Date setting and prophecy unfulfilled

parousia70

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Jesus said the abomination that causes desolation which is placed by the armed forces of the king of the north, causes great tribulation unlike there has ever been nor ever shall be.
Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

What gives? Just how many "ever was nor ever shall be" events are there, and how can they all be the greatest that "ever was nor ever shall be"??


Its like how God told Noah it was going to flood.Noah wasnt sure when it was going to untill a certain point in time he was told how many days away the rain was.

So you are saying that when God puts a time frame onto a prophecy, that He uses time in the "literal" sense, the way it relates to and is understood by Man, and not in the elastic, metaphoric sense, as How it relates to or is understood by Him?

If so, I agree.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Douggg said:
You should talk to the Jews (Judaism) about their view of what they call the final redemption being all of the Jews being brought back to the land of Israel.
They don't read our/their NT or Revelation ;)
Their view appears somewhat flawed.

Acts 13
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Good verse.
Jesus refers to them in this covenantle parable/story in Luke 16.

Note who the "rich man" is calling out to:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:2

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
30 "And he said, 'No! father Abraham;
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
==========================
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.
Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them.
How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?

The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.
=====================================
And the veil of Moses:

2 Corinthians 3: 12
12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
13and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn —
which in Christ is being made useless —

15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away.
=====================
The OC Jews really need to read Revelation [as well as the rest of the NT, and the veil will be removed and they will rejoicing

Revelation 1:1
An un-veiling/revealing<602> of Jesus Christ
, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

602. apokalupsis from 601;
disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
575. apo apo' a primary particle;
"off," i.e. away (from something near),
2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.
2571. kaluma kal'-oo-mah from 2572; a cover, i.e. veil:--vail.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

What gives? Just how many "ever was nor ever shall be" events are there, and how can they all be the greatest that "ever was nor ever shall be"??




So you are saying that when God puts a time frame onto a prophecy, that He uses time in the "literal" sense, the way it relates to and is understood by Man, and not in the elastic, metaphoric sense, as How it relates to or is understood by Him?

If so, I agree.


Matthew 24:21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.


You dont have to believe Jesus if you dont want to.

Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

You also need not understand.
 
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grafted branch

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The most important aspect of Daniel's 70 week vision is the 6 points of Daniel 9:24. We can clearly see the gospel present within this single verse. It is not Israel the nation that would fulfill these 6 points, but Christ, the true Israel, that could alone fulfill these 6 points for his people. Jesus finished the transgress, Jesus put an end to sin, Jesus made atonement for sin, Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness, Jesus fulfilled all that was written about him, Jesus was the most holy that was anointed.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) stop their transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to make atonement for iniquity, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 4.) to seal up vision and prophecy, 6.) and to anoint the Most Holy.


It would be 69 sevens from the time that the decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed prince. When was Jesus anointed? At his baptism. Thus, point number 6 from Daniel 9:24, the most holy, that is Jesus Christ, was anointed at the beginning of his ministry. **Interesting to note that both Mark and John begin at the baptism/ministry of Christ.

Daniel 9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

Acts 10:37-38 You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power

After 69 sevens, Jesus would be crucified and the city and sanctuary would be destroyed. Jesus was crucified on a Friday in either 30 AD or 33AD. I would argue it was 30AD, as it was in the 15th year of Tiberius (this would have been around 26AD). This would make Jesus ministry around 3.5 years. The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70AD, around 40 years after Christ's death. At this point, it still stands that Christ was crucified, and Jerusalem and temple destroyed after the 69 sevens

Daniel 9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.


Now the controversial verse. Who confirms the covenant? Jesus or the antichrist? Who puts and end to the sacrifice and offering? Jesus or the antichrist? Is the destruction of the temple required for the 6 points of Daniel to be fulfilled?

There are multiple scripture that show Jesus confirmed a covenant outside of Daniel 9 (malachi 3:1, Matthew 26:28). There are NO scriptures outside of Daniel 9 that specifically state an antichrist will make a covenant. Jesus put an end to the sacrifice and offering (Hebrews 10:8-10). There are scriptures that say specifically the "daily", which was the daily burnt offering will cease (Daniel 8, Daniel 12), but there are NO scriptures that state the antichrist will take away the sacrifice and offering.


If the destruction of the temple in Daniel refers to Jesus (John 2:19) then I would say it must be within the 70 weeks, as the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ are required for the 6 points to be fulfilled within the 70 seven time frame.

If the destruction of the temple refers to the physical temple in 70AD, I would argue no, it it's destruction isn't required for the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled, and thus fall outside of the 70 sevens.

Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,g until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

Hi claninja,

I think we are very close in our beliefs when it comes to the 6 points in Daniel 9:24. I agree that the 6 points are critical to understanding the 70 weeks. I asked the question in the original post, because if there is no reasonable answer to it, then working backwards to the controversial verse, Daniel 9:27, the covenant which is confirmed for 1 week can’t be placed in the future. This would be another way to refute it being the Antichrist besides the reasons you stated.

You also stated that Jesus’s ministry starts when he is baptized. I differ from you on this point; I think his ministry starts in Matthew 4:17. I think there are 30 days in between this and John 1:29 where he is declared to be the Lamb of God. Jesus is baptized and immediately he goes into the wilderness for 40 days (Mark 1:9-13). John 1:29 must occur after this because in the following verses it’s clear he is not in the wilderness and the next day 2 of John’s disciples follow Jesus. The reason I think there are 30 days in between these events is because in Daniel 12:11-12 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days, it would have taken some time to put the temple back in order and resume the sacrifices after the veil was torn and the earthquake.

Let me know if you find anything in my view on this, right or wrong, that deserves a comment, as I am always studying and learning.
 
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parousia70

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Oh I believe Him...
And as I pointed out, Matthew 24:21 is at least the 7th event recorded in scripture that Jesus/God says would be the "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be"..

You don't have to believe the scriptural testimony of Jesus and God that there are/have been MULTIPLE "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" events.

You also don't have to understand how Scripture's use of hyperbole makes that possible.

Indeed, you need not understand.
 
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claninja

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I think we are very close in our beliefs when it comes to the 6 points in Daniel 9:24. I agree that the 6 points are critical to understanding the 70 weeks. I asked the question in the original post, because if there is no reasonable answer to it, then working backwards to the controversial verse, Daniel 9:27, the covenant which is confirmed for 1 week can’t be placed in the future. This would be another way to refute it being the Antichrist besides the reasons you stated.

Definitely agree

also stated that Jesus’s ministry starts when he is baptized. I differ from you on this point; I think his ministry starts in Matthew 4:17. I think there are 30 days in between this and John 1:29 where he is declared to be the Lamb of God. Jesus is baptized and immediately he goes into the wilderness for 40 days (Mark 1:9-13). John 1:29 must occur after this because in the following verses it’s clear he is not in the wilderness and the next day 2 of John’s disciples follow Jesus.

Definitely a possibility.

However, I would still argue Jesus ministry began at his baptism. for that is when he was anointed by God.

Luke mentions a specific detail right after the baptism: that Jesus was around 30 when he began his ministry.

Luke 3:21-23 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Jesus Himself was about thirty years old when He began His ministry.

I believe the temptation in the wilderness to be a part of his ministry, as this is when he preached from the book of Deuteronomy to Satan

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness

Luke 4:4 4But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’a ” (deut 8:3)
Luke 4:8 8But Jesus replied, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’b ” (deut 6:13)
Luke 4:12 12But Jesus declared, “It also says, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d ” (deut 6:16)

The reason I think there are 30 days in between these events is because in Daniel 12:11-12 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days, it would have taken some time to put the temple back in order and resume the sacrifices after the veil was torn and the earthquake.

Daniel 12:11-12 is definitely a difficult verse. The reason is because Daniel 10-12 are all a part of 1 vision, so does Daniel 12:11-12 refer back to Daniel 11:31? or are these 2 separate events?

Additionally NT scripture doesn't give us any interpretation on these specific time frames of 1290 and 1335 days.

Considering Jesus states that no one knows they day or hour, not even himself, I don't believe the 1290 and 1335 days refer to the parousia of Christ. Otherwise, they would know to count off 1290 and 1335 from the time of AOD.

matthew 24:36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son

In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed.

Not to sure what you mean by this. could you clarify? It seems you believe in a future rebuilt temple?

 
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grafted branch

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Not to sure what you mean by this. could you clarify? It seems you believe in a future rebuilt temple?

Thanks for your insight on this, I appreciate it.

To clarify my view on AOD, I do not believe a future temple is required to fulfill the scriptures. I believe the first sacrifice made after the veil was torn in two is the AOD in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. I associate the veil being torn in two with Daniel 9:27 where he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. I think this caused the sacrifices to physically cease for a short time. Because along with the veil being torn in two the rocks were rent, I think this is the altar used to make the sacrifices being rent or broken apart. When the veil and altar are repaired or replaced, this is what I think is meant by the AOD standing in the holy place and standing where it ought not.
 
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claninja

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Thanks for your insight on this, I appreciate it.

and you as well

To clarify my view on AOD, I do not believe a future temple is required to fulfill the scriptures.

I agree

I believe the first sacrifice made after the veil was torn in two is the AOD in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

How do you reconcile this with Jesus telling them to flee to the mountains when the see the AOD standing where it ought not be? The disciples didn't flee to the mountains when the temple veil ripped. In fact, they were with Jesus, in Jerusalem, 45 days prior to the spirit being sent.

Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

I would argue the desolation is more related to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple not having one stone upon another.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

Luke 21:5-6 As some of the disciples were remarking how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said,“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one will be toppled.”
 
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grafted branch

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and you as well



I agree



How do you reconcile this with Jesus telling them to flee to the mountains when the see the AOD standing where it ought not be? The disciples didn't flee to the mountains when the temple veil ripped. In fact, they were with Jesus, in Jerusalem, 45 days prior to the spirit being sent.

Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

I would argue the desolation is more related to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple not having one stone upon another.

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

Luke 21:5-6 As some of the disciples were remarking how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said,“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one will be toppled.”

As always seems to be the case, when 1 problem is solved many more must be answered. You are correct when you state the disciples didn’t flee when the veil was torn. It also states in Luke 24:49 they are to tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

I agree with you that the AOD is not the same event as the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 which I think is what is in view in Luke 21. However the language describing both events is very similar and the reason for this is that Jerusalem should have been destroyed when the AOD occurred but it wasn’t because the days were shortened.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both record the statement except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Luke 21:22 states that these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. In Isaiah 53:10 which is speaking of Christ it states “when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days”. By implication if the days of vengeance are shortened then the days without vengeance will be prolonged. The statement that the days shall be shortened is not recorded in Luke and I think the days being prolonged have been incorporated into it. I think this is why the account in Luke doesn’t use the term “abomination of desolation” but says “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies”.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (which in all likelihood was written before A.D.70) seems to address this very subject when it states “the Lord is not slack concerning his promise”. I think the “longsuffering to us-ward” is to be equated with the shortening of the days of vengeance and “not willing that any should perish” is to be equated with the sake of the elect.

One other point I will make is Matthew 24:34 states that this generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled. In Matthew 1:17 there are 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the exile to Babylon, and 14 from the exile to Babylon unto Christ. In Luke 1:32-33 Christ is given the throne of David and reigns forever. If the generations are viewed as time periods during certain individual’s lives and Christ lives and reigns forever then this statement can be referring to many human generations.
 
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claninja

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As always seems to be the case, when 1 problem is solved many more must be answered.

I know all too well how that goes.

I agree with you that the AOD is not the same event as the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 which I think is what is in view in Luke 21

Sorry if I wasn't clear. But I do believe the AOD standing in the holy place in Matthew and Jerusalem surrounded by armies in Luke to be about the same event. I believe Luke's gospel (written to a more gentile audience) explains a little more what the AOD is. **Notice that when the disciples were to see the AOD/armies surrounding Jerusalem, they were to flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both record the statement except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

I believe the context is Jerusalem. If the days of the tribulation on Jerusalem were not cut short, none of "this people" (Jews) would have survived. But because of God's grace, he cut short those days for the sake of the elect.

Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then

Matthew 24:21-22 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

Luke 21:23 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

By implication if the days of vengeance are shortened then the days without vengeance will be prolonged. The statement that the days shall be shortened is not recorded in Luke and I think the days being prolonged have been incorporated into it.

definitely a possibility

I think this is why the account in Luke doesn’t use the term “abomination of desolation” but says “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies”.

I would say Luke is slightly different, as its argued that Luke's audience was gentile, while matthew and mark's audience were jewish. Thus Luke used language that gentiles would have been more familiar with.

think the “longsuffering to us-ward” is to be equated with the shortening of the days of vengeance and “not willing that any should perish” is to be equated with the sake of the elect.

I can definitely agree.

One other point I will make is Matthew 24:34 states that this generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled. In Matthew 1:17 there are 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the exile to Babylon, and 14 from the exile to Babylon unto Christ. In Luke 1:32-33 Christ is given the throne of David and reigns forever. If the generations are viewed as time periods during certain individual’s lives and Christ lives and reigns forever then this statement can be referring to many human generations.

I would disagree, only because every other time Jesus uses "this generation" he is specifically talking about the one standing in front of him:

when jesus uses "this generation in Luke 11, he is specifically talking about the one in front of him. The queen of the south would rise with "this generation" that is the generation standing in front of jesus, not a period of tim.
Luke 11:29-32 As the crowds were increasing, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation.
The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here.

Jesus was to suffer and be rejected by "this generation" which was the one standing in front of him.
Luke 17:25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Jesus charged the Jewish leaders and teachers of the law "this generation" with all the righteous blood shed.
Matthew 23:34-36 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
 
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