Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

BABerean2 said:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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JL: I agree whole heartedly with the scriptures you posted they harmonize perfectly with my previous post. You are correct Luke is talking about baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, this was done on Pentecost.

[Acts2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.]

We also see just five verses down from your post of Lk3:16 Jesus is water baptized and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and a voice said thou art my beloved Son. I can’t find my source, but I think some Church fathers believed this is when Christ sanctified the water and instituted Christian baptism.

[Lk3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.]

[Gal3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

[Lk4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,]

BABerean2 said:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, .

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JL: Again you are correct that is exactly what Acts2:37-42 tells us. First the adult hears the Word their heart is pricked they believe, the natural question would be what shall we do? Acts2:37.

Peter said repent, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38.

The Holy Spirit is the promise which is for the adults and their children, Acts2:39.

Peter continued saying save yourselves from this untoward=corrupt generation, Acts2:40.

They that received his word were baptized added to them=One visible Apostolic Fellowship, Acts2:41.

They continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread=mass and prayers, Acts2:42. One doctrine, one fellowship, one worship.

[Acts2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.]

JLHargus said:

The Holy Spirit is the promise which is for the adults and their children, Acts2:39.

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Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Do infants "repent"?

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BABerean2 said:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Do infants "repent"? .

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JL: Infants have no actual sin from which to repent nor have they been born again which brings them into the new covenant family of God.

[Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.]

Infants have only been born of flesh, original sin is a lack of the Holy Spirit indwelling the soul.

[Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.]

Even infants need to be regenerated that is how Christ sanctifies the Church. [Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;]

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,]

In Jn3 & 5 Man=Greek=tis=a certain one.

JLHargus said:

Even infants need to be regenerated.

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The concept of "Baptismal Regeneration of Infants" goes back to Augustine, who disagreed with the views of the Early Church Fathers.

Dr. Kevin Wilson read all of the works of Augustine, in chronological order, for his thesis while at Oxford.

He has also published a book on the topic.

Augustine had to go against the views of the Early Church Fathers, in order to justify getting infants into the Church through baptism.



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BABerean2 said:

The concept of "Baptismal Regeneration of Infants" goes back to Augustine, who disagreed with the views of the Early Church Fathers.

Dr. Kevin Wilson read all of the works of Augustine, in chronological order, for his thesis while at Oxford.

He has also published a book on the topic.

Augustine had to go against the views of the Early Church Fathers, in order to justify getting infants into the Church through baptism.

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I have listened to 15 minutes of the video if you have something specific you want me to see mark the time and I will fast forward to that point. Nothing I have seen so far shows Augustine disagreed with early Church Fathers. Now some fathers may have had different views which is not uncommon. It is the Church who discerns doctrine not individuals or groups of individuals but the Magisterium=teaching authority. That would be the pope and bishops in union with him.

The Church has never taught unbaptized infants go to hell. How they are saved is not revealed.

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.

1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

St. Augustine Versus the Pelagians
Above link Augustine & Pelegius

BABerean2 said:

The concept of "Baptismal Regeneration of Infants" goes back to Augustine, who disagreed with the views of the Early Church Fathers.

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Of course anyone who has actually read the writings of the early fathers can tell you that's patently untrue. Seeing as I've actually read the writings of the ancient fathers, such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, Hippolytus et al I know--first hand--that this statement is false.

"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven,'" - St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 61

"Being thirty years old when He came to be baptized, and then possessing the full age of a Master, He came to Jerusalem, so that He might be properly acknowledged by all as a Master. For He did not seem one thing while He was another, as those affirm who describe Him as being man only in appearance; but what He was, that He also appeared to be. Being a Master, therefore, He also possessed the age of a Master, not despising or evading any condition of humanity, nor setting aside in Himself that law which He had appointed for the human race, but sanctifying every age, by that period corresponding to it which belonged to Himself. For He came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22:4

The fact that the Eastern Church has the same practice as the Western Church, even though Augustine was never important in the theology of the Eastern Church, is itself evidence against the claim; but for the sake of providing actual material evidence the above quotes have been provided anyway--and these are hardly extensive. All that is necessary are two things here:

1) That the Church baptized infants and young children and
2) That the Church understood Baptism to be what Jesus refers to when He speaks of being born of water and the Spirit, i.e. born again, or regenerated.

Both of these are sufficiently available in the writings of the fathers. And they understand this to be nothing short of the practice as they had themselves received it from the apostles, and the truth of these things borne out of the witness of Holy Scripture itself.

-CryptoLutheran

BABerean2 said:

Do infants "repent"?

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If they have been raised in the faith they do, that's why we baptize and raise them up in the faith, that they--like ourselves--share in the life of faith, a life of hearing God's word, a life of repentance, a life found in Christ by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit who makes us alive to God, He which we received when we were baptized and sealed in God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

If they have been raised in the faith they do, that's why we baptize and raise them up in the faith, that they--like ourselves--share in the life of faith, a life of hearing God's word, a life of repentance, a life found in Christ by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit who makes us alive to God, He which we received when we were baptized and sealed in God.

-CryptoLutheran

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Do you believe all babies "baptised" into the Church later come to faith in Christ?

Do any of them become atheists?

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ViaCrucis said:

"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.

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Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.

Does the water come after they are regenerated, in the passage above?

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BABerean2 said:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

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Correct, we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit in Christ, that is part of the Gospel promise given to us.

"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.

Does the water come after they are regenerated, in the passage above?
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No, the water doesn't come after; it is present in their regeneration. They are brought to where there is water, and are regenerated: the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is pronounced and they receive the washing of water--this combination of speaking the three-fold name of God and washing in water is the Christian practice of administering baptism. Baptism isn't water only, but water connected to God's word. Without the word it's not baptism. Which is why St. Paul says that Christ has cleansed His Church by the washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26), it is not mere water, but water with the word that makes this Baptism, and thus by which we have been cleansed of all unrighteousness on Christ's account--for He has accomplished all things for us already by His all-sufficient work, His life, death, and resurrection--as pure grace, God's unmerited and precious gift.

-CryptoLutheran

BABerean2 said:

Do you believe all babies "baptised" into the Church later come to faith in Christ?

Do any of them become atheists?

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The Scriptures are replete with warnings against the shipwrecking of our faith. So, yes, sometimes people fall away from the faith. Whether they came to faith as infants or as adults it doesn't matter, for the field is filled with workers, some came at the first hour, and some at the last hour and all receive the same wages. Whether one came in the first hour and walked away later, or if someone came at a later hour and then walked away--both have walked away; even so those who came in the first hour and those who came in the last hour, and who are still in the field, have received the same promise from the master of the vineyard.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

No, the water doesn't come after; it is present in their regeneration. They are brought to where there is water, and are regenerated: the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is pronounced and they receive the washing of water--this combination of speaking the three-fold name of God and washing in water is the Christian practice of administering baptism.

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Can you show us the water in the verse below?


Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


When did the Spirit come in the passage below?
When did the water come in the passage below?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
Act 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—
Act 10:37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
Act 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

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BABerean2 said:

Can you show us the water in the verse below?


Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

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Is there a reason why it should explicitly mention water?

Perhaps you could be more forthcoming in exactly why you keep bringing this passage up and why you seem to think it says anything contrary to what I've said so far.

Because I read this passage and it seems to mean exactly what it says.

That having heard and trusted in the holy Gospel we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Is that not what you think it means?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

That having heard and trusted in the holy Gospel we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Is that not what you think it means?

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If Ephesians 1:13 is the process of salvation, why would you baptize a baby?

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BABerean2 said:

If Ephesians 1:13 is the process of salvation, why would you baptize a baby?

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Where do you read in Ephesians 1:13 a "process of salvation"?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Where do you read in Ephesians 1:13 a "process of salvation"?

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It is found in the same place where we find babies being baptized in the New Testament...

Ephesians 1:13

(CJB) Furthermore, you who heard the message of the truth, the Good News offering you deliverance, and put your trust in the Messiah were sealed by him with the promised Ruach HaKodesh,

(ESV) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

(Geneva) In whom also ye haue trusted, after that ye heard the worde of trueth, euen the Gospel of your saluation, wherein also after that ye beleeued, ye were sealed with the holy Spirite of promes,

(Greek NT TR) εν ω και υμεις ακουσαντες τον λογον της αληθειας το ευαγγελιον της σωτηριας υμων εν ω και πιστευσαντες εσφραγισθητε τω πνευματι της επαγγελιας τω αγιω

(GW) You heard and believed the message of truth, the Good News that he has saved you. In him you were sealed with the Holy Spirit whom he promised.

(LITV-TSP) in whom also you, hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

(KJV+) InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860

(NKJV) In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(YLT) in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

You can call it steps, or a process, or whatever else you want to use as a label.

However, nobody has been "born-again" of the Spirit of God without going through what is found in the text of the verse above.


Have you heard, and then believed, and then been sealed with the Holy Spirit?

BABerean2 said:

It is found in the same place where we find babies being baptized in the New Testament...

Ephesians 1:13

(CJB) Furthermore, you who heard the message of the truth, the Good News offering you deliverance, and put your trust in the Messiah were sealed by him with the promised Ruach HaKodesh,

(ESV) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

(Geneva) In whom also ye haue trusted, after that ye heard the worde of trueth, euen the Gospel of your saluation, wherein also after that ye beleeued, ye were sealed with the holy Spirite of promes,

(Greek NT TR) εν ω και υμεις ακουσαντες τον λογον της αληθειας το ευαγγελιον της σωτηριας υμων εν ω και πιστευσαντες εσφραγισθητε τω πνευματι της επαγγελιας τω αγιω

(GW) You heard and believed the message of truth, the Good News that he has saved you. In him you were sealed with the Holy Spirit whom he promised.

(LITV-TSP) in whom also you, hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

(KJV+) InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860

(NKJV) In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(YLT) in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

You can call it steps, or a process, or whatever else you want to use as a label.

However, nobody has been "born-again" of the Spirit of God without going through what is found in the text of the verse above.


Have you heard, and then believed, and then been sealed with the Holy Spirit?

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I wouldn't call it steps or a process. I'd call it God's promise to us in the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

BABerean2 said:

Have you heard, and then believed, and then been sealed with the Holy Spirit?

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I've believed in Christ since before I could speak, because my parents raised me in the faith. I don't believe in some kind of "instruction manual" salvation. I believe in what Christ has done for us, and in God's promises which are ours in His Word and Sacraments.

And before you try to be clever, no I wasn't baptized as an infant. I wasn't raised in a church community that practiced baptism of infants and small children. I was raised, for the first eight years of my life, in a "non-denominational" church with the usual standard Baptist-ish beliefs most "non-denominational" churches tend to espouse. And then from eight to eighteen my family attended a Pentecostal church (International Church of the Foursquare Gospel). It was during my time there that I was finally baptized, at 17 years old.

Because I believe in the promise of the Gospel, I recognize that since having been raised up in the faith I have always believed. There simply was never a time I didn't believe. That is why I can say I have believed in Christ since before I could speak. Because God does not rely on my works to save me, but instead--as He promises--works through the power of His word. That word which I had been hearing and receiving since I was in my mother's womb, that word which I heard lovingly told me to me as a helpless infant in my mother's arms as she cradled me and gave thanks to God.

I don't believe that salvation is some series of steps, or some rigorist's process. Salvation is God's work, accomplished once and for all by Jesus Christ for the whole world, which is ours through faith, which we have received as the pure and unearned gift of God, which He gives and creates in us through the Means He Himself has established: Word and Sacrament. Which is precisely why I can point to the preaching of the Gospel, to my baptism, to the Lord's Supper--to wherever God's word is living and active--and say that here, and not in myself, not in my will, not in my thoughts, not in my feelings, not in my works, not in my efforts, not in anything I have said, thought, felt, or done, here is God's gracious, efficacious, working to make me His on account of what Christ has done. So that, indeed, all which Christ has done is mine, apart from myself, by the grace of God alone. And nothing you can say can destroy the faith and hope I have in Jesus Christ, who suffered, bled, and died for me.

-CryptoLutheran

GET BAPTIZED,,, HOWEVER I JUST HAD AN EYE OPENING EXPERIENCE, I WENT TO A CHURCH.BAPTISM CLASS FIRST,, THEN LATER THEY CALL YOU IN TO BAPTISE YOU...WELL I GET AN E-MAIL SAYING THEY CANNOT DO IT FOR ME BECAUSE I'M NOT PART OF THIER CHURCH!! SHOCKING,,,I SENT THEM AN E-MAIL AND SAID ,,DO WE ,, NOT, ALL WALK WITH JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT/GOD ALL THE SAME,, APPARENTLY NOT...NO OTHER PLACE I KNOW OF TO GET BAPTIZED... SHAME I MIGHT HAVE. TO FLY SOME WHERE DISTANT TO GET BAPTIZED..!!! VERY HARD TO LOCATE HERE ,,NO ONE DOES THIS ANY MORE!!! ANYWAY// SHOCKING. I AM AT A LOSS FOR WORDS..,KEEP THE SABBATH, LEARN.. ,ALL IMPORTANT.. ,,PRAY LOTS...THINK OF JESUS ALL DAY... WAKE UP JOYOUS, AND APPRECIATIVE OF EVERY BREATH YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN,,,THANKFUL ...APPRECIATIVE...COMPASSIONATE,,,YOUR RESPECT WILL BE NOTICED!!! I MAY HAVE TO DO AN ANOITMENT WITH OIL CERAMONY, TAKE CARE AMEN

John the Ex-Baptist said:

If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.

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I see in the scripture, people receiving the Holy Spirit, maybe speaking in tongues, and then shortly after being baptized.

I derive from this convention of New Testament verses that the baptism was not the cause of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (regeneration) the faith was.