Matthew 5 "fulfill the Law" - and 2 contexts: A-Moral Law, B-Ceremonial

BobRyan

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Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,

.

The covenant is different (the agreement) but the LAW is the same - which means it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. Paul reminds us that it is "still the same" in Eph 6:2 -- the Law is the same one Jeremiah knew about ... where "the 5th commandment is the first commandent with a promise" -- it is in THAT context that Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Christ reminds us that that New Covenant Law written on the heart is "unchanged" in Matthew 19 where he quotes directly from the TEN. Just as does Paul in Romans 13... no change pre-cross and post-cross.

which means it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

A detail that BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath agree to.

It just does not "get" any easier than this!

Praise God - the easy and obvious Bible details seen by both sides of that debate!
 
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ace of hearts

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The covenant is different (the agreement) but the LAW is the same - which means it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. Paul reminds us that it is "still the same" in Eph 6:2 -- the Law is the same one Jeremiah knew about ... where "the 5th commandment is the first commandent with a promise" -- it is in THAT context that Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Christ reminds us that that New Covenant Law written on the heart is "unchanged" in Matthew 19 where he quotes directly from the TEN. Just as does Paul in Romans 13... no change pre-cross and post-cross.

which means it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

A detail that BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath agree to.

It just does not "get" any easier than this!

Praise God - the easy and obvious Bible details seen by both sides of that debate!
No the law isn't still the same. Do you want to discuss sin or discuss the law?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No the law isn't still the same. Do you want to discuss sin or discuss the law?

How can you discuss SIN without discussing the law (10 commandments) when it is the law that defines what SIN is *ROMANS 3:20; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; James 2:10-11?
 
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BobRyan

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No the law isn't still the same. Do you want to discuss sin or discuss the law?

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT

a Bible fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!
 
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ace of hearts

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"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT

a Bible fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!
Your verse says - sin is also transgression of the law. Your verse doesn't say sin is only transgression of the law.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
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BobRyan

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No the law isn't still the same. Do you want to discuss sin or discuss the law?

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT

a Bible fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!

Your verse says - sin is also transgression of the law. Your verse doesn't say sin is only transgression of the law.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Distinction without a difference. The text makes it clear "FOR Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

John makes the case that the reason that we have the case - that the one who sins is trangressing the law - is because by definition "SIN IS transgression of the LAW". (obviously)

"4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."KJV

Rom 3 : 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” NKJV

"FOR sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT.

No wonder this Bible is fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!

The point remains.
 
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Deborah D

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Rom 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God
.

Hi, Bob, I have to disagree with you even though I'm used to being on the same side of an argument as you (on the other forum where I'm Prayer Warrior).

Notice that in Romans 2 (that you quoted), Paul is talking about Gentiles who are not saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. They will be judged by the law because their conscience convicts them according to the law. But they refuse the conviction of the Holy Spirit that would lead them to repent and receive Jesus as their Savior.

Again, the key words in verse 29 are "by the Spirit." Paul is talking about the conviction of the Holy Spirit. We live by that conviction, not by the letter of the law. In Romans 8:1-2, Paul says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." We are now under the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." The first half of Romans 8 talks about walking according to the Spirit. In verse 14, Paul says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

I believe that the standard of the New Covenant is not living by the law (even at a higher level as some have said), but living by the Spirit, being led by the Spirit. So, how will we know what's right and wrong if we don't try to keep the law? The Holy Spirit, who convicts us, will not lead us to do anything that is displeasing to God. On the contrary, He will lead us to please God in ALL things, even small things that are not covered by the law. So, no longer do we live by the conviction of the law (which leads to condemnation), but we live by the conviction of the Spirit, who empowers us to live the Christian life by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:3-4--"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." I would conclude that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in Christians who walk after the Spirit, not those who try to keep the law. This means living under the unction and control of the Holy Spirit who indwells us as believers. It's a revolutionary way to live.
 
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ace of hearts

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"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT

a Bible fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!



Distinction without a difference. The text makes it clear "FOR Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

John makes the case that the reason that we have the case - that the one who sins is trangressing the law - is because by definition "SIN IS transgression of the LAW". (obviously)

"4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."KJV

Rom 3 : 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” NKJV

"FOR sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- even in the NT.

No wonder this Bible is fact sooo obvious that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate - agree!

The point remains.
Yeah I guess you're right. The law invented sin.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi rob,
Thanks for your reply. You wrote:
===========================
There seems to be a misunderstanding of what the 'new covenant' is. Jeremiah didn't write any of the new covenant. He did, however, write about the new covenant.


"THIS IS the New Covenant..." makes it clear in his own words what he was writing.

Very different from "there are a few things you should know about the New Covenant"

That New Covenant -- with the law written on the heart precedes Jeremiah - it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham Gal 3:8

Law written on the heart

Deut 6:6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart

Jer 31:
31 "behold, the days are coming, says the lord, when ]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
33 "but this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ps 119:11
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.

Ps 40:8
I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.

Ps 37
30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.

Rom 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God
.

Hi, Bob, I have to disagree with you even though I'm used to being on the same side of an argument as you (on the other forum where I'm Prayer Warrior).

Welcome to the thread - good to have you here.

Notice that in Romans 2 (that you quoted), Paul is talking about Gentiles who are not saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. They will be judged by the law because their conscience convicts them according to the law. But they refuse the conviction of the Holy Spirit that would lead them to repent and receive Jesus as their Savior.

Certainly it is true that there are lost gentiles and also lost Jews in the world.

So the question is - do we find "all gentiles lost " in Romans 2 as "the point" being made?

Rom 2:11 "There is no partiality with God"
Rom 2:13 "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but rather the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge" Rom 2:13-16

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

In that case Paul declares that Jews become spiritual "gentiles" if they live in rebellion against the Word of God.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In vs 26-29 the roles are reversed and it is the gentile who is the spiritual Jew. Because the New Birth miracle of the Gospel - done by the Holy Spirit - is seen to be worked on the heart of the gentile in that example Paul is giving.


Again, the key words in verse 29 are "by the Spirit." Paul is talking about the conviction of the Holy Spirit. We live by that conviction, not by the letter of the law.

More than conviction - it is conversion, the new heart, the circumcised heart, the new birth, the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit.


The first half of Romans 8 talks about walking according to the Spirit. In verse 14, Paul says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

True. and it is that work of the spirit that we see described at the end of Romans 2.

The Holy Spirit, who convicts us, will not lead us to do anything that is displeasing to God. On the contrary, He will lead us to please God in ALL things

True and it is the Spirit writing in 1 John 5 "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3


This means living under the unction and control of the Holy Spirit who indwells us as believers. It's a revolutionary way to live.

The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "writes the LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - on the heart. That is the new birth, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Deborah D

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Rom 2:11 "There is no partiality with God"
Rom 2:13 "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but rather the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge" Rom 2:13-16

Romans 2:12-16--
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.​

Look at the context of these verses in Romans 2. These people are lost. They are not under grace, but under the law, so they will be judged according to the law.

And you have to interpret these verses keeping in mind the preponderance of verses in Romans that show that the law is of no value to the person who has received Christ as his Savior by grace through faith.

Romans 10:4-10--
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: The one who does these things will live by them. But the righteousness that comes from faith speaks like this: Do not say in your heart, “Who will go up to heaven?” that is, to bring Christ down or, “Who will go down into the abyss?” that is, to bring Christ up from the dead. On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim: If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.​

Also, look at Galatians 2:15-21--
We who are Jews by birth and not “Gentile sinners” know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. But if we ourselves are also found to be “sinners” while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild the system I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker. For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
We begin the Christian life, the walk of the Spirit, by grace through faith, and we continue that walk by grace through faith. Paul goes on in Galatians 3 to write a scathing reprimand to the Christians who began according to the Spirit and tried to continue their Christian walk according to the law. He asked them who had "bewitched" them!

Then he asked them in Galatians 3:3, "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? Did you suffer so much for nothing — if in fact it was for nothing? So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,..."

Later in chapter 3 of Galatians, Paul says, "Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 2:12-16--
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.​

Look at the context of these verses in Romans 2.

Paul says
" So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands,..They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts."

In all of scripture there is only one mechanism under the Gospel where "the law is written on the heart" and that is the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-12 - it is the work of the Holy Spirit just as Paul points out at the end of Romans 2. There is no other option in scripture.

Now let's take a text where Paul is saying that everyone - both Jew and gentile are lost and need salvation.

IT will not be a statement of the form "Law is written on the heart" and "do what the law demands".

Rather it will be something like this ...

Rom 3:23 "All have sinned"

Rom 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

The description is not one of "law keeping" but rather "law breaking"

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may be held as guilty before God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin

That is "the lost state" - and nothing in it is of the NEW Covenant form of "The Law written on their heart"

Thus the Rom 2:13-16 statement is about the gospel benefit to the gentiles who have the NEW Covenant work of the LAW written on the heart.


"16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.."


And you have to interpret these verses keeping in mind the preponderance of verses in Romans that show that the law is of no value to the person who has received Christ as his Savior by grace through faith.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Rom 8:4-10 it is the lost that "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed can they"

Heb 8:6-11 the New Covenant saints do not abolish the law - rather they have "The LAW written on the heart".

1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" says Paul - law breakers do not go to heaven.

Romans 6 - do not be deceived - "you are the slave of the one you obey" - and obeying sin results in death.

Rom 10:4 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

For Christ is the goal/Culmination (NIV) of the law

Also, look at Galatians 2:15-21--
We who are Jews by birth and not “Gentile sinners” know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. C.H. Spurgeon makes that same point about obedience vs rebellion. So also does D.L. Moody make that argument.

Nothing I have quoted argues for "justified by the works of the law" - and Gal 2 Is not a text arguing in favor of taking God's name in vain.
This is not a view unique to Sabbath-keeping, take a look at the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19, and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19.

See Romans 13 list of the TEN that Paul quotes

See Matt 19 - Christ and Paul quoting the same details from the TEN.

And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

And those justified by faith are under the NEW Covenant with the LAW of God written on the heart. They by their faith "establish the LAW" -- no wonder God says
"this IS the LOVE of God that we keep His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
where the "first commandment with a promise is th 5th commandment" Eph 6:2

But if we ourselves are also found to be “sinners” while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild the system I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker.

Obedience, and not rebellion against the Law of God - is what characterizes the saints.

We begin the Christian life, the walk of the Spirit, by grace through faith, and we continue that walk by grace through faith - and the result is not a walk of "rebellion against the commandments of God" for as Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19


in chapter 3 of Galatians, Paul says, "Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned


And in chapter 3 of Romans Paul defines the term "under the law" as "under the condemnation of the Law" Rom 3:19-21


The LAW was the guardian of the lost - placing them under condemnation as Romans 3 says and guiding them ... directing them to the solution for sin -- Christ. So that when "faith comes" (not when "Christ comes" but when FAITH comes to the lost person) we are released from that condemnation - no longer under the condemnation of the law.

hence even for New Covenant Christians it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain.

And even in the NEW testament "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4


So then " the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
 
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Deborah D

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Thus the Rom 2:13-16 statement is about the gospel benefit to the gentiles who have the NEW Covenant work of the LAW written on the heart.

When you say Law, are you talking about the Law given through Moses found in the Torah (the 1st five books of the Bible)?
 
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ace of hearts

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"THIS IS the New Covenant..." makes it clear in his own words what he was writing.

Very different from "there are a few things you should know about the New Covenant"

That New Covenant -- with the law written on the heart precedes Jeremiah - it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham Gal 3:8

Law written on the heart

Deut 6:6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart
Who's heart? The context is Israel only. Your intent is that the word "your" also means our gentile heart. This is twisting Scripture into something it doesn't say. It has no reference to the new covenant either. So your idea about the following misquote is also in error. You leave out the middle part of the sentence you refuse to deal with.
Jer 31:
31 "behold, the days are coming, says the lord, when ]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
33 "but this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
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ace of hearts

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Paul says
" So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands,..They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts."

In all of scripture there is only one mechanism under the Gospel where "the law is written on the heart" and that is the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-12 - it is the work of the Holy Spirit just as Paul points out at the end of Romans 2. There is no other option in scripture.

Now let's take a text where Paul is saying that everyone - both Jew and gentile are lost and need salvation.

IT will not be a statement of the form "Law is written on the heart" and "do what the law demands".
It isn't this law given to Israel that the Gentiles have or obey. Read the Scripture. Since it isn't the covenant law of Israel written on their heart your defense of the sabbath fails.
 
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ace of hearts

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When you say Law, are you talking about the Law given through Moses found in the Torah (the 1st five books of the Bible)?
When it suits him and no one calls him on the issue. Otherwise he refers to a different set of laws as God's law. Very few people catch this interchange of meaning and words.
 
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BobRyan

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When you say Law, are you talking about the Law given through Moses found in the Torah (the 1st five books of the Bible)?

Paul says the "LAW" is the one where "The first commandment with a promise - is the 5th commandment" Eph 6:2 -- a feature unique to the TEN.

The one Paul quotes from in Romans 13, the one that Christ quotes from in Matthew 19 and Mark 7:6-13, the one James quotes from in James 2, the one Paul quotes from in Romans 7...
 
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BobRyan

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It isn't this law given to Israel that the Gentiles have or obey. .

The LAW given at Sinai says "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 those who supposed to themselves that doing such a thing is ok "for them" are not reading the actual Bible.

The LAW known to JEREMIAH and his readers is the one HE says is 'written on the heart and mind' -- under the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33

Here again - Bible details matter.
 
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Deborah D

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The LAW given at Sinai says "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 those who supposed to themselves that doing such a thing is ok "for them" are not reading the actual Bible.

The LAW known to JEREMIAH and his readers is the one HE says is 'written on the heart and mind' -- under the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33

Here again - Bible details matter.

I agree that Bible details matter. However, we have to interpret the details of Scripture from the scope of the whole Bible. I'm trying to understand what you believe.

Jeremiah 32:31-33--
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

So, based on these verses, you're saying that the LAW "written on the heart and mind -- under the NEW Covenant" is not according to the Old Covenant that was based on the Mosaic law.

So, this "New Covenant law" is based on what?
.
 
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psalm911

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Can we agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

1. Moral Law can be perfectly fulfilled (complied with) and doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin.

(Where Matthew 5 confines itself to the moral law -- perfectly complied with (fulfilled) in the case of Christ and the "examples" the text gives. "Obviously"

2. Predictive Law in ceremonies can be fulfilled (fulfilling a promise, as predicted) - and does not obligate anyone else to fulfill that prediction.

So then "perfectly fulfilled" has two contexts.

... I claim Christ fulfilled both moral law and predictive ceremonial law...

hence - it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain"

All the law is fulfilled in this saying, you shall love your neighbor as your self. Christ fulfilled this law by dying: greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
 
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It isn't this law given to Israel that the Gentiles have or obey. .

The LAW given at Sinai says "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 those who supposed to themselves that doing such a thing is ok "for them" are not reading the actual Bible.

The LAW known to JEREMIAH and his readers is the one HE says is 'written on the heart and mind' -- under the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33

Here again - Bible details matter.

I agree that Bible details matter. However, we have to interpret the details of Scripture from the scope of the whole Bible.

Agreed. Good exegesis matters. :)

I'm trying to understand what you believe.

Jeremiah 31:31-33--
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

So, based on these verses, you're saying that the LAW "written on the heart and mind -- under the NEW Covenant" is not according to the Old Covenant that was based on the Mosaic law.

The Old Covenant includes
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
and "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12
and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
and "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

so does the "LAW" that Jeremiah and his readers knew about -- contain those same commandments.

These two points are irrefutable.

The new Covenant includes the Ten Commandments where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:2 and it still applies to Christians to this very day.

So then again.. ."exegesis matters" when understanding the meaning of terms used.

Covenants are "agreements" and laws, conditions, promises etc.

Gal 3 says that the old covenant agreement is of the form "obey and live".

But the New Covenant is in the form of the Gospel , forgiveness of sins, new heart, adoption etc and that new heart has the LAW of God written on it.

Gal 1:6-9 in all of time there is only ONE Gospel and the New Covenant is it. And that gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

The New Covenant is ratified in the blood of Christ on the cross -- but its "one gospel" framework was fully active in the OT such that even Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven as we see not only in the OT but also pre-cross in Matthew 17 in the case of Moses and Elijah. God is not limited by time - Christ is the lamb of God slain "From the foundation of the world"

===============

I bet that every -- get-rid-of-ten-commandments sort of "Gospel" you have ever heard preached is in fact a two-gospel system , two-ways-of-salvation where OT saints are saved by some form of works - and new saints are saved by grace through faith.

I think those two-gospel systems are all flawed. There has only been one in all of time and that is the NEW Covenant preached in the OT - New birth in the OT, born-again saints in the OT - saved-by-grace-through-faith in the OT. OT does not mean "Old Covenant"..

All the lost today are lost under the "Old Covenant" model of "obey and live" - an agreement first made with Adam and Eve... and they failed it. So also today "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3.

All saved today are saved under the "New Covenant"
 
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