the parallel passages in the synoptics and read Peter's very interesting take on Joel 2. This accords with John the Baptist condemning the pharisees & saducees in Matt. 3:7 (who no longer exist) "Who told YOU to escape the coming wrath?!" Jesus curses on "this generation" in Matt. 23, Peter's urging people to save themselves from THIS crooked generation in Acts 2, etc.

Do a little word study on the phrase "Day of the LORD (Yahweh)" at BibleHub or other online bible software. With only one exception that I can see (referring to the missed Sabbaths) all other passages including those in Joel 2 are about judgement and destruction.

In saying this, I'm a) not trying to be controversial and b) not denying a second bodily return of Christ. I think that job #1 is to separate those things that have totally been fulfilled from things that might be "pending".
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
I also view 1st century Jerusalem as that City in Revelation as do a lot of spirit led Christians.

Mat 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
Mat 12:34
“Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?
No mental gymnastics needed, certainly not in the way mental gymnastics are needed to stretch "Soon, at hand, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay & Near" into 2 millennia and counting....
Inquiring minds want to know!
Have you seen this thread I created on that?

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY


Matt and Luke also mention 1st century Jerusalem being desolated:

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee,....
Behold! left desolate to you is your house;
Luke 13:34
‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem
, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her......
35 ‘Behold! your house is being left to you desolate,

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, ‘Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,
19 and they did cast dust upon their heads, and were crying out, weeping and sorrowing, saying, Woe, woe, the great City! in which were made rich all having ships in the sea, out of her costliness —
for in one hour was She made desolate

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


...................................
 
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DamianWarS

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Ah, yes, the Joshua Project who have found people groups that no one else has (and mysteriously whom they have not yet evangelized). Just name some, won't you? And make sure they're legitimate and legitimately unreached.

As to your opinion, I didn't bemoan it; your accusation is false. I said only that it wasn't scriptural.
are you suggesting Joshua Project is corrupt?
 
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Residential Bob

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are you suggesting Joshua Project is corrupt?
I wouldn't say that. Agenda-driven, maybe. They appear to be feeding the futurist need for this prophecy to remain unfulfilled (even though scripture says it's already fulfilled).

By the fourth century, the entire Roman Empire had been exposed to Christianity; half the empire was Christian, in fact. When Europeans began to colonize the planet in the sixteenth century, Christianity began reaching the most remote corners of the world.

And then all of a sudden - the last 100 years or so - the last few pockets of the "unreached" just never seem to go away. If this prophecy is no longer unfulfilled (and of course it already is), then futurists would have to scramble for yet another reason why Christ continues to delay his return.
 
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DamianWarS

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I wouldn't say that. Agenda-driven, maybe. They appear to be feeding the futurist need for this prophecy to remain unfulfilled (even though scripture says it's already fulfilled).

By the fourth century, the entire Roman Empire had been exposed to Christianity; half the empire was Christian, in fact. When Europeans began to colonize the planet in the sixteenth century, Christianity began reaching the most remote corners of the world.

And then all of a sudden - the last 100 years or so - the last few pockets of the "unreached" just never seem to go away. If this prophecy is no longer unfulfilled (and of course it already is), then futurists would have to scramble for yet another reason why Christ continues to delay his return.
what you call agenda driven they might call passion driven. JP is just doing what they believe. Saying there are no unreached people groups is a bit of a red herring, just because the gospel hasn't reached an area doesn't mean those areas can't be accurately measured how much the gospel has had an impact.
 
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parousia70

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I wouldn't say that. Agenda-driven, maybe. They appear to be feeding the futurist need for this prophecy to remain unfulfilled (even though scripture says it's already fulfilled).

The Sentinelese people have assured that a "Hyper-Literal, futurist based fulfillment of Matthew 24:14" won't happen anytime in our generation.

Sentinelese - Survival International
 
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