United Methodists Tighten Ban on Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Clergy

Kenny'sID · Feb 28, 2019

This is not directed at anyone whatsoever here, but I find the need you use the term so often, that I need to know if there is a kind, or more acceptable term for "playing dum"?

Anyone?

Dave G. · Feb 28, 2019

straykat said:
We can work on all sins in our lives. Just because some people focus on homosexuality at the expense of others doesn't make it a non-issue.

This is why I say let a sodomite into a church to help with the sin but they don't get to marry another sodomite or run the church. And if they practice the sin within the body cut them loose. Most churches who are really of God and run of the Holy Spirit as witness expect repentance. Scripture doesn't say come to Christ and keep living in the sins of your past, Jesus said He forgave the prostitute and then told her to go her way and sin no more. In other words, you're forgiven now give up prostitution, turn away from it. She had a new life. We are supposed to learn from these lessons, it seems some here want to create their own lessons for everyone else to accept.

JacobKStarkey · Feb 28, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes Jesus did condemn all illicit sexual relations and behavior.

Show me specifically where condemned homosexuality specifically.

JacobKStarkey · Feb 28, 2019

helmut said:
He usually didn't talk about things that were unanimous in his Jewish society. When the Gospel was spread into Hellenistic non-Jewish society, this question had to be addressed, and was, by Paul.

So you can't point to Jesus condemning homosexuality.

Dave G. · Feb 28, 2019

Sparagmos said:
Funny, I don’t see that in the rules. The rule is quite broad. Am I not being clear that I do not agree to this line of debate?

you want me to produce historical evidence for a prediction?

Ok. Support for same sex marriage has gone from 35% to 62% in the last 15 years or so. Among millennials it was 74% in 2017. Where are all of those people going to go to church?

So what ? It's just support by deceived man, God hasn't changed. Scripture says it will be this way in the end times, and "they are given over to deceiving ( seducing) spirits". It says it will get so bad that "even the saints would be deceived if that were possible".

Norbert L · Feb 28, 2019

JacobKStarkey said:
So you can't point to Jesus condemning homosexuality.

It's not as obvious as that. There's the other side of the coin that such a line of questioning ignores. You would also likewise need to show from the Bible where Jesus promotes that a homosexual lifestyle and activity should be accepted among the Church.

You can't simply quote anything like that either, it's a much more complex question, hence there are deeper reasons why this split among Christians and it's not really a new thing either. What can be done is point to observations being made within the Bible of people with opposite views on what Jesus taught pretty much right from the start. Jude 1:4 Jude 1:12.

FireDragon76 · Feb 28, 2019

Ringo84 said:
I imagine that we'll soon be running afoul of the rules against "debating homosexuality", so maybe we should just leave it at agreeing to disagree. I'll only observe that those who support this ban are the ones dividing the Methodist faith - not the "icky" LGBT clergy.
Ringo

Indeed. Unlike in the ELCA, in the UMC there is no respect for the bound conscience of an individual in this matter.

I think it is best if the United Methodist Church splits. They need to have autonomous national churches, similar to Anglicans or Lutherans. It is too hard to get people from different cultures agreeing on religion.

FireDragon76 · Feb 28, 2019

Dave G. said:
I didn't realize that watered down biblical doctrine had hit the Baptist community too. I understand accepting gays in the body but I'd be really surprised to hear that Baptists were freely marrying sodomites and allowing them to preach as well... If so then that church adds to the ranks of apostate churches. There are scriptural guidelines to be followed, at least according to God. Men we know can come up with anything but God doesn't change.

People need to stop throwing around the word "apostate churches". It is highly offensive. Some of us belong to those churches and we take our Christianity just as seriously as the Christians that disagree with us.

As far as I know, Ringo's church is probably one of the tens of thousands of churches out there that just welcomes everybody and believes in showing hospitality. It doesn't mean they ordain gay clergy or marry gays. Many churches are taking a cautious approach on this issue, without wanting to be overtly ugly and hateful.

JacobKStarkey · Feb 28, 2019

Yes, it is as obvious as Jesus speaking directly about homosexuality.

It is not obvious from mere men speaking about it.

And the term "apostate churches" can cut two ways.

redleghunter · Feb 28, 2019

Sparagmos said:
Ok. Support for same sex marriage has gone from 35% to 62% in the last 15 years or so. Among millennials it was 74% in 2017. Where are all of those people going to go to church?

I believe my point was what justification Scripturally and as demonstrated by the historic church. Opinion polls do not drive or change the Truth of God.

redleghunter · Feb 28, 2019

SpiritSong said:
In my area there is a Free Methodist Church and 2 United Methodist Churches. It may be that some members leave the UMC and move on to the FMC. Time will tell. I am not in favor of the decision, but for now I am remaining in the UMC and watching how this finalizes in 2022. I will make my final decision then.

By 2022 it is estimated the African churches within UMC will gain an additional 13 delegates.

Pioneer3mm · Feb 28, 2019

redleghunter said:
I guess they could have gone line by line of the book of discipline show the Scriptural foundation of it and all recommit to Wesleyan beliefs.

But the amendments were propaganda moves to muddy the waters that some sin was being accepted when others were not.

Now I’m completely in agreement that gays have observed certain sins not disciplined and that has given some to call foul and hypocrisy. I stand with them on that. But the solution is not to further soil the church but reform it redirecting all to God’s Holy standards.

Again it is shocking to me the very church John Wesley of the Holiness movement has come to this.

You wrote, "..It is shocking to me.." - last sentence.
"Methodist" movement lost original fervor, vision and
commitment..long ago.
I have been in Methodist camp - many years ago.
---
Some denominational policies/amendment are involved in
"political power play within denomination".
- Not necessarily out of "genuine heart commitment" to issues.
- Some other denominations follow same pattern.
---
I like stories of early days - frontier "Circuit Riders."

Daniel Martinovich · Feb 28, 2019

Sparagmos said:
Funny, I don’t see that in the rules. The rule is quite broad. Am I not being clear that I do not agree to this line of debate?

you want me to produce historical evidence for a prediction?

Ok. Support for same sex marriage has gone from 35% to 62% in the last 15 years or so. Among millennials it was 74% in 2017. Where are all of those people going to go to church?

Must not be, or its pop culture fake. Because you don't see reflected in Churches anywhere. What we have been seeing in the last 40 years is if a church or denomination goes liberal or leftist. It dies numbers wise. In the mean time conservative Christian churches have been seeing unprecedented growth. As evidenced by the tens of thousands of mega churches in the USA.

mark kennedy · Feb 28, 2019

redleghunter said:
I know you mentioned in another thread the financial and property issues arising from denominational splits.

My daughters churxh was ready to leave the United Methodist denomination over this, which would have coat them the building since UMC owns it.

Archivist · Feb 28, 2019

Several have said that the UMC should not ordain homosexual clergy because it is an unrepentant sin. I'm curious, do they ordain those who are divorced? What about those who are overweight? I'm not Methodist so I don't know what their policies are.

Pioneer3mm · Feb 28, 2019

mark kennedy said:
My daughters churxh was ready to leave the United Methodist denomination over this, which would have coat them the building since UMC owns it.

Correct me if I am wrong..
----
I heard this - some years ago.
- UMC is one of top real estate holders in this country.

redleghunter · Feb 28, 2019

JacobKStarkey said:
Show me specifically where condemned homosexuality specifically.

That would be akin to me asking you for explicit evidence homosexual relations. Jesus Christ affirmed the moral Law in His teachings.

Christ affirmed what was true and right in His ministry. The sermon on the mount comes to mind as Jesus teaching the Law but more clearly to include that our very thoughts condemn us.

Jesus condemned fornication:

Mark 7: NASB

17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Fornications=inappropriate contenteia G4202

illicit sexual intercourse
1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
metaph. the worship of idols
1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

πορνεία, πορνείας, ἡ (πορνεύω), the Sept. for תַּזְנוּת, זְנוּת, זְנוּנִים, fornication (Vulg. fornicatio (and (Revelation 19:2) prostitutio)); used
a. properly, of illicit sexual intercourse in general (Demosthenes, 403, 27; 433, 25): Acts 15:20, 29; Acts 21:25 (that this meaning must be adopted in these passages will surprise no one who has learned from 1 Corinthians 6:12ff how leniently converts from among the heathen regarded this vice and how lightly they indulged in it; accordingly, all other interpretations of the term, such as of marriages within the prohibited degrees and the like, are to be rejected); Romans 1:29 Rec.; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Corinthians 6:13, 18; 1 Corinthians 7:2; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Revelation 9:21; it is distinguished from μοιχεία in Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21; and Galatians 5:19 Rec.; used of adultery ((cf. Hosea 2:2 (4), etc.)), Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9.
b. In accordance with a form of speech common in the O. T. and among the Jews which represents the close relationship existing between Jehovah and his people under the figure of a marriage (cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, i., p. 422{a} following), πορνεία is used metaphorically of the worship of idols: Revelation 14:8; Revelation 17:2, 4; Revelation 18:3; Revelation 19:2; ἡμεῖς ἐκ πορνείας οὐ γεγεννήμεθα (we are not of a people given to idolatry), ἕνα πατέρα ἔχομεν τόν Θεόν, John 8:41 (ἄθεος μέν ὁ ἄγονος, πολύθεος δέ ὁ ἐκ πόρνης, τυφλωττων περί τόν ἀληθῆ πατέρα καί διά τοῦτο πολλούς ἀνθ' ἑνός γονεῖς αἰνιττόμενος, Philo de mig. Abr. § 12; τέκνα πορνείας, of idolaters, Hosea 1:2; (but in John, the passage cited others understand physical descent to be spoken of (cf. Meyer))); of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols, Revelation 2:21. (inappropriate contenteia G4202)

Therefore, Jesus condemns all illicit sex in this passage from Mark 7. What did Jesus affirm? Within the context of answering the Jewish religious leaders on the subject of divorce, Jesus affirms the union of one man and one woman as the design of God from the beginning:

Matthew 19: NASB
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” 7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

And the companion passage in Mark:

Mark 10: NASB

2Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

In the above passages Jesus accomplishes two things. First He confirms God's original design for men and women in union as He cites Genesis 2:24 ; (2) He affirms that this marriage is one man and one woman.

Given Jesus teaches "fornication" (illicit sexual relations) is an 'evil thing' which proceeds from within and defiles us (sin), and that He confirms only a one man one woman sexual union in marriage, this leaves us with homosexual relations as fornication (illicit sex) and therefore condemned.

redleghunter · Feb 28, 2019

JacobKStarkey said:
So you can't point to Jesus condemning homosexuality.

I address your logical fallacy here.

Neostarwcc · Feb 28, 2019

I watched this on the news last night. Apparently some churches are against it too. They were saying things like "This is ridiculous God accepts and loves all people and accepts gay marriage"

*sigh* I cannot believe that some churches fall into that hole. God does not favor gay marriage and while its true that he loves all people he still hates the sins these people are living in.

redleghunter · Feb 28, 2019

Archivist said:
Several have said that the UMC should not ordain homosexual clergy because it is an unrepentant sin. I'm curious, do they ordain those who are divorced? What about those who are overweight? I'm not Methodist so I don't know what their policies are.

A most novel approach may just be to follow apostolic teaching:

1 Timothy 3: NASB

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1: NASB

5For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Also consider the things Paul tells Timothy 12 things he should command and teach. This can be found starting in 1 Timothy 4:11 through 1 Timothy 6:2

United Methodists Tighten Ban on Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Clergy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Friend

Natura non facit saltum

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

Thank You Jesus!

Similar threads