Was Paul a heretic?

Neostarwcc said:

...I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?....

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I think it all depends on what saved means. I have understood saved means that person is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin. Jesus offered forgiveness freely and so there is no works required for to be saved. However, it is not all and it doesn’t directly mean that person also gets eternal life. Jesus told eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, after one is saved from judgment, he should become righteous, so that he would not continue in sin anymore. If person becomes righteous, it will be seen also in his actions. Righteous person does righteous things. And reason for right acts is that person has right understanding, he knows what is good and right and wants to freely to do it, not because tries to gain salvation, but because it is good.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Paul and Jesus both are correct, if understood correctly. It is true that there is no works that would give eternal life or forgiveness. But still, not all will get eternal life. Eternal life is for righteous and if person is righteous, he does righteous things.

Neostarwcc said:

Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved.

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Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Hi Neostarwcc, first off, this verse isn't referring to living the Christian life. Rather, it's in reference to the moment in time that God chooses to justify/save us .. cf John 5:24. It also concerns the basis or reason for His gracious choice (which is saving faith in the works of Another, done on our behalf).

Once we are justified/saved by God, we are made, "His workmanship/masterpiece", created in Christ Jesus ~FOR~ good works" .. Ephesians 2:10, not because of them (or because of anything else that 'we' do). It's His works alone, done on our behalf, that merit our salvation.

Our good works are the result or fruit of our salvation, not the cause of it (nor are our works the reason that we remain saved). We are saved by grace alone though faith, APART from anything we do .. ever .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

As my signature line quote says however, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone". IOW, if we have been changed/quickened/made alive & then justified/saved by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:4-5, and have been made by Him into new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21, we will, as His workmanship, choose to do the things that we were created to do .. Ephesians 2:10. Therefore our works justify/demonstrate/verify/prove .. James 2:18, 24, to ourselves and to others, that our claim/belief that we have come to saving faith in Christ and become a Christian is true (but again, there is nothing that 'we' can do to merit our salvation, as He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins).

--David

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Neostarwcc said:

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

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All you need to do is note whom each person was talking too.

If Paul was talking to a gentile church then the law will be absent. If Jesus is talking to the Jews in Israel then the law will be featured.

Neostarwcc said:

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

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Or maybe you should realize we need an authority to interprete Scriptures and "Sola Scriptura" is an innovation.

Neostarwcc said:

Okay before people start raging at me, I do not personally believe that Paul was a heretic. I believe that he was sent by God to declare the gospel and spread the word of truth to both Jew and Gentile. But there are people out there who do and bring up some interesting arguments. Like say for example that what Paul said didn't line up with Jesus's teachings. One example that they bring up is that Paul brings up in Romans 4:5 that the person who doesn't do works is still saved. Yet Jesus refutes this statement in Matthew 25:31-46. Honestly? I have no counter argument to that. I do not believe that a person who does no works at all will be saved. Because our works show our faith and a faith without works is a dead faith. Yet Paul says the opposite?

Here's one particular video of someone who thinks that Paul's teachings didn't line up with those of Jesus:

I tried answering the video once but I didn't think I came off as satisfactory. And he brings up some really good points...

Click to expand...

Hi Brother ..I would suppose that Paul having come from a background of Jewish Law keeping understood more than most the result of works . The result was and is , spiritual pride and self righteousness , leading us to hate others not as "good" as we are . ( Think Isis and other "justification through law keeping religions" ) As you know, mercy and Grace has the other effect ...having received life though under a sentence of death works gratitude and should work humility and a striving for holiness . ) The works we have been given to do are all to and for the glory of God but add nothing to my salvation no more than a tiger being changed into a sheep and starts eating grass ....should the sheep glory in grass eating ? No ....it is only doing what is now natural for a sheep ...that is the same reason that Jesus says " When you have done all that I have commanded you to do , say I am an unprofitable servant ..I have only done what was commanded of me . On the flip side ...a tiger by it's own power will never become a sheep though it may eat grass ...it would have to have a supernatural event for it to actually prefer grass . Faith without works is dead ..both to itself and others ...It can not ..it will not reproduce ..without works , we are spiritually sterile .

Hammster said:

There’s a general misunderstanding of Matt 25 in that people assume that it’s the works that make people sheep or goats. The reality is that people are either sheep or goats, and the evidence of that is the works they do. So Matt 25 is descriptive, not prescriptive.

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Hey.. I understand and can see what your saying but.. from what I read this happens after the great tribulation. And .. no one in heaven or in the earth is gathered. "All the nations will be gathered before him". Some miss the key words. Christ is not like us.. He means EVERY WORD. Every word He speaks is life and has a meaning. So when He says to those "I never knew you". Its not like as if you and me are friends and I do something really bad and you say "dude.. I never knew you.. I thought I did"..

You say JESUS is lord.. you tell someone about Him.. He then tells the Father and ALL heaven knows you. To the Goats.. He says "I NEVER knew you". They were never saved. I believe.. its those from the great tribulation. The NATIONS..

EDIT..sorry… not to change or highjack..

As for Paul... some YOUTUBE videos believers should not watch. And we should not be so easily deceived or moved

Jesus gave his teaching to unconverted Jews who were not filled with the Holy Spirit. He spoke to natural men and women and therefore gave His teaching on a natural, not a spiritual basis. Because they were not yet filled with the Spirit, the disciples could understand Jesus' teaching only with their natural minds, because the things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned by those who are living and walking in the Spirit.

Jesus told the disciples that there were many things they needed to learn which they could not take at present, but when the Holy Spirit has come, He will teach them all the things they need to know. I believe that Paul received revelation from the Holy Spirit to transform the teaching of Jesus, to enlarge on it, and transform it so it can be spiritually discerned by those filled with the Spirit.

Must of Jesus' teaching was to show the high standards of righteousness that folks needed to attain before being acceptable to God. He said that they needed to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees; and their righteousness was near to perfection in the natural.

It is the normal process of the preaching of the gospel that the standards as shown by the Law need to be strongly and assertive presented to sinners to bring them under conviction of their own sinfulness before God. Once they are convinced of their sin and hopelessness to be acceptable to God in themselves, then the good news that Jesus died on the cross to take away their sinfulness by being their substitute for sin - to take on Himself the full wrath of God for sin instead of them, causes the sinner to flee to Christ for pardon and cleansing, and to trust Him fully to work holiness, through the Holy Spirit, in him.

Therefore, the good works that ensue, are not the good works that are done through the believer's own efforts, but the workmanship of the Holy Spirit within him that causes the good works to flow out.

The trouble is with today's preaching of the gospel is that it is based on easy believerism and people are getting religion without having a clear appreciation of their own sinfulness in God's sight. They think they are pretty good folks who almost deserve to be saved and once having made a Christian profession, they carry on in their own efforts to live moral and religious lives, and actually end up being self-righteous, and actually still dead in their sins instead of having the righteousness of Christ. In fact they are trusting in their own moral uprightness, church attendance, and religious observances instead of Christ Himself.

I was reading the statement of purpose to see if it had changed. I notice that in this part of the forum that New Testament writers do not contradict each other or the teachings of Christ. Not sure if this changes in Controversial Theology or not.

JohnB445 said:

The ones who disagree with Paul just don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

They get their arguments from Muslims. to try to discredit Paul.

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The Muslim arguments are easy to refute.

It's those that come from another Christian, let alone, a long time Christian with extensive involvement in the mainstream denominations, a church leader/elder at one point.

Those are the ones that make you think....

But as usual, it is often misinterpretation of Paul's teachings the culprit. We even have quite specific proof of this in the Bible.

Neostarwcc said:

That makes sense. So what you're saying is Paul is talkinhmg about our justification and not our salvation? He's saying that a person who relies on faith is justified before God but they cannot be saved until they start walking in the good works that God has called them to do?

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Neo, my understanding is that salvation is a three-fold process. Justification, sanctification and glorification.

• Justification is Christ in us, being saved from the penalty of sin. Once and done. Forever. Can't be lost or taken away.
• Sanctification is becoming saved from the power of sin. An ongoing process that takes our whole lives to try to become like Jesus; indicated by our good works for the Lord. Also, what we are rewarded for at the Bema Seat judgment.
• Glorification is being saved from the presence of sin; being with the Lord in our resurrected, glorified, sinless bodies.

Virtually all soteriology confusion results from not understanding the difference between these three stages.

Others disagree.

Neostarwcc said:

When does our glorification happen? After Christ returns?

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"Christ returns" is not a precise term, especially in a forum where there is a general mix of preterists, amillennialists, and all the flavors of timing of the rapture, or even no rapture.

But, yes, when Christ returns for His bride, the church, is when we are snatched up to receive glorified bodies. The living. And the dead who are already with Christ as spirits, but who are reunited with glorified bodies from the grave. First and 2nd Thessalonians is all about that.

No Paul was not a heretic.

But it is easy to get things out of perspective when you read his work. Please remember that Paul did not have a collection of all his letters. You have them together in your Bible. Paul did not have a Bible like we do today. And when he wrote a letter, he sent it and it was gone. Therefore, it is unfair to do word-for-word comparisons in Paul's letters and then to say he had some inconsistencies. Any human being who is writing under those circumstances will have inconsistencies.

Remember too that Paul was writing under situations of great hardship. He was physically attacked, he was beaten senseless, he was disfigured by violence against him. So when you read his words, keep this in kind.

I find it best to read Paul's works in their entirety. Dont pull out isolated passages. Start reading from Acts, then read whole letters of Paul. You will get a much better sense of what he is saying.

The man was light years ahead of all of us. How could we dare to judge Paul, simply because we sit in the comfort of a living room, or a pulpit, and read his words? Have we walked in his footsteps?

We need to be humble.