Isaiah 14:20 Who is the person?

Douggg · Feb 8, 2013

Biblewriter said:
We know that in Biblical prophecy a beast represents a king, for Daniel was told that “Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.”(Daniel 7:17) But this beast can not be the king of the revived ·Roman Empire, for that is the beast that John had seen “rising up out of the sea” (Revelation 13:1) This is “another beast.” (verse 11) The next verse stresses this by twice referring to “the first beast.” (Revelation 13:12) We should remember that God does not waste words. Every detail in a prophecy is significant. If God says something, it is important. If He says it twice, how much more so. The Holy Spirit considered this so important He repeated it three times in just two verses! This beast is not the same as the previous one.

I highlighted part of your text James. That first beast has to be associated with the end times Roman Empire as it's king... because the first beast has the dual meaning of both a kingdom and a king.

This is where you have not taken into account the progression of the Antichrist's career. The Antichrist's career starts as the little horn emerging among the ten kings. That takes place before the 7 years begin. He is a long way from being the beast of Revelation 13 at that stage.

Becoming the leader of those ten kings, makes him the end times king of the Roman Empire. He will be different than the other ten kings, it doesn't say how, but I believe that it is because he is a Jew.

That leader is the prophesied 7th king in Revelation 17:10. He will be the seventh king of the family of seven kings of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire.

The little horn, not only will be a Jew, but he will be the 7th ruler of the Roman Empire descended from the Julio-Claudians - the Caesars. Nero was the last of that family bloodline, as the sixth ruler of the Roman Empire, at the time of John.

In Daniel 8, as the little horn, he waxes strong to the south and east toward the promised land. Which, in my scenario, has him coming to the rescue of the Jews, himself being a Jew, when Gog/Magog attacks. He arrives late to the supernatural destruction that God lays on Gog's army. But according to all Jewish train of thought they believe their messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. That God supernaturally destroys their enemies, to their existance, and possession of the land - will
cause them to think that the little horn is the arrival of their messiah (because of his intent to defend them) to usher in the messianic age of peace and safety.

Keep in mind, at Jesus's crucifixion, they shouted we have no king but Caesar. How ironic, the little horn, not only will be a Jew, but he will be the 7th ruler of the Roman Empire descended from the Julio-Claudians - the Caesars. Nero was the last of that family bloodline, as the sixth ruler of the Roman Empire, at the time of John.

All through his career, from beginning to end, the Antichrist is tied to the ten kings of Europe.

When he betrays the Jews, even though he is embraced as their King, and sells out to Satan, commits the act of the man of sin going into the temple declaring that he is God, for which God has him killed, then later kicked out of the grave.... he was that 7th king of the Roman Empire originally...
and ends up being possessed by the unclean spirit of the beast in the bottomless pit....which will fulfill that beast to become the 8th king (Revelation 17:11) of the Roman Empire, as the Antichrist-beast. The first beast of Revelation 13.

His ten-king power base that he first emerges from sticks with him his entire career. That is why the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, because they all believe that he is God at that stage and rule with him over the world, as the dominant block of countries.

Doug

ebedmelech · Feb 8, 2013

Isaiah 14 is a poetic prophecy against Satan and it speaks to his ultimate demise.

That's what it is.

You start with verse 1:
When the Lord will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob.

This is speaking to Jesus coming as Messiah after Israel was restored! It's speaks to His atoning death which allows Jews and Gentiles to become "the Israel of God. That's why it speaks to "strangers attaching themself to Jacob"! It has spiritual Israel in mind.

Verse 2:
2 The peoples will take them along and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them as an inheritance in the land of the Lord as male servants and female servants; and they will take their captors captive and will rule over their oppressors.

This is speaking to the time when Israel is restored to the land and Jesus makes the scene as Messiah. This is not an entirely literal prophecy! It's partly spiritual that has Psalm 68:19 in view:
18 You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

Psalm 68:19 is quoted by Paul in Ephesians 4:8!

We are the inheritance!

This is just a staring point...however I have no desire to derail this thread. Suffice it to say this speaks to Satan's ultimate demise for the most part.

Douggg · Feb 8, 2013

Biblewriter said:
(Revelation 13:14-15) Many think this proves the first beast is the Antichrist, but they forget that Jesus taught men to worship the Father. (see John 4:21-24) The Antichrist will imitate the true Christ. Even as the true Christ taught us to worship the Father, the Antichrist will teach men to worship the Beast. Even as the true Christ did signs and wonders to make men believe, (see John 4:48) the Antichrist will perform great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
(Revelation 13:13)

Hi James, did Jesus instruct men to worship a idol, a statue image of God?

That's what the false prophet will do.

We have been noticing that the Antichrist imitates the true Christ. But the Satanic imitation goes beyond this to an unholy trinity. We see this in Revelation 16:13, where John saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. These three will act together in their crimes and will be together in their punishment.

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20) (Two men (Enoch, in Genesis 5 :22-24, and Elijah, in 2 Kings 2:11-12) were so holy that they were taken to heaven without tasting death. These two will be so evil that they will be cast alive into the lake of fire, only to be joined later by the devil himself.)

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

In this unholy trinity, the dragon, or the devil, takes the place of the Holy Spirit. In like manner the beast, that is, the Roman ruler, takes the place of the Father, and the false prophet takes the place of the Son.

I don't buy that the Antichrist imitates Jesus at all. No matter whether a person interprets the first beast or the second beast to be the Antichrist.

The first beast kills multitudes; Jesus didn't do that. The second beast has an idol made of the first beast; Jesus didn't have an idol made.

It is a popular practice to mirror the Father/Son/Holy Spirit to the evil counterparts in Satan, the Antichrist, and False Prophet. You have switched around who is who in your version of the evil trinity from the norm. Nonetheless, it is still just an idea, not a biblical statement.

I don't see any Anti-counterpart to the Holy Spirit as being Satan, or the Antichrist, or the False Prophet. However, I do see a Anti-counter part to the Holy Spirit in the unclean beast spirit that will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the Antichrist.

In Christians, the Holy Spirit influences our thinking and actions. In the Antichrist-beast, the unclean spirit that will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess him, will have a similar (of course opposite) impact on the Antichrist person in his thinking and actions. That unclean spirit will drive him to lead the world in rebellion against God. As Nimrod did at the tower of Babel.

Doug

Douggg · Feb 8, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Isaiah 14 is a poetic prophecy against Satan and it speaks to his ultimate demise.

That's what it is.

You start with verse 1:
When the Lord will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob.

This is speaking to Jesus coming as Messiah after Israel was restored! It's speaks to His atoning death which allows Jews and Gentiles to become "the Israel of God. That's why it speaks to "strangers attaching themself to Jacob"! It has spiritual Israel in mind.

So you think Christians are going to be the maid and servant captives to the Jews? The strangers (Gentile Christians in your view) become the servants and handmaids.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Biblewriter · Feb 8, 2013

Douggg said:
Hi James, the problem with that interpretation is that the king in Daniel 11, which you have proved to be a Jew and the Antichrist, does not escape but comes to his end in Daniel 11:45 when....

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help

him.

It totally escapes me how you can make this out to be the king (of Israel.) This is the one that attacks him.

It is not talking about a false prophet of Revelation 13. It is talking about the beast, the eighth king. Who is the first beast of Revelation 13, not the second. It is the first beast who claims to be God, not the second.

I agree with you that Micah 4:9 talks about Jerusalem being without a king as the nations surround her, but that is after the Antichrist their perceived king messiah has betrayed them by selling out to Satan.... leaving them without a king, except in the Lord Jesus Christ whom they will embrace as their Lord, Savior, and King, to welcome him back "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

In Daniel 11, those end time battles, God has drawn all of the armies of the world into the middle east - which as the kings of the East have crossed over the Euphrates, troubling the Antichrist-beast in Daniel 11:44, it is then that the heavens part and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand...

The attacks on the Antichrist-beast in Daniel 11, from the king of the North, and South, and the Kings of the east, takes place right at the end of the 7 years, because Revelation 16:12, the 6th vial, has the Euphrates drying up allowing the kings of the east to come across with a massive 200,000,000 man army. And at that time, it says in Revelation 16:13-16, the three evil spirits proceed from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and false prophet, to unify all of the world's armies at Armageddon for the express purpose of fighting against Jesus, Revelation 19:19....

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The false prophet in Revelation is not a warrior. The warrior is the first beast. (paraphrased) "Who can make war with the beast?" Revelation 13:4

The false prophet comes out of the earth, because he is just a man with no dual meaning of also being kingdom (like the first beast in Revelation 13:1-2). The beasts in Daniel 7 when they come out of the sea, is that they are kingdoms. However, in Daniel 7:17, when those same beasts are said to come out of the earth, they are - men.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Biblewriter · Feb 8, 2013

Douggg said:
I highlighted part of your text James. That first beast has to be associated with the end times Roman Empire as it's king... because the first beast has the dual meaning of both a kingdom and a king.

This is where you have not taken into account the progression of the Antichrist's career. The Antichrist's career starts as the little horn emerging among the ten kings. That takes place before the 7 years begin. He is a long way from being the beast of Revelation 13 at that stage.

Becoming the leader of those ten kings, makes him the end times king of the Roman Empire. He will be different than the other ten kings, it doesn't say how, but I believe that it is because he is a Jew.

That leader is the prophesied 7th king in Revelation 17:10. He will be the seventh king of the family of seven kings of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire.

The little horn, not only will be a Jew, but he will be the 7th ruler of the Roman Empire descended from the Julio-Claudians - the Caesars. Nero was the last of that family bloodline, as the sixth ruler of the Roman Empire, at the time of John.

In Daniel 8, as the little horn, he waxes strong to the south and east toward the promised land. Which, in my scenario, has him coming to the rescue of the Jews, himself being a Jew, when Gog/Magog attacks. He arrives late to the supernatural destruction that God lays on Gog's army. But according to all Jewish train of thought they believe their messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. That God supernaturally destroys their enemies, to their existance, and possession of the land - will
cause them to think that the little horn is the arrival of their messiah (because of his intent to defend them) to usher in the messianic age of peace and safety.

Keep in mind, at Jesus's crucifixion, they shouted we have no king but Caesar. How ironic, the little horn, not only will be a Jew, but he will be the 7th ruler of the Roman Empire descended from the Julio-Claudians - the Caesars. Nero was the last of that family bloodline, as the sixth ruler of the Roman Empire, at the time of John.

All through his career, from beginning to end, the Antichrist is tied to the ten kings of Europe.

When he betrays the Jews, even though he is embraced as their King, and sells out to Satan, commits the act of the man of sin going into the temple declaring that he is God, for which God has him killed, then later kicked out of the grave.... he was that 7th king of the Roman Empire originally...
and ends up being possessed by the unclean spirit of the beast in the bottomless pit....which will fulfill that beast to become the 8th king (Revelation 17:11) of the Roman Empire, as the Antichrist-beast. The first beast of Revelation 13.

His ten-king power base that he first emerges from sticks with him his entire career. That is why the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, because they all believe that he is God at that stage and rule with him over the world, as the dominant block of countries.

Doug

It seems that you did not understand me. I said that the beast of Revelation 13:1 is the Roman ruler, and that seems to also be what you are saying.

Biblewriter · Feb 8, 2013

Douggg said:
Hi James, did Jesus instruct men to worship a idol, a statue image of God?

That's what the false prophet will do.

I don't buy that the Antichrist imitates Jesus at all. No matter whether a person interprets the first beast or the second beast to be the Antichrist.

The first beast kills multitudes; Jesus didn't do that. The second beast has an idol made of the first beast; Jesus didn't have an idol made.

It is a popular practice to mirror the Father/Son/Holy Spirit to the evil counterparts in Satan, the Antichrist, and False Prophet. You have switched around who is who in your version of the evil trinity from the norm. Nonetheless, it is still just an idea, not a biblical statement.

I don't see any Anti-counterpart to the Holy Spirit as being Satan, or the Antichrist, or the False Prophet. However, I do see a Anti-counter part to the Holy Spirit in the unclean beast spirit that will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the Antichrist.

In Christians, the Holy Spirit influences our thinking and actions. In the Antichrist-beast, the unclean spirit that will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess him, will have a similar (of course opposite) impact on the Antichrist person in his thinking and actions. That unclean spirit will drive him to lead the world in rebellion against God. As Nimrod did at the tower of Babel.

Doug

Thank you for your comments.

By the way, I am preparing to go to a part of Brazil where there will be no internet. So I will not be able to contact you before Monday evening, at the earliest.

Douggg · Feb 8, 2013

Biblewriter said:
It totally escapes me how you can make this out to be the king (of Israel.) This is the one that attacks him.

At the point in time in the seven years when Daniel 11:36-45 takes place, the Antichrist is no longer the King of Israel. The Jews will have dropped him like a hot potato when he goes into the temple and declares that he is God. It is then, they will turn to Jesus and receive him in their hearts as Lord and Savior, for which the Antichrist beast persecutes them for the second half of the seven years.

Daniel 11:36-45 is after the Antichrist has declared that he is God, above every god. He will be in his Antichrist-beast stage at the time of Daniel 11:36.

Again, here are the four stages of his career, as he progresses from unknown to being cast into the lake of fire.

1. little horn, emerges out of the ten king kingdom
2. Prince who shall come, perceived false King of Israel messiah
3. Man of Sin, son of perdition - revealed by going into the temple declaring that he is God. Jews will drop him as their King of Israel messiah like a hot potato.
4. Antichrist beast - says he is greater than all gods, is worshiped. Revelation 11:36, he makes that claim. At the end of the 7 years, in Daniel 40-45, he and his ten king support group of nations making up the end times Roman Empire, the west, is attacked from the three other blocks of countries - from the North, South, East.

Doug

ebedmelech · Feb 8, 2013

Douggg said:
So you think Christians are going to be the maid and servant captives to the Jews? The strangers (Gentile Christians in your view) become the servants and handmaids.
[/color][/color]
Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

No. you have to follow the passage. You use the KJV. Do the research on the words by word study.

Young's Literal Translation does a much better job on this passage:

Because Jehovah loveth Jacob, And hath fixed again on Israel, And given them rest on their own land, And joined hath been the sojourner to them, And they have been admitted to the house of Jacob.
2 And peoples have taken them, And have brought them in unto their place, And the house of Israel have inherited them, On the land of Jehovah, For men-servants and for maid-servants, And they have been captors of their captors, And have ruled over their exactors.

So does the Complete Jewish Bible:

For Adonai will have compassion on Ya‘akov — he will once again choose Isra’el and resettle them in their own land, where foreigners will join them, attaching themselves to the house of Ya‘akov.
2 Peoples will take and escort them to their homeland, and the house of Isra’el will possess them in the land of Adonai as male and female slaves. They will take their captors captive and rule over their oppressors.

14:2 is making the point that Israel is in it's homeland and the house of Israel, the scene goes spiritual now..."the land of YHWH (Adonai)" is heaven Doug. It speaks to Christ taking captivity captive...we become his servants.

Isaiah 14:3 shifts back to Israel coming out of Babylon.

Interplanner · Feb 8, 2013

re "cleave" to "oppressors"
Is 14 1-2 has a logical dilemma. To cleave is as intimate as marriage. Why would people come to Israel and cleave to it to be oppressed?

--Inter

Douggg · Feb 9, 2013

Biblewriter said:
It seems that you did not understand me. I said that the beast of Revelation 13:1 is the Roman ruler, and that seems to also be what you are saying.

I agree that the person in Revelation 13:1 is the leader of the end times Roman Empire. That person is also, in my scenario, the King of Babylon, both formerly (as the beast in the bottomless pit), and of the end times for that last 42 months as the leader of the world in rebellion against God.

I am also saying the first beast, is the result of...

that person (a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudians) as having become the leader of the end times Julio-Caludian Roman Empire before the seven years begin (as the seventh king of Revelation 17:10);
then becoming the false King of Israel messiah;(embraced by the Jews)
then selling out to Satan as the man of sin (rejected by the Jews);
then killed, and come back to life (possessed by the unclean beast spirit from the bottomless pit)....making him the person first beast (you are labeling the "Roman Leader") as the eighth king of the Julio-Claudian Roman Empire (the Roman Empire being the fourth beast empire). He is the king in Daniel 11:36, who claims to be greater than every god.

Please note that in your scenario, you have the 2nd beast as the false King of Israel messiah.... yet you have gone to lengths to say the king of Daniel 11:36 as being a Jew. (I agree that the king in Daniel 11:36 is a Jew).

I am thinking I may not be understanding your scenario correctly. Are you saying the King in Daniel 11:36 is the false prophet 2nd beast of Revelation 13?

I don't see the King in Daniel 11:36 as the false prophet, but as the Antichrist-beast who has already gone through three stages of his career...
Just as Adolph Hitler just didn't popup as the Fuehrer of the Third Reich. He went through stages before he got to that point.

I am putting milestones on the Antichrist's career, and fitting those milestones into the 7 year timeline of events. You do not seem to be doing that. And in observation of your scenario, I don't think there is enough information on the false prophet 2nd beast in Revelation 13... to see any kind of progression for him becoming the false King of Israel messiah.

Doug

Raged64 · Feb 18, 2019

Douggg said:
Who is it in Isaiah 14:20, likened unto an abominable branch, who has destroyed his land and slain his people?

James (Biblewriter), in the other thread, you wrote in regards to that question...

Well, the person will be cast out of the grave...

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Which of the two beasts in Revelation 13, has the mortally wounded head to death that was healed? First or second beast? Answer: first beast of course.

So here is what I think...

The person in question in Isaiah 14:20, destroys his and slays his people - he betrays them. I believe this person is the Antichrist, the first beast, as the mortally wounded head.

Which I believe is the Antichrist, who in the middle of the week, sells out to Satan, to follow him, which as a Jew brings God's ultimate disdain for the individual.

Selling out to Satan, and possessed by Satan at that time, the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits on the throne of God, showing that he is God. For that act God has him killed, Ezekiel 28:1-10, code naming him the prince of Tyre. Satan in the second part of Ezekiel 28 is code named the King of tyre.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

The above verse corresponds to the 2thess2:4 verse regarding the man of sin, son of perdition (the title Judas - a Jew - was given as Satan entered him to do a like deed of betrayal)

2Thessalonians2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

So we have Ezekiel 28:2 corresponding to 2Thessalonians2:3-4. In Ezekiel 28, we read God's response for the person's claiming to be God.

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

So God has him killed. Not only does God have him killed, but he is killed with disgrace.... he will be a Jew. His death will be like that coming to the uncircumcised.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

Now on to Isaiah 14, the person finds himself in hell to the sides of the pit... Keep in mind, that Satan will have possessed the person, when he commits the act of sitting in the temple of God, claiming to be God, for which, God has the person killed.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

"Is this the man" So it is talking now about the person that God has killed and now finds himself in hell.

Then in verse 19 and 20 of Isaiah 14, God shows his disdain for the person.... and doesn't let him stay dead even in hell....

Isaiah 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

The person has sold out to Satan, destroying his land and slaying his people, betraying them and the covenant that God made with them.... he is a Jew.

So we get back to Revelation 13, the first beast is the one with the mortally wounded head unto death, but was healed.... that is the person who committed the act of sitting in the temple claiming to be God, was killed for it, ends up in hell, and is kicked out of the grave..... coming back as the beast - the Antichrist in the fourth and final stage of his career.

Doug

Doug,
It is Robert, (Raged64). I have been searching through old threads on eschatological matters that are of interest to me. I came across this thread entry of yours from several years back. I wanted to ask your thoughts on the matter of Satan indwelling the antichrist. The two witnesses, Rev. 11, are killed by the beast which comes up from the abyss, presumably the antichrist who is indwelt by Satan. Rev. chapter 9 says that the abyss (bottomless pit) was locked and is opened at the 5th trumpet. It would stand to reason that the beast coming up out of the abyss that kills the witnesses is only on the scene after the 5th trumpet. I guess what I am asking is this: Is your view of the trumpets as first half or second half judgments? Is the entity that kills the witnesses the possessed antichrist?
I have always thought of the great tribulation starting "in the midst" of the week at the first trumpet and ending when Christ's kingdom begins at the 7th trumpet. I would greatly appreciate any insight you would share.
Thanks

Douggg · Feb 19, 2019

Raged64 said:
It is Robert, (Raged64). I have been searching through old threads on eschatological matters that are of interest to me. I came across this thread entry of yours from several years back. I wanted to ask your thoughts on the matter of Satan indwelling the antichrist.

Hi Robert, this thread goes back to 2013. I want to make note that I have made some very important changes in terminology, since then. It has taken about 50 years of pursuing bible end times prophecy for to arrive at this point.

In my posts in this 2013 thread, I referred to the person as the Antichrist (in stages of his career). Since then, in recent years, I don't refer to the person broadly as the Antichrist, but "the arch villain of the end time". And instead of saying stages of his career - such as Antichrist-beast stage, I now say roles.

The reason for my change? It is because the person is the Antichrist only for the time he is acting as the anointed King of Israel, ("Anti") instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel. At other times, he is the King of the Roman Empire.

King of Israel and King of the Roman Empire are two completely different concepts. As the little horn and then later as the beast, the person is the King of the Roman Empire.

Most of what is in Revelation is about the person in the role of being the King of the Roman Empire.
__________________________________________________________________

Furthermore, to get to your topic, I have to explain more about the "roles" of the arch villain of the end times. Especially, we need to focus on the transitional roles - that is, from going from being the King of the Roman Empire to becoming the King of Israel, the Antichrist, and back again, no longer the King of Israel.

The roles are in sequence, and this forms the backbone for the timeline of events forthcoming.... everything we talk about at this site is going to be according to these roles and sequence. The path to his destruction.

1. He starts as the little horn, King of the Roman empire endtimes, Daniel 7,8.

2. prince who shall come, Daniel 9:26-27, this is the entry transitional role to becoming the Antichrist, the King of Israel. There is a reason for this being a transitional role, and it has to do with what the Jews believe the messiah will do, highlighted by their sage, the Rambam. I can explain later if you want. On my chart the role is on the sloped arrow going to the left.

3. the Antichrist, 1John2:18, antichrist shall come, the person will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet, most likely claiming to be Elijah (there is a reason for that). The person is in that role for about three years.

4. the revealed man of sin, 2Thessalonians2:4, this is the exit transitional role from being the Antichrist, the King of Israel no more. The focus back to being the King of the Roman empire. On my chart it is on the sloped arrow going to the right.

5. the beast, Revelation 13, this is the final role of the person, for 42 months (unimpeded by the two witnesses who will be gone) until he meets his demise when Jesus returns.

Here is my chart....

PATH OF "THE ARCH VILLAIN OF THE END TIMES" (that's what we need to call him, instead of universally the Antichrist, which is actually an big error to do so).

Douggg · Feb 19, 2019

Raged64 said:
The two witnesses, Rev. 11, are killed by the beast which comes up from the abyss, presumably the antichrist who is indwelt by Satan.

The person is not the Antichrist (King of Israel) at the time in Revelation 11, but the King of the Roman Empire end times. Basically the EU in it final form. May not be called the EU.

On my chart, one of the transitional roles is "the revealed man of sin".

In 2Thessalonians2:3-4 the person is also called the son of perdition. This is our hint that like Judas, also called the son of perdition because Satan entered him to carry out the act of betrayal of Jesus - that the person will temporarily be entered into by Satan, to carry out a similar act of betrayal.

The person, acting as the King of Israel, will totally unexpectedly go into the temple, sit, claim to have achieved God-hood. (God later has him killed for the act in Ezekiel 28:1-10. ...Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: )

The act by the person, indwelt by Satan to carry out, will be betrayal to the Jewish people, Israel, and the covenant he had confirmed earlier to begin the 7 years. As a result, they will disclaim him as their King of Israel, ending his time in the role of being the Antichrist. He now moves on to becoming the beast.

He ends up being killed and finds his soul in hell in Isaiah 14, mocked. Satan there with him, likely, because of what it says in the earlier verses of Isaiah 14.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, there was a great gulf separating the two. That great gulf is likely the bottomless pit. Where the disembodied spirit of the "beast" now is.

God, in disdain for the person, doesn't let him stay there and brings his soul out of hell. Satan ejected as well, to go his separate direction. It is at that time, the unclean spirit of the beast (the ancient person) is allowed to come out of the pit and possess the person's soul, making the person the beast - his final role before meeting his eternal demise.

The person will probably only be dead for a few days or week, as the world views his lifeless body in a casket. When he suddenly sits up, appearing to have overcome death.
This will be the reason the world will believe his earlier claim of having achieved God-hood.

Satan will not incarnate the person any longer, proofed by the fact that the beast is cast alive in the lake of fire. While, differently, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, before being released for a short time.

Douggg · Feb 19, 2019

Raged64 said:
Rev. chapter 9 says that the abyss (bottomless pit) was locked and is opened at the 5th trumpet. It would stand to reason that the beast coming up out of the abyss that kills the witnesses is only on the scene after the 5th trumpet. I guess what I am asking is this: Is your view of the trumpets as first half or second half judgments? Is the entity that kills the witnesses the possessed antichrist?

The first four trumpets sound in sequence. The last three trumpets, the woes, do not follow that groups' sequence.

Here's the reason why. The flesh tormenting locust of the 5th trumpet are told not to hurt any green grass, or tree, or anything green.

The first trumpet "....and all green grass was burnt up."

So the opening of the bottomless pit, by Satan, the falling star given the key, the 5th trumpet has to happen before the first trumpet event when all the green grass is burnt up.

What it boils down to is we need to look at the information given in the trumpets to see where they fall on a timeline of events.

Even the number of the woes, 1,2,3 themselves do not indicate where the woe events take place on the timeline. We have to look at the information given in each woe.

The third woe is Satan being cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:12....Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. ) , apparently tossed the key to the bottomless pit to release every unclean spirit and angel there.

Which the third woe would just precede the first woe in actuality.

Satan cast down to earth.
As the falling star in first woe
releasing the locust, told not to hurt the green grass
before the first trumpet when all the green grass is destroyed.

Mark51 · Mar 2, 2019

In the ancient world, it was considered a disgrace for a royal king to be deprived of an honorable burial. It would be a humiliation if such kings were buried in unmarked graves-forgotten forever-like a lower ranking soldier that were killed in battle.

Isaiah 14:20 possibly may be referring to Nebuchadnezzar, if not it is certainly referring to the future kings of his dynasty. Compare 14:12; 18, 19.

Douggg · Mar 2, 2019

Mark51 said:
In the ancient world, it was considered a disgrace for a royal king to be deprived of an honorable burial. It would be a humiliation if such kings were buried in unmarked graves-forgotten forever-like a lower ranking soldier that were killed in battle.

Isaiah 14:20 possibly may be referring to Nebuchadnezzar, if not it is certainly referring to the future kings of his dynasty. Compare 14:12; 18, 19.

I would not say that there is any chance of it referring to Nebuchadnezzar, because the person is likened to an abominable branch, and is not allowed to rest because he destroys his land and his people.

In the earlier verses in Isaiah 14, could be a reference to Satan. Satan will temporarily enter into the person to carry out the act of betrayal (the person is called the son of perdition like Judas was) in 2Thessalonians2:4.

So when the revealed man of sin is killed, Satan may find himself in hell along with the revealed man of sin for awhile.

shilohsfoal · Mar 2, 2019

The nation state of Israel once existed and then did not.It appeared to have put to death .
Yet it appwared once once more after nearly 2000 years.
The world was astonished.

Today the israeli goverment has a millitary strategy called the samson option.The idea is ifghe country is invaded and appears to be lost you bring down the house upon everyone including yourself.
Im sure this would include its land and its own people.

Samson Option - Wikipedia

Douggg · Mar 3, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
The nation state of Israel once existed and then did not.It appeared to have put to death .
Yet it appwared once once more after nearly 2000 years.
The world was astonished.

The world does not worship Israel though, Revelation 13:4. So that interpretation is flawed.

shilohsfoal · Mar 3, 2019

Israel is a country of imigrants who have traveled the world over to live in that nation and and be governed by thier chosen king.Theycame from many peoples,tongues and nations.
You believe people dont worship it?Why did they follow after it from all over the world?

Israel is the only goverment iknow with a miliatary option to destroy itself.To destroy its own land and its own,people.

Isaiah 14:20 You will not join them in burial, since you have destroyed your land and slaughtered your own people. The offspring of the wicked will never again be mentioned.

Can you name any other country on earth that has the samson option?

Even better,can you tell me the name of the enemy of all Gazans?
Who smites Gaza?

Isaiah 14:29 Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, that the rod that struck you is broken. For a viper will spring from the serpent's root, and a flying serpent from its egg.

Isaiah 14:20 Who is the person?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

My dog Micah in the pic

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

My dog Micah in the pic

Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Jacks or better to open

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Jacks or better to open

Similar threads