Please explain if no one is predestined

Marvin Knox said:

But the fact from scripture is that
men do not and cannot believe
without God’s special grace
in opening their heart
(giving them a new heart).

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Yes, this is most obvious ...
many NT verses say this using different reasons.
But some here disagree.

Phoebe Ann said:

Where does faith come from? Some people have it and some don't.

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People are called to believe when they hear the gospel. Some choose to believe and some don’t.

Marvin Knox said:

No - He could easily choose before the foundation of the world those who will believe. Enough with your silly word games.

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Then why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of choosing whether they will believe or not? For example when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what must I do to be saved why would they tell him to believe if the jailer can’t believe if he’s not chosen and can’t fail to believe if he is chosen? Their reply should’ve been don’t worry about it you have no say in the matter.

Marvin Knox said:

Yes it is. No one can come to the Son unless drawn by the Father. God draws them by opening the hearts of certain men and not others.

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After the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. Another way to look at John 6 is no one can come to me until the father has drawn them. The word unless could be referring to those who have or have not yet been drawn.

BNR32FAN said:

After the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. Another way to look at John 6 is no one can come to me until the father has drawn them. The word unless could be referring to those who have or have not yet been drawn.

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Fair enough. I agree that the gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached and will be preached to all of the nations of the world. I agree that the gospel has the effect of convicting all men of sin and drawing all men who hear it to consider the truth of said gospel (i.e. the claims of Jesus Christ).

The point is that the examples given in scripture (Peter, Lydia, Paul, the jailer, the people present in Jerusalem at Pentecost, Cornelius etc.) all show special illumination that is not universally experienced by every person who is in earshot of the gospel.

BNR32FAN said:

Then why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of choosing whether they will believe or not?

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They may well not be able to understand the things of God. They may well have a propensity to refuse the offer of belief in the gospel. But, on the other hand, they may well have - being the recipients of the kind of grace that opens their eyes to truth (i.e. Lydia, Paul, the jailer, Cornelius, and Peter).

Time would and will tell in each individual case.

BNR32FAN said:

For example when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what must I do to be saved why would they tell him to believe if the jailer can’t believe if he’s not chosen and can’t fail to believe if he is chosen? Their reply should’ve been don’t worry about it you have no say in the matter.

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That's a big "if" there. Ours is not to determine the spiritual or intellectual ability of our neighbor to believe. Ours is to preach the gospel and let the Holy Spirit figure that out. No one can, after all, even say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

If God is able to bring everyone He draws in a special way to the Son to a saving decision - that's a good thing. We preach the gospel in obedience and let God have His way in the product of such preaching.

That's, IMO, the beauty of the way these things work. I don't have to beat myself over the head with shame for not adequately convincing my neighbor or relative of the truth of the gospel.

God is the one who has a certain number of people in every place whom He will convince by His Holy Spirit. We are but vehicles for the delivery of truth. He, Himself, is that truth.

The 19th century is known as the "great century" in terms of world evangelism - in many ways due in part to the colonial period - for all it's many faults. Of all the arenas opened across the world to the preaching of the gospel - almost every one was opened by groups or individuals who subscribed to these Reformed doctrines.

Knowledge of the sovereignty of God in the salvation of men is a freeing agent for evangelism. It is not, as so many falsely charge, a deterrent to the preaching of the gospel.

BNR32FAN said:

Then why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of choosing whether they will believe or not?

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I put to you the possibility of the following:
There are several spiritual Truths, which are
"somewhat hidden" from the eyes of new babes
in Christ, who are not yet ready to handle them.
These are only in need of positive encouragement.

Suppose election is one of these, which is taught
in Romans 9 and elsewhere, such as places where
the Lord has to give faith for one to believe.
A favorite is, "The Lord opened her heart to
heed the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).
Such verses are strongly in support of election.
But, the election of some over others is NOT popular.

Let us look at John 3:16, "... that whoever believes
in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
And just consider that the "whoever"s have been
elected and blessed with the ability to believe.
So, these are the ones mentioned in such verses.

Marvin Knox said:

Fair enough. I agree that the gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached and will be preached to all of the nations of the world. I agree that the gospel has the effect of convicting all men of sin and drawing all men who hear it to consider the truth of said gospel (i.e. the claims of Jesus Christ).

The point is that the examples given in scripture (Peter, Lydia, Paul, the jailer, the people present in Jerusalem at Pentecost, Cornelius etc.) all show special illumination that is not universally experienced by every person who is in earshot of the gospel.

They may well not be able to understand the things of God. They may well have a propensity to refuse the offer of belief in the gospel. But, on the other hand, they may well have - being the recipients of the kind of grace that opens their eyes to truth (i.e. Lydia, Paul, the jailer, Cornelius, and Peter).

Time would and will tell in each individual case.
That's a big "if" there. Ours is not to determine the spiritual or intellectual ability of our neighbor to believe. Ours is to preach the gospel and let the Holy Spirit figure that out. No one can, after all, even say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

If God is able to bring everyone He draws in a special way to the Son to a saving decision - that's a good thing. We preach the gospel in obedience and let God have His way in the product of such preaching.

That's, IMO, the beauty of the way these things work. I don't have to beat myself over the head with shame for not adequately convincing my neighbor or relative of the truth of the gospel.

God is the one who has a certain number of people in every place whom He will convince by His Holy Spirit. We are but vehicles for the delivery of truth. He, Himself, is that truth.

The 19th century is known as the "great century" in terms of world evangelism - in many ways due in part to the colonial period - for all it's many faults. Of all the arenas opened across the world to the preaching of the gospel - almost every one was opened by groups or individuals who subscribed to these Reformed doctrines.

Knowledge of the sovereignty of God in the salvation of men is a freeing agent for evangelism. It is not, as so many falsely charge, a deterrent to the preaching of the gospel.

Click to expand...

Bless you my friend, one thing I would like you to consider is Matthew 7:21-23. Did these people possess the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not then do you believe they were attempting to lie to Jesus about the miracles they performed in His name?

BNR32FAN said:

Bless you my friend, one thing I would like you to consider is Matthew 7:21-23. Did these people possess the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not then do you believe they were attempting to lie to Jesus about the miracles they performed in His name?

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If I may ...

These could very easily have been BACs who did
NOT do the will of Father God, but instead practiced
lawlessness! This is why Jesus disqualified them.
BACs who perform miracles can be in this group.

Just like the habitual sinners in Revelation 21:8
were disqualified and cast into the Lake of Fire.
These refer to everyone (BACs and non-believers both).

The will of the Father is that BACs overcome sin!
Habitual unrepentant sinners won't be allowed in heaven!

BCsenior said:

I put to you the possibility of the following:
There are several spiritual Truths, which are
"somewhat hidden" from the eyes of new babes
in Christ, who are not yet ready to handle them.
These are only in need of positive encouragement.

Suppose election is one of these, which is taught
in Romans 9 and elsewhere, such as places where
the Lord has to give faith for one to believe.
A favorite is, "The Lord opened her heart to
heed the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).
Such verses are strongly in support of election.
But, the election of some over others is NOT popular.

Let us look at John 3:16, "... that whoever believes
in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
And just consider that the "whoever"s have been
elected and blessed with the ability to believe.
So, these are the ones mentioned in such verses.

Click to expand...

Don’t forget Verses 17 and 18

“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:17-18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now why are they being judged again? Is it because they were not elected? Can they believe if they are not elected and if not then how can they be judged for something they are incapable of doing? Who’s fault is it that they cannot believe? Romans 9 is often a very misunderstood message. Verses 22-24 say much about what is actually being said.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

How did God endure much patience with the vessels of wrath but prepared beforehand (before creation) the vessels of mercy? How did God distinguish between the two? He foresaw who would be victorious and who would not. Hence the book of life was written before creation and the names written in the book were predestined (chosen beforehand) by his foreknowledge. Otherwise God would not have endured much patience with the vessels of wrath if He had appointed them to be so.

BCsenior said:

If I may ...

These could very easily have been BACs who did
NOT do the will of Father God, but instead practiced
lawlessness! This is why Jesus disqualified them.
BACs who perform miracles can be in this group.

Just like the habitual sinners in Revelation 21:8
were disqualified and cast into the Lake of Fire.
These refer to everyone (BACs and non-believers both).

The will of the Father is that BACs overcome sin!
Habitual unrepentant sinners won't be allowed in heaven!

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This is a confusing twist for someone who believes in God’s election. If they were elected how could they fall and if they weren’t how could they perform miracles?

BNR32FAN said:

Bless you my friend, one thing I would like you to consider is Matthew 7:21-23. Did these people possess the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not then do you believe they were attempting to lie to Jesus about the miracles they performed in His name?

Click to expand...

If they had ever possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ - 1 Peter 1:11; Romans 8:9 etc.) - they would have to be born again at some time.

Looking back at the position of some people here - it's important to note for them as well as you that those in the passage you refer to are people whom Jesus "never knew". Therefore they could not legitimately be said by any commentator to represent people who had ever been born again.

Having said that - there are several instances in the scriptures (both old and new - including the book of Revelation) where unbelievers and even the enemies of God do miracles.

[Staff edit].

Marvin Knox said: ↑
But the fact from scripture is that
men do not and cannot believe
without God’s special grace
in opening their heart
(giving them a new heart).

BCsenior said:

Yes, this is most obvious ...
many NT verses say this using different reasons.
But some here disagree.

Click to expand...

We disagree because the Bible disagrees with Marv's statement.

If a person cannot do something, are unable to do something, then it cannot be said that they can refuse to do something. Refusing isn't an option for someone who can't or is unable to do something.

It's like a person born without legs saying that he refuses to run.

And the Bible tells us plainly that men REFUSE to believe.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

Rev 16:9 - They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Rev 16:11 - and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Rev 2:21 - I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

Just like the legless man who cannot refuse to run, Jezebel cannot be unwilling to repent if she was unable to repent.

So Scripture teaches that all people are able to believe and repent, but some refuse and are unwilling to do so.

It's a choice they make.

The legless man cannot make the choice to not run. He simply can't.

If the legless man COULD run, then he could make the choice not to.

So, refusal demands ability to do what is being refused.

BCsenior said:

I put to you the possibility of the following:
There are several spiritual Truths, which are
"somewhat hidden" from the eyes of new babes
in Christ, who are not yet ready to handle them.
These are only in need of positive encouragement.

Suppose election is one of these, which is taught
in Romans 9 and elsewhere, such as places where
the Lord has to give faith for one to believe.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. Let's rather suppose that the Calvinists simply have it all wrong.

Post #54 lays out the doctrine of election and shows that God chooses (elects) people for service, including Judas the traitor, in John 6:70-71.

If that post is in error, please enlighten the thread and explain specifically how it is, and provide Scripture that supports your view, just as I've already done in that very post.

A favorite is, "The Lord opened her heart to
heed the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).
Such verses are strongly in support of election.
But, the election of some over others is NOT popular.

Click to expand...

This isn't even close to election.

Let us look at John 3:16, "... that whoever believes
in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
And just consider that the "whoever"s have been
elected and blessed with the ability to believe.

Click to expand...

Nonsense again. One is forced to view "the world" in v.16 as meaning "the world of the elect", which is just nonsense.

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Bless you my friend, one thing I would like you to consider is Matthew 7:21-23. Did these people possess the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not then do you believe they were attempting to lie to Jesus about the miracles they performed in His name?

BCsenior said:

If I may ...

These could very easily have been BACs who did
NOT do the will of Father God, but instead practiced
lawlessness! This is why Jesus disqualified them.
BACs who perform miracles can be in this group.

Click to expand...

What is being missed, in spite of the obviousness of Jesus' words, is v.23 - Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Two things are obvious here. The first one is that there was NO mention of faith in Christ in their appeal to entering the kingdom. Their appeal was based entirely on their works.

The second one is that Jesus addressed them and said "I never knew you". That alone proves that none of them ever had faith in Him.

How could Jesus say "never" to anyone that He had given the gift of eternal life to?

Simply impossible.

Just like the habitual sinners in Revelation 21:8
were disqualified and cast into the Lake of Fire.
These refer to everyone (BACs and non-believers both).

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No they don't. The first 2 items on the list are "cowardice and unbelief". Both refer to lack of faith. v.8 is a description of unbelievers, all the way.

btw, consider these 2 verses that what they infer:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Only those who NEVER believed will be condemned.

So, since Jesus told the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 that He NEVER knew them, you can be sure that they NEVER believed in Him.

The will of the Father is that BACs overcome sin!

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Absolutely! Also, the will of the Father is that all who believe in His Son HAVE eternal life. John 6:40

Habitual unrepentant sinners won't be allowed in heaven!

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Where's the verse?

Instead, the Bible teaches that those who NEVER BELIEVED will be condemned (never enter heaven).

Marvin Knox said:

If they had ever possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ - 1 Peter 1:11; Romans 8:9 etc.) - they would have to be born again at some time.

Looking back at the position of some people here - it's important to note for them as well as you that those in the passage you refer to are people whom Jesus "never knew". Therefore they could not legitimately be said by any commentator to represent people who had ever been born again.

Having said that - there are several instances in the scriptures (both old and new - including the Book of Revelation) where unbelievers and even the enemies of God do miracles.

Click to expand...

I agree that nonbelievers can perform miracles in Jesus’ name. Judas certainly did. As for receiving the Holy Spirit I think the evidence is inconclusive. Just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily mean they do the will of God. Romans 11 says that branches that are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again and Ephesians 5 Paul warns children of God of receiving God’s wrath intended for the sons of disobedience. The thing is just because someone has received the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they have lost their free will and cannot lose their salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Paul says do not quench (extinguish) the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we might wake to find ourselves way off course or even worse shipwrecked.

BNR32FAN said:

If they were elected how could they fall and if they weren’t how could they perform miracles?

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The elected can use their free will to fall.
Non-elect demons can perform miracles.

BCsenior said:

The elected can use their free will to fall.

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They can cease to believe (fall from the faith), but they can't fall out of God's hand. Because Jesus said so in John 10:28,29.

Non-elect demons can perform miracles.

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Where do you get your opinions from? Obviously not the Bible.

BNR32FAN said:

Just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily mean they do the will of God.

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Your whole post is obvious from the NT's point of view!
However, people who do NOT receive spiritual Truth
(for whatever reason) can rationalize their way out
of a steel vault, which has walls 3 feet thick.
How can such as these have the Holy Spirit,
and NOT hear His voice of spiritual Truth?
He came to teach BACs "all (spiritual) things"
(John 14:26).

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily mean they do the will of God.
[Staff edit].

How can such as these have the Holy Spirit,
and NOT hear His voice of spiritual Truth?

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This question clearly demonstrates an ignorance about the Holy Spirit. He indwells every believer, but the Bible commands that believers be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

[Staff edit]. The Bible commands believers to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). These are the reasons that believers, indwelt with the Spirit do not do the will of God.

The Christian life is a supernatural life, and can only be lived when filled with the Spirit. It is sad how many believers have no idea about this.

[Staff edit].

Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Arminians will hyper-focus on "sins have separated you from God" as loss of salvation, but ignore the fact that sins, which highly offend God, separate the sinful believer from fellowship with God, and the result is that God doesn't hear believers out of fellowship and are in need of forgiveness and cleansing, per 1 John 1:9. That's HOW a believer restores fellowship.

He came to teach BACs "all (spiritual) things"
(John 14:26).

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And Jesus gives all BACs the indwelling Holy Spirit, in order for BACs to be teachable.

But, the BACs MUST be in fellowship. That means they need to "keep short accounts" by confession of sin, which brings forgiveness and cleansing.

Then, and only then, is the BAC even able to be filled with the Holy Spirit. However, since the BACs are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, and to talk by the Spirit (Gal 5:16), it's clearly not automatic. The BAC must ask for it. That's what is meant by submitting to the Spirit, or yielding to the Spirit.

Since being filled with the Holy Spirit is a command, it should be obvious that it is God's WILL that all BACs are filled with the Spirit.

So, let's look at how to pray and what to pray for.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 John 5:14,15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, sin separates the BAC from God, meaning loss of fellowship and God doesn't hear BACs who are out of fellowship.

So confession MUST precede asking God for the filling of the Holy Spirit.

The filling of the Holy Spirit is the Power Source for living the Christian life. When a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, they CANNOT sin. It's that simple.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption.

So, even in the severity of grieving the Spirit, Paul STILL notes that the BAC is sealed for the day of redemption. Sure doesn't say anything about losing salvation. Nor condemnation for the guilt of grieving God the Holy Spirit.

Yet, Arminians seem to believe that sin causes spiritual death and permanent separation from God.

Spiritual discernment is possible only for BACs who are in fellowship and filled with the Spirit.

BCsenior said:

Your whole post is obvious from the NT's point of view!
However, people who do NOT receive spiritual Truth
(for whatever reason) can rationalize their way out
of a steel vault, which has walls 3 feet thick.
How can such as these have the Holy Spirit,
and NOT hear His voice of spiritual Truth?
He came to teach BACs "all (spiritual) things"
(John 14:26).

Click to expand...

It’s not a matter of not hearing it can be as a result of a lot of reasons. Complacency, laziness, unwillingness, disobedience, rebellion, desire of acceptance by unbelievers or persecution. These are just a few. One thing that is clear is the Holy Spirit is always faithful to do His part in providing the guidance leading the person to the right path.