Where is Jesus?

Residential Bob

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I guess I deserved that.

God doesn't have an Option A and an Option B for understanding his Word. So, just one of us is right. The thing is that nobody arrives at the truth by being snarky with one another.

For that, I apologize for starting the snark.
Ditto.

That aside, do you see what the apostles actually said to their contemporaries? Examples:

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son; (Heb 1:1-2)​

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away; (Heb 8:13)​

You have laid up treasure in the last days; (Jas 5:3)​

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; (1 Pt 1:20)​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; (1 Pt 4:17)​

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1 Jn 2:18)
These last days; is becoming obsolete and old; have laid up; was made manifest; it is time; it is the last hour. These expressions are in the present and past tenses.

Jesus said to his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned (Mt 16:28). Again, this is clearly a first-century reference.

Many of the eschatological passages of the New Testament are in the future tense, obviously written before the end of the age in 70 AD. Futurists fixate on these passages and apply them to their own generations. This is not hermeneutics; it's wishful thinking.
 
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Residential Bob

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He came in judgment in 70AD. He also said "This generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled. " He also said "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
So it may be that He fulfilled His second coming in judgment against Jerusalem and He will come back in glory on the last day.
He returns twice? Is that in the Bible?
 
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Residential Bob

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Jesus will return three days and a half after his two witnesses die.
You suggest that the two witnesses are two individuals.

The Bible suggests otherwise, that they're two assemblies.
 
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AllDayFaith

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By biblical accounts, Jesus should have come by now.

We as believers have to be patient and wait on God's time. He wants to give every person a chance to turn from their ways and follow Him. God has not finished His great work and you saying it should have happened shows impatience.
 
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_Dave_

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Ditto.

That aside, do you see what the apostles actually said to their contemporaries? Examples:

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son; (Heb 1:1-2)​

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away; (Heb 8:13)​

You have laid up treasure in the last days; (Jas 5:3)​

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; (1 Pt 1:20)​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; (1 Pt 4:17)​

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1 Jn 2:18)
These last days; is becoming obsolete and old; have laid up; was made manifest; it is time; it is the last hour. These expressions are in the present and past tenses.

Jesus said to his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned (Mt 16:28). Again, this is clearly a first-century reference.

Many of the eschatological passages of the New Testament are in the future tense, obviously written before the end of the age in 70 AD. Futurists fixate on these passages and apply them to their own generations. This is not hermeneutics; it's wishful thinking.
Bob, we are miles apart in the way that we interpret Scripture. Let's leave it at that, and agree to disagree.
 
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DamianWarS

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Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Mt 24:14). In the first century, the Gospel was preached in all the nations (Rm 1:8; 16:26; Col 1:6, 23).
"nations" in greek is "ethnos", this word is not talking about political boundaries but rather people groups. Today there are thousands of unreached and unengaged people groups who have yet to hear the gospel. The end has not come because the gospel is not strong enough in many parts of the world to be sufficient testimony to all people groups.

Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world but withholding the gospel to the "outside world" would actually be inconsistent with the gospel itself.

John 3:16 says "God so loved the word...." what "world" is this? do you think it's "God so loved the Roman world" or do you think this word stretches to all people groups that inhabit even the unknown places of the world? if the latter than it would be consistent to interpret Mt 24:14 in like manner.
 
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Residential Bob

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"nations" in greek is "ethnos", this word is not talking about political boundaries but rather people groups. Today there are thousands of unreached and unengaged people groups who have yet to hear the gospel. The end has not come because the gospel is not strong enough in many parts of the world to be sufficient testimony to all people groups.

Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world but withholding the gospel to the "outside world" would actually be inconsistent with the gospel itself.

John 3:16 says "God so loved the word...." what "world" is this? do you think it's "God so loved the Roman world" or do you think this word stretches to all people groups that inhabit even the unknown places of the world? if the latter than it would be consistent to interpret Mt 24:14 in like manner.
Correct. Jesus and Paul are referencing Palestine and the Levant 2,000 years ago.

The gospel was preached in the world 2,000 years ago.

And so to my mind, the gospel is not weak; it is quite strong enough.
 
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parousia70

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It's pretty obvious, Bob.
"...And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
and
"... until the fullness of the gentiles be come in."
Those prophesies, made almost 2,000 years ago, haven't happened.
.

So you are saying Paul was wrong to claim they have?
 
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parousia70

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All haven't come to repentance.
Nor would they:
Scripture fully and uniformly teaches that some would be faithful and others unfaithful (Romans 2:5-9; Mt 25:1-13; Lk 13:24-30; 1 Cor 3:12-15).

As the angel also plainly states:

Revelation 22:10-11
And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
 
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Maria Billingsley

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He returns twice? Is that in the Bible?
He came in judgment as He said He would. I am sure you are aware of the many circumstances in the OT where God came in judgment. Here is the judgment of Babylon very similar language used for the judgment of Jerusalem.

Isaiah
Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

Mark
“But in those days, following that distress,
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.


It is also good to note that the Lord often came in the clouds in the OT it is a sign
of all power and glory.

Isaiah
“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.



 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Residential Bob said:
Quoting a prophecy doesn't make it unfulfilled.

What makes this prophecy unfulfilled?
All haven't come to repentance.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Yes.
Parousia, wouldn't that be a great new name for the city of Paris? Half kidding. :D
As long as they didn't know what it meant :p
He came in judgment as He said He would. I am sure you are aware of the many circumstances in the OT where God came in judgment. Here is the judgment of Babylon very similar language used for the judgment of Jerusalem.
It is also good to note that the Lord often came in the clouds in the OT it is a sign
of all power and glory.
Isaiah
“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
I believe we can use the example of what happened to the Jews in 70 when they were given 40 yrs to repent from the time Jesus started preaching.

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Mark 1:15
And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared the Kingdom of the GOD.
Be ye reforming/repenting<3340>! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
Mat 12:34
“Brood of vipers
! How can you, being evil, speak good things?
For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers
!
How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?

Luke 21:23

“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong<2729> to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man. [Daniel 12:1]

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

Romans 2:
23 Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring
24 'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the nations' because of ye' according as it has been written
[Psalm 74:10 Revelation 16:11]

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye Murder<5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they repent/reform<3340> out of their Murders<5408>, nor out from their sorceries,...........
Revelation 16:11 [Romans 2:23-24]
And they blaspheme the GOD of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
And not they repent/reform<3340>out of the works of them.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


302660_c2760f5cc7d57e7088338ce451af705b.jpg


...................................
 
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parousia70

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Don't you think it's a little bizarre that if the return of Christ took place in AD 70, that the early church fathers didn't mention it?

I guess you missed what these guys said then?:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

There are also writings from the likes of Polycarp, Ignatius, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr etc., who all speak of the return of Christ in a future tense. These were all well known and respected Christian believers, alive at the very time preterists teach Jesus returned in judgement, and yet none of these faithful brothers, some who were even martyred for the faith, acknowledge what preterism teaches to be true.

It is misguided to claim the "entire early church missed it, nor acknowledged preterist truth"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is passed, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, (In fact, if you take all of the ECF's different preteristic beliefs and cobbled them together as one, you basically arrive at the Full preterist position) and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Call me skeptical, but I think that I for one will stand on the testimony of those guys, rather than listen to the concoctions of a few guys with too much time on their hands, writing about 1500 years or so after the event.

That's an erroneous statement. It is the apostles that placed the fulfillment of most or all of Matthew 24 in their generation (Matt 24:34/23:36), and they consistently spoke of the fall of Jerusalem as the imminent day of judgment of their times (Lk 21:22, Mt 23:33-24:34; Mt 21:40-45; Lk 19:40-44). This was the desolation of which it was said: "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Pet 4:7); "in a very short while he who is coming will come an will not delay" (Heb 10:37); "the time is short" (1 Cor 7:29); "there are now many antichrists by which we know it is the final hour" (1 Jn 2:18-19); "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show...the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand" (Rev 1:1,3); "the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door (Jas 5:8-9); "salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near" (Rom 13:11-12); "this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt 24:34).

It was the biblically-and-historically illiterate Irvingites and Darbyites of the early 1800s that created the fanciful and superstitous eschatology popularized in the Left Behind series--including the infamous "pre-trib Rapture" mythology.

Your #1 reason for rejecting the preterist view on the TIMING of the return of Christ appears to be your desire to "stand on the testimony of fallible church tradition."

In Contrast, I stand upon infallible Holy Scripture, and Apostolic testimony as to the timing of the return of Christ, and that means the first-century.

(And yes, the Irony of a Catholic admonishing a Protestant to "stick to scripture over Church tradition" is not lost on me)
 
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Residential Bob

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He came in judgment as He said He would. I am sure you are aware of the many circumstances in the OT where God came in judgment. Here is the judgment of Babylon very similar language used for the judgment of Jerusalem.

Isaiah
Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

Mark
“But in those days, following that distress,
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.


It is also good to note that the Lord often came in the clouds in the OT it is a sign
of all power and glory.

Isaiah
“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Yes, I'm aware of God's presence in the clouds.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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He came in judgment as He said He would. I am sure you are aware of the many circumstances in the OT where God came in judgment. Here is the judgment of Babylon very similar language used for the judgment of Jerusalem.
It is also good to note that the Lord often came in the clouds in the OT it is a sign
of all power and glory.
Isaiah
“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Yes, I'm aware of God's presence in the clouds.
Hell R B.
How much of the Olivet Discourse do you believe is fulfilled in Revelation? [I believe at least most of both are fulfilled, but now all.]

Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse is my favorite Gospel to use with Revelation

Matt 24 and Mark 13 use "clouds" and Luke 21 uses "cloud"

Luke 21:27
And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and glory, much. [Revelation 14:14]

Acts 1:9
And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes

Revelation 14:14
And I saw and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and a sharp sickle in His hands. [Luke 21:27]

I am of the view these 2 witnesses might be the 144,000 from Judah and Israel, because of Hebrews 12 which proclaims a "vast cloud of witnesses". Lot of Hebrew OT symbology. Thoughts?

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them the enemies of them [Acts 1:9]

Hebrews 12:1
For the also we so vast a cloud of witnesses, having encompassing to us, impediment putting off every also the well standing sin thru endurance we may be racing the lying before us contest.

Peter and Jude also refer to clouds as people......

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds
carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Jude 1:12
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[fn] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
 
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Residential Bob

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Hell R B.
How much of the Olivet Discourse do you believe is fulfilled in Revelation? [I believe at least most of both are fulfilled, but now all.]

Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse is my favorite Gospel to use with Revelation

Matt 24 and Mark 13 use "clouds" and Luke 21 uses "cloud"

Luke 21:27
And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and glory, much. [Revelation 14:14]

Acts 1:9
And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes

Revelation 14:14
And I saw and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and a sharp sickle in His hands. [Luke 21:27]

I am of the view these 2 witnesses might be the 144,000 from Judah and Israel, because of Hebrews 12 which proclaims a "vast cloud of witnesses". Lot of Hebrew OT symbology. Thoughts?

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them the enemies of them [Acts 1:9]

Hebrews 12:1
For the also we so vast a cloud of witnesses, having encompassing to us, impediment putting off every also the well standing sin thru endurance we may be racing the lying before us contest.

Peter and Jude also refer to clouds as people......

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds
carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Jude 1:12
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[fn] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
All of it.
 
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parousia70

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Concerning the Parousia, the Lord says no one knows the day or hour, because He comes at a time when we do not expect, like a thief in the night.

Yet In the Revelation, we see the Glorified Jesus, From Heaven, promising His Thief's coming would befall the real first-century peoples of Sardis:

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Was He merely issuing Empty Threats to them?
 
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juvenissun

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By biblical accounts, Jesus should have come by now.

Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Mt 24:14). In the first century, the Gospel was preached in all the nations (Rm 1:8; 16:26; Col 1:6, 23).

Jesus said that abounding lawlessness is another sign of the imminence of the end (Mt 24:12). In the first century, even before the end of the age, the mystery of lawlessness was already at work (2 Thes 2:7).

Israelites were anxious for Elijah’s return, for that was another sign of the end of the age (Mal 4:5-6). In the first century, Elijah returned (Mt 17:12).

Jesus said he would raise up a new temple within days of the current temple’s destruction (Jn 2:19). In the first century, the new temple was being raised (1 Pt 2:5).

Jesus said many false prophets would lead many astray (Mt 24:11). The New Testament canon is replete with such occurrences in the first century, such as Acts 5:36-37.

In the first century, prophecy seems to have been fulfilled. So where’s Jesus?

In Revelations, John was told: the number of human in the Heaven is NOT enough. That is why Jesus has not come yet.
All your quotes WILL BE satisfied in a short future. Be patient.
 
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Residential Bob

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In Revelations, John was told: the number of human in the Heaven is NOT enough. That is why Jesus has not come yet.
All your quotes WILL BE satisfied in a short future. Be patient.
How many Revelations are you talking about?
 
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