For those who are amillennial

worshipjunkie

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.
 

Gregory Thompson

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.
I believe in Christ's Return
I believe that the antithesis of Christ will probably have the name Jesus but teach to do the opposite
I believe in the resurrection
 
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HTacianas

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.

I believe the period of tribulation already happened.
I believe what the bible says about the antichrist, mainly "even now there are many antichrists".
I don't believe in the rapture in the modern day protestant usage of the term. I see no reason to believe in it. It is not in the bible nor can any mention of it be found anywhere in Church history.
 
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Dave L

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.
I'm Amillennial but view the church as the body of Christ and not as an institution which is traditionally the case. That said, The Great Tribulation was Jewish only. And came about with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Christians on the other hand, are encompassed with great tribulation for the entire New Covenant era. So there is no 7 year tribulation in the future as Dispensationalists teach.

According to Paul and Jesus, the rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17; John 11:24; also Matthew 13:40–43.

The Antichrist is past present and future. Revelation symbolizes him as any totalitarian regime that punishes those who do not conform to sinful laws in place of God's law. Many believe Nero, the Papacy, and Islam are the Antichrist when you examine the history of each.
 
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claninja

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?

I view scripture through a preterist lense, and would say yes, the great tribulation occurs prior to the coming of Christ. As we can see, "immediately after" the great tribulation of Jerusalem, the parousia would occur. Jesus even states "this generation", which I would argue is the generation standing in front of him, would not pass away until all the things in the olivet discourse occurred.

Matthew 21:24 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?

I believe the spirit of the antichrist was around in the 1st century:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

I believe the beast of revelation and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the same entity as BOTH blaspheme God and persecute the saints for "3.5 months".

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

And Just as the beast is multiple entities (7 heads/kings and 10 horns/kings) and yet one entity (the beast is an 8th), so to I believe the little horn of Daniel 7 is 1 entity and yet multiple entities through working of the spirit of the antichrist by the power of Satan.
Revelation 17:10-12 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast

It was prophesied that there would be enmity between the seeds of the devil and the seed of the woman
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.

We can see this enmity between the unbelieving Jews and Jesus
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies

This same enmity continued between the Jews and the apostles
Acts 13:6, 10 They traveled through the whole island as far as Paphos, where they found a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus. and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness!

Jesus states the kingdom would be taken away from unfaithful Israel when vineyard owner COMES. Once it is taken away from them, it is given to the saints.
Matthew 21:40-41,43-44 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Notice when the kingdom is taken away from the little horn (multiple entities and yet 1 entity), it is given to the saints. This matches with what Jesus said in matthew 21 (kingdom taken away from unfaithful Israel and given to the saints.).

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.

this occurred during the destruction of Jerusalem, just as predicted by Christ in 70 AD during the 10th roman emporer (Vespasian), when Israel tried to become and independent nation during the Jewish Roman war

**Maybe it's just coincidence, but there were 10 horns on the beast from Daniel 7 leading up to the kingdom going to the saints at the destruction of the little horn. There were 10 roman emperors leading up to the kingdom going to the saints at the destruction of Jerusalem.



Do any of you believe in the rapture?

There is no mention of a pretrib rapture anywhere in scripture. There is only mention of escaping the tribulation by fleeing to the mountains:

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I believe the resurrection of the dead occurs with Christ's parousia. After that those who are alive are caught up to God.

1 thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
 
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Christian Gedge

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worshipjunkie said:
Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Amil/Prets will say that the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 was the 'Great Tribulation'.' Amils like me say there have been tribulations throughout the church era but the last one will be the worst.

worshipjunkie said:
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Again, there have been antichrists throughout the church era but the last one will be the worst.

worshipjunkie said:
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

Yes, but I see it as a subset of the resurrection.
 
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mkgal1

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I agree with what Anthony Hoekema has written (quoted below).

Some Implications of Amillennial Eschatology


What, in conclusion, are some of the implications of amillennial eschatology for our theological understanding? Let me mention four of them:

1. What binds the Old and New Testaments together is the unity of the covenant of grace. Amillennialists do not believe that sacred history is to be divided into a series of distinct and disparate dispensations but see a single covenant of grace running through all of that history. This covenant of grace is still in effect today and will culminate in the eternal dwelling together of God and his redeemed people on the new earth.

2. The kingdom of God is central in human history. That kingdom was predicted and prepared for in Old Testament times, was established on earth by Jesus Christ, was extended and expanded both in New Testament times and during the subsequent history of the church, and will finally be consummated in the life to come.

3. Jesus Christ is the Lord of history. This means that all of history is under Christ’s control and will ultimately prove to have been subservient to his purpose. We must therefore be concerned not just with enjoying the blessings of our salvation but also with joyfully serving Christ as Lord in every area of our lives.​

4. All of history is moving toward a goal: the total redemption of the universe. History is not meaningless but meaningful. Though we are not always able to discern the meaning of each historical event, we know what the ultimate outcome of history will be. We eagerly look forward to the new earth as part of a renewed universe in which God’s good creation will realize finally and totally the purpose for which he called it into existence: the glorification of his name.

All this implies that regarding world history, amillennialists adopt a position of sober or realistic optimism. Belief in the present rule of Christ, in the presence of God’s kingdom and in the movement of history toward its goal is accompanied by a realistic recognition of the presence of sin in this world and of the growing development of the kingdom of evil.​

Yet, since we know that the victory of Christ over evil was decisive and that Christ is now on the throne, the dominant mood of amillennial eschatology is optimism — Christian optimism. This means that we view no world crisis as totally beyond help and no social trend as absolutely irreversible. It means that we live in hope — a hope that is built on faith and that expresses itself in love.

Amillennial eschatology, therefore, gives us a realistic, yet basically optimistic world-and-life view. It is an eschatology which is exciting, exhilarating and challenging. It is an eschatology which gives us an inspiring vision of the lordship of Christ over history and of the ultimate triumph of his kingdom. ~ "Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

Another publication on Amillenialism/Inaugurated eschatology is Making All Things New
http://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com...es/files/Excerpt_9780801049606.pdf?1453997989

One thing I don't agree with is Beale's meaning of "this age" and the "age to come". He has it charted like this:
three-ages-c.jpg


I believe that division is between the Old Covenant/Temple system ("this age" to the authors of the New Testament) and time after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (the "age to come" - New Testament consummation and the "new temple" in the Body of Christ).

As it is with all systems of theology - it's difficult to fit all of our personal beliefs into one box.

 
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The Righterzpen

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.

I believe the "great tribulation" happened as part of the atonement. (Here's why.)

Daniel 9:27 talks about "confirming the covenant for one week.... in the middle of the week the Messiah is cut off...."

John 12:1 "6 days before the Passover" Jesus comes to Bethany. Mary anoints His feet with oil. This is the Friday, a week before the crucifixion.

Matthew 24:22 Jesus says "except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved". This I think is a "time clue" to us. Now - when was "flesh saved"? That has to do with the atonement. The "final resurrection" is already a "done deal" in one respect. (But don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying it's happened already.)

I say it's a "done deal" from a redemptive standpoint. Jesus is the King currently reigning. He proved that when He rose from the dead. Ephesians 1:20-21 tell us when Jesus "began to reign". From the point of His resurrection commences the "millennial reign".

Now if the "great tribulation" ran it's full week. It would have ended the day of the crucifixion. It was "cut short" though. When was it "cut short", how and why?

The answer to that question, has to do with the angel that came to Jesus on the passover. (Luke 22:43) The English translation says "strengthening him"; but the Greek means "show of strength before (or against)".

Now go back to Exodus. What angel passes through the land on the Passover? (The angel of death). What does the angel of death do? (Kills the first born.) How does the angel of death do that? (This can be done simply by removing the breath of life; because it's the breath of life that makes men "living souls". The breath of life actually exists in all carbon based life forms. As soon as the breath of life is taken, the organism dies.)

Jesus is confronted by an angel at midnight on the Passover - so... what-da-ya conclude that angel is? (The angel of death.) But wait a minute? Jesus isn't dead. Why is He not dead and what did this angel do to Him?

Jesus does not die because He possesses a Divine nature. Removing the breath of life, consigns Jesus's soul to Sheol. This is where He "preaches to the spirits in prison". (1 Peter 3:19) His soul was not left in Sheol (Acts 2:31)

Note that after this angel leaves. Jesus goes from a state of "exceeding sorrowful" and psychologically afflicted, to totally emotionless. His cognition is still intact and He's morally still intact. He answers questions, speaks to people, speaks to the Father etc. from the point of arrest until He dies; but there's no more crying, no more pleading "may this cup pass from me" etc.

Now why would this have to happen to Jesus or "no flesh would be saved"? The answer to that comes out of Jeremiah 25:16. This "cup" of the "wrath of God" will cause the nations to "shake" and "go mad". I believe that the angel of death consigned Jesus's soul to Sheol to prevent Him from becoming psychotic on account of enduring wrath. (Psychosis most simply defined in psychology speak is to loose touch with reality.) Which this was entirely possible because of Jesus's human nature. Human beings are fragile and we all have a point where we "break".

Now Jesus "set his face as flint" being so determined to accomplish this "atonement thing" because He wanted the will of the Father to be done. Yet if we understand even just a little about how Jesus is "constructed"; we get a better understanding of His suffering. Here He is with His own Divine nature, in constant communion with these two other persons of the Godhead. In the process of atonement though, He is forsaken by these two other persons and eventually has His own Divinity torn from him. And this is ultimately what I think killed Jesus; seeing how one of the attributes of "Divinity" itself is immortality. That is torn from him and the only possible outcome is that he dies; because this totally destroyed what he was created as.

Now imagine that happening to you as a believer? I don't think any of us would survive having the Holy Spirit torn from our existence.

The other thing I think the "angel of death" did was to chain Satan in the bottomless pit. (Revelation 20:1-3) This act restrained the nations that Jesus's ordeal would not be of a vindictive or sadistic nature. This is why Luke 21:25 talks about "the distress of nations with perplexity". The nations are "restrained" and they are in a mental quandary over this.

3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth:
This commences Tuesday afternoon after Jesus leaves the temple. This is also the time Satan is cast out of heaven. (John 12:31) Jesus goes to Bethany to the house of Simon the Leper to have dinner. While they are eating, an anonymous woman pours oil on His head. He says: "She's done this for my burial." This commences the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth and also marks the "middle of the week" in Daniel 9 when the "Messiah is cut off". After sundown Tuesday marks the beginning of Wednesday. (Thus the "middle of the week".) Exactly 3 - 24 hour periods later, Jesus is dead.

Day of crucifixion:
"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
"I thirst" (seeing all things are accomplished - John 19:28)
"It is finished" (John 19:30)

Jesus dies. His soul is released from Sheol and his human spirit leaves his body and he ascends to heaven to stand before the Father as the "lamb that was slain" to open the seals. (Revelation 5)

A great multitude "those who've come out of great tribulation" appear with him. (Revelation 7:14)

"immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...." (Matthew 24:29) This happened between noon and 3 PM on the day of the crucifixion.

"And they shall see the sign of the son of man in heaven, coming on the clouds of glory.... and all the nations of the earth shall mourn..." (Matthew 24:30)

Note - This is not about Jesus second coming - it is about His ascension to heaven at the point that He died!

Pay very close attention - this is what's being seen "in heaven"!

"The nations of the earth mourn..." Why? Jesus's soul is delivered from Sheol and He takes all those He's atoned for on the Old Testament side of the cross with Him. Those who remain in Sheol understand at that point that their damnation is sealed! This is why they mourn.

Now how much awareness do those who are living on earth at the time have of what's going on in the realm that they can not see? Good question?

The veil of the temple is torn. The centurion and soldiers witness this from the site of the crucifixion. (Matthew 27:54) In order for them to see this, they had to be east of the temple; which means Jesus was crucified on the Mount of Olives.

"This generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled." (Matthew 24:34) Note - from verse 35 on, Jesus starts talking about the destruction of the cosmos. "heaven and earth will pass away... but of that hour (that heaven and earth will pass away) no one knows...." At least at that point no one knew. I believe that by the time Jesus rose from the dead, He knew when the end of time would be. He knew the time table. He knew the clock.

Does God reveal the timing of the end as we get closer to it? I think that is a distinct possibility for the generation that will be alive when the end comes. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 "... you are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief." Revelation 10:7 "the mystery of God should be finished as He has declared to His servants the prophets."

So yes, I believe information about when the end will be is actually in the book. Now how many of us figure it out? That's another question?

Do I believe in the rise of the anti-christ?

Um.. "yes" and "no". The "son of perdition" was Judas Iscariot. The Scripture tells us that. (John 17:12)

Daniel 11 and 12 do seem to indicate though that there is a "king" who arises at the end who "sets his tents between the seas and the holy mountain" and "turns away nations and one will not stand with him"; as well as a "time of trouble" "since there was a nation".

What does that mean? I'm not sure I know; but I think the attempts at setting up a false system in a false nation "since there was a nation" (hint?) could play out in the next 10 to 12 years. I don't think this "king" or the false system will be obvious to most of the world. It won't be as the dispensationalists say it is. (That's too obvious. LOL) Does the religion of a particular nation label unto itself a "messiah" / erect a "temple" etc.? I don't know? I tend to lean toward the notion that the end will come before they "get that far".

This "king" who sets his tents "between the seas" and the "holy mountain". "Holy mountain" I believe is the eternal body of Christ - i.e. saints still alive on earth. "Between the seas"? Is that a reference to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans? He "turns away nations and one will not stand with him." Want to know who rules over you; find out who you can't criticize. (What's the need to pass legislation to this end? Compare the "west" to the rest of the world on this one.)

Ehhh.... know anything about the global banking system? Heard of Q; the "deep state"? Any of this look like the beast of Revelation 13? Which by the way I think had its origins probably starting with the golden calf incident back in the days of Moses. It was certainly in existence by the point of the return from the babylonian captivity.

Revelation also talks about Satan being loosed at the end of time to "deceive the nations once more".

Do I believe in the "rapture"?

Not as the dispensationalist view. The Scripture is pretty clear. The "rapture" coincides with Judgement Day and the destruction of this cosmos.



 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.
Hello.
I am Partial/Idealist/Covenantle/Amill Preterist.
You can view threads that I currently have to see my view:

https://www.christianforums.com/search/38937510/


Here is a popular site that is a sort of "1 stop shopping" for the plethora of views concerning the end-times

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html

STUDY TOPICS
STUDY ARCHIVES:
Amillennialism | Apocalyptic | Christian Zionism | Dispensationalism | Eschatology | Hermeneutics | Historicism | Idealism | Millennial Reign of Christ | Preterism | New Covenant Theology | Postmillennialism | Premillennialism | Pre-Tribulational Rapture | Reconstructionism | "Seventy Weeks" | Parousia | Universalism | J.N. Darby | Jerry Falwell | Thomas Ice| Tim LaHaye | Hal Lindsey | C.I. Scofield | Jack and Rexella Van Impe | John F. Walvoord | Christian Zionism and Salvation for the Jews | Philip Mauro: The Gospel of the Kingdom & The Hope of Israel


https://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html
PARTIAL PRETERISM STUDY ARCHIVE
CLICK HERE FOR UPDATED WEBSITE
============================

 
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The Righterzpen

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I view scripture through a preterist lense, and would say yes, the great tribulation occurs prior to the coming of Christ. As we can see, "immediately after" the great tribulation of Jerusalem, the parousia would occur. Jesus even states "this generation", which I would argue is the generation standing in front of him, would not pass away until all the things in the olivet discourse occurred.

Matthew 21:24 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened



I believe the spirit of the antichrist was around in the 1st century:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

I believe the beast of revelation and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the same entity as BOTH blaspheme God and persecute the saints for "3.5 months".

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

And Just as the beast is multiple entities (7 heads/kings and 10 horns/kings) and yet one entity (the beast is an 8th), so to I believe the little horn of Daniel 7 is 1 entity and yet multiple entities through working of the spirit of the antichrist by the power of Satan.
Revelation 17:10-12 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast

It was prophesied that there would be enmity between the seeds of the devil and the seed of the woman
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.

We can see this enmity between the unbelieving Jews and Jesus
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies

This same enmity continued between the Jews and the apostles
Acts 13:6, 10 They traveled through the whole island as far as Paphos, where they found a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus. and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness!

Jesus states the kingdom would be taken away from unfaithful Israel when vineyard owner COMES. Once it is taken away from them, it is given to the saints.
Matthew 21:40-41,43-44 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Notice when the kingdom is taken away from the little horn (multiple entities and yet 1 entity), it is given to the saints. This matches with what Jesus said in matthew 21 (kingdom taken away from unfaithful Israel and given to the saints.).

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.

this occurred during the destruction of Jerusalem, just as predicted by Christ in 70 AD during the 10th roman emporer (Vespasian), when Israel tried to become and independent nation during the Jewish Roman war

**Maybe it's just coincidence, but there were 10 horns on the beast from Daniel 7 leading up to the kingdom going to the saints at the destruction of the little horn. There were 10 roman emperors leading up to the kingdom going to the saints at the destruction of Jerusalem.





There is no mention of a pretrib rapture anywhere in scripture. There is only mention of escaping the tribulation by fleeing to the mountains:

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I believe the resurrection of the dead occurs with Christ's parousia. After that those who are alive are caught up to God.

1 thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Got some good verses here! :oldthumbsup:

I looked up 1 John 2:18
Had to do a little bit of historical research to see when it was written. It's traditionally dated between 85 and 110 AD and assumed to be written to believers in Ephesus who are familiar with John. (They know him / he knows them.) Contextually as well as historically speaking; this dating seems logical and reasonable.

I looked up the phrase.... "you have heard that the antichrist shall come".
In all the grammatical notations I looked up. It is present tense. (Present indicative active) Which means this has / is true at the time the speaker is addressing the audience. Also, there is no "article / noun" arrangement in the Greek. So it's not "the antichrist" it's simply "antichrist".

"...you have heard antichrist is come.."

Now if "antichrist" here is referring to "son of perdition"? - we already have the answer to that one. (John 17:12 = Judas Iscariot)

Now I also looked up "last hour".
"Hour" is described in one of the dictionaries as "definitive space or division of time occurring in fixed intervals". Obviously 1900 years later, John is not talking about the "last hour" just before Christ's return. He's talking about the "final hour" of a specific series of events.

Now if he's addressing the "bitter end" of the Jewish nation. We know this is likely penned post temple destruction; if it's earliest presumed date is 85 AD. The last Herod of the Herodian line died in 93 AD. And the death of the final Herod I believe is what the Scripture is referring to as the closing out of the Old Testament system.

I also looked up Daniel 7
Now I'm glad you mentioned Daniel 7 because there are some things in that passage that I had not caught before.

Verse 2 = 4 winds strive upon the great sea.
Matthew 24:31 - "gather together His elect from the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other."
Mark 13:27 - "4 winds from the uttermost part of earth, to uttermost part of heaven"

These I think are referring to both happenings in the spiritual realm and happenings on earth. Those collected from Sheol who ascended with Jesus when He died; covering from that point through the entire New Testament age until the destruction of the cosmos.

Verse 4 - Lion beast
Verse 5 - Bear beast
Verse 6 - Leopard beast
Verse 7 - different from any other beast.. beast

(Revelation 13 beast has: leopard's body, bear feet, lion's mouth. vs. 2)
(There's a "lion beast" in heaven praising God. Revelation 4:7)

Daniel's beast has 10 horns. 3 horns come before 4th horn, who boasts great things.

4th horn: This horn speaks great things against God. "Interesting coincidence" or prophetic fulfillment? The 4th Herod to reign is the Herod who's responsible for both John the Baptist's death, and Jesus. (Note - he's the 4th horn too!) Acts 12:21-23. He's stuck down by God for not giving God the glory when the people refer to him as a god.

Now jump over to Revelation.
There are 7 kings; "5 are fallen, one is and one is yet to come". I think this gives us a "time clue" as to when Revelation was written. The 6th Herod is reigning. (There are 7 Herods who reign altogether in a 130 year span. This beast in Revelation has 7 heads.) (Revelation 17:10) If I'm correct about these kings and the time frame; this would date the writing of the book of Revelation before 44 AD. That's very early. Most say the Apostle John wrote Revelation. Scholars note quite a difference in the grammatical style of Revelation compared to the gospel. So could it have been John Mark who wrote Revelation? (I don't know.)

Herod the Great - 37 BC - 4 BC
Herod Archelaus - 4 BC - 6 AD
Philip the Tetrarch - 4 BC - 34 AD
Herod Antipas - 4 BC - 39 AD (Beheads John, crucifies Jesus, dies in Acts)
Herod Agrippa 1 - 37 AD to 44 AD
Herod Agrippa II - 48 AD to 92/93 AD

Back to Daniel 7

Verse 13 - Jesus comes to the Father upon his death. (Revelation 5:6)
Verse 14 - Millennial kingdom is set up upon resurrection (Ephesians 1:17-22)
Verse 17 - 4 beasts are 4 kings who arise out of the earth.
(2nd beast in Revelation 13 arises out of the earth, but has lambs horns and speaks like a dragon)

Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 has 3 empires before these kings in the 1st beast of Revelation 13 show up.

Babylonian
Mede / Persian
Greek
(Herods / political empire is Rome)

Today within the boundaries of what had been these empires are 10 nations.

Revelation 17:12 speaks of these 10 horns as 10 kings who don't have their kingdom yet. I looked up the term "not yet". It is not "future tense" but by structure (comes from two Greek words "not" and "yet / even") indicate something that has not occurred. So, I would conclude based on when Revelation was written and this phrase "not yet"; these ten crowns are not talking about Roman emperors.

Yet, these are the same nations mentioned in Acts when the Holy Spirit is poured out.

Acts 2:

9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, (Iran) and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, (Iraq) and in Judaea, (Palestine) and Cappadocia, in Pontus, (Turkey) and (Asia),

10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in (Egypt), and in the parts of (Libya) about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, (Italy) Jews and proselytes,

11. Cretes (Greece) and (Arabians), we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This doesn't seem to me to be mere coincidence.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Jesus states the kingdom would be taken away from unfaithful Israel when vineyard owner COMES. Once it is taken away from them, it is given to the saints.
Matthew 21:40-41,43-44 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”


I think you're right here: Here is another passage that parallels this one.

"Dispensation" in the Greek literally means "house steward"


Luke 16 - "dispensation" is used in a parable about an unfaithful servant. Now this parable is interesting because this servant is afraid that the Lord is going to take his stewardship (dispensation) away. He is the steward of the house at current; but he's about to be replaced by someone else.

1. And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy dispensation; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the dispensation:I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the dispensation, they may receive me into their houses.

5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much do you owe to my lord?

6 And he said, A hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take your bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.

7 Then said he to another, And how much do you owe? And he said, A hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take your bill, and write fourscore.

8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

18 Whosoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whosoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery.

So what does this mean? The "dispensation" (stewardship) of the household of God passed from Old Testament to New Testament. Note it's the same household; it's just something different has come into play here, so therefore the steward is replaced.

Note verse 9. Jesus is talking to his disciples. He tells them "make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness FOR WHEN YOU FAIL, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

So, who did the 12 primarily preach to post resurrection? Remember Peter was the "apostle to the circumcision". Who was the "apostle to the uncircumcision" (Paul). What happened when the Old Testament system was dismantled? Who absorbed the Jewish believers? (The gentile believers.)

Now what do you suppose the "unrighteous mammon" was as it related to the Old Testament system? The "shadow of things to come". The animal sacrifice system that was about to be dismantled. It was a theocratic political / social system. And because the kingdom of God is not of this world; this is why that system was dismantled.

Note verses 16-18. The law and the prophets were up until John: since that time (the point John came on the scene preaching "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". Both John and Jesus use the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of heaven" interchangeably.) Yet since John, the kingdom is preached. And EVERY man presses into it.

It's easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Note that after this; Jesus makes this statement about divorce. Why do you suppose he throws that in here? Because God is "divorcing" Himself from that system. Note the law is still "in effect" because it is what condemns those under it for their sin. (We are all condemned by the moral law; thus the reason we need the Redeemer in the first place.)

So if you "pick up" that system again; you are committing adultery against God with a system He has divorced. Now the first part of that phrase; did God put away His "wife" - the elect? No He didn't. Those who believed, regardless of what side of the cross they lived on, remained attached to Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:17 - 18 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, the stewardship of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Those who "stewarded" the Old Testament system were supported by it. This is the point about unrighteous greed (And also the point Paul made about having a means of support outside of the church. I.E. Paul made tents for a living.)

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the stewardship of the fulness (sum up) of times (plural - two times - probably 2000 years), He might gather together in one - all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:"

Ephesians 3:2 "If you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which is given me toward you." (Verse 1 - he is addressing gentiles.)

Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the stewardship of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;"

1 Timothy 1:4 "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than Godly stewardship which is in faith: so do."

All these verses "the stewardship" (article noun); it's one stewardship that has been transmitted now to a different steward. Paul, being named "the steward" as he who's penned a good chunk of the New Testament. Paul was in the best position to do this because of his education of Old Testament Judaism; having been a Pharisee. Peter and the rest of the 12 were obviously familiar with Judaism, as having lived under its jurisdiction; but Paul was the one who had the educational background to pull all these Scriptures together to be able to explain the Old Testament through the lens of the New.

This fits right in with Daniel 7:26-27
 
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BABerean2

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?
Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?
Do any of you believe in the rapture?

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.

The following is my understanding.
It is the best explanation of Revelation chapter 20 that I have ever seen.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.


 
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FireDragon76

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Do you still believe in a great period of tribulation before Christ's return?

Not really.

Do you believe in the rise of the antichrist?

As a distinct, singular historical figure? No.

Do any of you believe in the rapture?

As dispensationalists believe it? No.

I would consider my beliefs amillennial/partial preterist, but at least those first two seems pretty clear in Scripture and I'm wondering what others think. I'm not looking to debate dispensationalists.

Lutherans don't have detailed eschatologies. The Kingdom of God wins. That's about all we need to know.
 
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