the dispensationalism of Irenaeus

Just The Facts

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Hello Bible

First let me say there are no errors just your refusal to see the truth because it doesnt fit your pretrib view of prophecy.

But it does have to do with the thread subject. I was demonstrating how you twist what is written to fit your doctrine just as you are twisting what Iranaeus states. You are making assumptions and not good ones at that.

In Book 5 34 He clearly states that Ezekiel 37 is the first resurrection he does not say it is some future gathering of the Jews back to the holy land.

There are so many example like this that clearly show he did not believe what youare claiming he believed.
 
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jgr

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Actually, I quoted that very passage in my book, stating that Irenaeus placed the rapture (although he did not call it that, after the rise of the Antichrist, and before he began his three and a half year "reign of terror." That made his stand what would today be called a "mid trib rapture." But as he only foresaw a three and a half year "great tribulation," his timing was pre-trib from his viewpoint.

It can't be considered pretrib from his or any other viewpoint, when it occurs after the tribulation has begun.

Which it does.
 
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Biblewriter

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It can't be considered pretrib from his or any other viewpoint, when it occurs after the tribulation has begun.

Which it does.
Ummm... what did he actually say? When... here shall be great tribulation. You are imposing your definitions upon what he said, instead of examining what he said.
 
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jgr

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Ummm... what did he actually say? When... here shall be great tribulation. You are imposing your definitions upon what he said, instead of examining what he said.

Where did he so say?
 
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jgr

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typo. "When the church is suddenly caught up... there shall be great tribulation." is the quotation we have been discussing.

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Book V Chapter 29

This is consistent with Chapter 34. The righteous endure the tribulation, and overcome.

There is no pretrib rapture.
 
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Biblewriter

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"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Book V Chapter 29

This is consistent with Chapter 34. The righteous endure the tribulation, and overcome.

There is no pretrib rapture.
It is standard pretrib doctrine to differentiate between "the church," which by that they mean believers of the present time, and "the righteous," by which they mean believers of a different time.

You might imagine that this is only projecting modern doctrine upon Irenaeus. But he differentiated between these two groups by changing his pronouns in the development of his scenario.

He placed "the resurrection," which, according to scriptute, takes place at the same time as when the church is "suddenly caught up," as after the Antichrist appeared on the scene and "put the church to flight," and before he began his "three and a half year reign of terror."

As i said earlier, this made him a mid tribber, according to modern terminology, but from his viewpoint this was pre-trib. for he only foresaw the "great tribulation" as lasting half a week.

Try, for once, just reading all the way through his twelve chapters on the subject at one sitting, instead of just doing a computer search for particular words, and you will clearly see that he indeed changed his pronouns at this point in the development of his foresees scenario.
 
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jgr

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As i said earlier, this made him a mid tribber, according to modern terminology, but from his viewpoint this was pre-trib. for he only foresaw the "great tribulation" as lasting half a week.

"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem..."

Book V Chapter 30

The "tribulation" (the word does not appear in this chapter) begins prior ("shall have devastated") to the reign. Irenaeus does not disclose the total length of the "tribulation" period, but it is demonstrably longer than 3.5 years.
 
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Biblewriter

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Brother JGR just proved that this is what you are intentionally doing in post #78 above.


.
No, JGR alleged that I was doing that. He did not "prove" it. And that is exactly why I pointed out that he was doing the same thing he had accused me of doing.
 
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BABerean2

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No, JGR alleged that I was doing that. He did not "prove" it. And that is exactly why I pointed out that he was doing the same thing he had accused me of doing.

Any unbiased witness here can look at the part of the text which you quoted, and the more complete text which jgr quoted, and see the truth.

Pretrib author Grant Jeffrey also selectively quoted the writings of the ECF, to make your doctrine work.
It is a common practice of many Dispensationalists.


Pretribulationist Revisionism

(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
 
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jgr

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No, JGR alleged that I was doing that. He did not "prove" it. And that is exactly why I pointed out that he was doing the same thing he had accused me of doing.

I've alleged nothing and accused nothing. I've simply quoted the various text excerpts verbatim, and interpreted them with what I've considered to be reasonability and objectivity.

We disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

Our readers can weigh the evidence and decide.
 
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shagsnacks

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It is standard pretrib doctrine to differentiate between "the church," which by that they mean believers of the present time, and "the righteous," by which they mean believers of a different time.

You might imagine that this is only projecting modern doctrine upon Irenaeus. But he differentiated between these two groups by changing his pronouns in the development of his scenario.

He placed "the resurrection," which, according to scriptute, takes place at the same time as when the church is "suddenly caught up," as after the Antichrist appeared on the scene and "put the church to flight," and before he began his "three and a half year reign of terror."

As i said earlier, this made him a mid tribber, according to modern terminology, but from his viewpoint this was pre-trib. for he only foresaw the "great tribulation" as lasting half a week.

Try, for once, just reading all the way through his twelve chapters on the subject at one sitting, instead of just doing a computer search for particular words, and you will clearly see that he indeed changed his pronouns at this point in the development of his foresees scenario.


One thing I wanted to add (for those who come across this post) that the earliest English Bible (Wycliffe) made clear there is no separation between the 2nd coming and the rapture.

2Th 2:1 But, britheren, we preien you bi the comyng of oure Lord Jhesu Crist, and of oure congregacioun in to the same comyng,
 
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Biblewriter

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One thing I wanted to add (for those who come across this post) that the earliest English Bible (Wycliffe) made clear there is no separation between the 2nd coming and the rapture.

2Th 2:1 But, britheren, we preien you bi the comyng of oure Lord Jhesu Crist, and of oure congregacioun in to the same comyng,
This interpretation, (for it is not a translation of this verse) lacks support in any known Greek text.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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One thing I wanted to add (for those who come across this post) that the earliest English Bible (Wycliffe) made clear there is no separation between the 2nd coming and the rapture.

2Th 2:1
But, britheren, we preien you bi the comyng of oure Lord Jhesu Crist, and of oure congregacioun in to the same comyng,
Interesting translation.
The greek word used for "coming/presence" is G3952 which is transliterated as "parousia".

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of Thy parousiaV<3952>, and of the full end of the age?'

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times.
Matthew 24:3;
Philippians 1:26;
2 Thessalonians 2:1,8;
James 5:7
2 Peter 3:4

2 Thessalonians 2:1
And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the parousiaV<3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto Him,

Everything you wanted to know about Dispensationalism but were afraid to ask....and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.

So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema
By GOL | Dispensationalism

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
=====================

Isa 22:1
Here is a message about the Valley of Vision:
What is the reason that all of you go up to the rooftops?
Eze 33:27
“Say thus to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
As I live, surely those who are in the ruins shall fall by the sword,
and the one who is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured,
and those who are in the strongholds and caves shall die of the pestilence.

Mat 24:
7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
40 “Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Luke 21:11
“And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences;
and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

Luk 17:
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house,
let him not come down to take them away.
And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
36 “Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[fn]

...................................
302218_491ef000dc991ee2e1020d0eabbf87e7.jpg
 
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shagsnacks

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This interpretation, (for it is not a translation of this verse) lacks support in any known Greek text.

LOL. Well even in the King James Version the Bible makes clear that the rapture happens after the Tribulation.

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

There you go. The rapture happens during the Day of the Lord.
 
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Biblewriter

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LOL. Well even in the King James Version the Bible makes clear that the rapture happens after the Tribulation.

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

There you go. The rapture happens during the Day of the Lord.
The text you quoted does not even imply your conclusion.
 
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shagsnacks

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The text you quoted does not even imply your conclusion.

Of course it does. The day of the Lord happens AFTER the tribulation. We know this because the events that describe the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation.

Consider Isaiah.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Then consider what Jesus said.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Exact same events. So we know that the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation. If the Day of the Lord happens after the Tribulation, the rapture happens after the tribulation, since it happens during the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
 
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Biblewriter

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Of course it does. The day of the Lord happens AFTER the tribulation. We know this because the events that describe the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation.

Consider Isaiah.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Then consider what Jesus said.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Exact same events. So we know that the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation. If the Day of the Lord happens after the Tribulation, the rapture happens after the tribulation, since it happens during the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
You are simply assuming, without an atom of Biblical evidence, that the rapture takes place on “the day of the Lord.”
 
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BABerean2

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You are simply assuming, without an atom of Biblical evidence, that the rapture takes place on “the day of the Lord.”

The verses below prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
(The word "But" connects this verse to the verse before it.)


1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

.
 
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