Should the Church Auto-Anathematize Child Abusers who have Not Confessed in Secular Courts?

Markie Boy · Feb 26, 2019

1 Corinthians ch. 5 tells us to worry about those inside the Church - God will judge those outside the Church.

Yes - we should anathematize them. We should include all those that support the horrible pro-abortion movement as well, thinking that supporting that is an acceptable compromise to get better "social justice". As if someone that's good with infanticide has a good heart to care for people...………….

chevyontheriver · Feb 26, 2019

StevenMerten said:
Christ's Church needs to enact a world wide, binding on all, auto-anathema, upon any child abuser who has not yet confessed his crimes to secular prosecutors and secular courts.

No. The Church ought not AUTO-anathematize anyone. The Church ought to have excommunication trials and excommunicate those who sexually abuse children OR ADULTS or otherwise seriously and repeatedly and publicly and unrepentantly violate chastity.

What good is an auto-anathema to someone who ignores it and continues on living as they were? No good at all.

Hank77 · Feb 26, 2019

StevenMerten said:
Hello Hank,
Go ahead and vote. Jesus authorized St. Peter and His Successors with unequaled Power, to bind and loost sins, over all His followers, and all people on earth.

I voted, No.

dzheremi · Feb 26, 2019

Anathematization can be warranted, of course, but is auto-anathematization an actual thing? That seems bad. Even Arius wasn't automatically anathematized.

StevenMerten · Feb 26, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
No. The Church ought not AUTO-anathematize anyone. The Church ought to have excommunication trials and excommunicate those who sexually abuse children OR ADULTS or otherwise seriously and repeatedly and publicly and unrepentantly violate chastity.

What good is an auto-anathema to someone who ignores it and continues on living as they were? No good at all.

Hello Chevy,
Well, with an auto-anathema in place, a child who is being raped can tell the priest or other sexual offender, 'You are going to have to report this to the state prosecutor, or you go to hell. Your Bishop cant help you, by loosing your excommunication trial papers, now! I have Jesus' Justice protecting me now!'

Mark_Sam · Feb 26, 2019

StevenMerten said:
Well, with an auto-anathema in place, a child who is being raped can tell the priest or other sexual offender, 'You are going to have to report this to the state prosecutor, or you go to hell. Your Bishop cant help you, by loosing your excommunication trial papers, now! I have Jesus' Justice protecting me now!'

An anathema is not a sentence to Hell, it 'merely' means that the offender is excluded from the society of faithful, until they repent (as opposed to excommunication, which means only exclusion from the Sacraments). And if an offender is already so deep in sin that they commit the heinous sin of rape and abuse, I doubt an anathema will make them change their mind.

The victim is already protected by the justice of our Lord. As the offender has committed a mortal sin, unless they repent, they will meet damnation. That is the clear teaching of the Gospel.

A system of auto-anathemas would not only complicate Canon Law further, but also make the Church look weak - as if our only weapon against these rapists is waving our finger and saying "you're not allowed to come to Church anymore". Mind you, there is no 'Vatican police force' upholding Church rulings. And excommunications laetae sententiae are only enforced by the conscience of the one excommunicated laete sententiae.

A proper tribunal can in some sense actually enforce its sentences, and be much more effective that way, i.e. actually kicking people out of Church after a fair trial, defrocking etc.

I believe that you have good intentions, and I understand where you come from. But suggesting implementing a system of automatic anathemas frankly just show an incorrect understanding of Canon Law.

StevenMerten · Feb 26, 2019

Mark_Sam said:
An anathema is not a sentence to Hell, it 'merely' means that the offender is excluded from the society of faithful, until they repent (as opposed to excommunication, which means only exclusion from the Sacraments). And if an offender is already so deep in sin that they commit the heinous sin of rape and abuse, I doubt an anathema will make them change their mind.

Hello Mark,
Anathema: 'we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate', 'may he be damned at the coming of the Lord', 'but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"

You misunderstand anathema. Anathema is where a Pope calls upon Jesus to bind an evildoer to their sin, as Jesus Promised He would so, and thus eternal damnation. Excommunication, on the other hand is simply asking Catholics to ostracize a fellow Catholic.

Anathema

..."To understand the word anathema", says Vigouroux, "we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of."...
...but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"....
..."Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."...
..."If, after having been deposed from office, he is incorrigible, he should first be excommunicated; but if he perseveres in his contumacy he should be stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss, he reaches the point where he despises these penalties, he should be given over to the secular arm."...
...In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his miter, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

Mark_Sam · Feb 26, 2019

StevenMerten said:
You misunderstand anathema. Anathema is where a Pope calls upon Jesus to bind an evildoer to their sin, as Jesus Promised He would so, and thus eternal damnation. Excommunication, on the other hand is simply asking Catholics to ostracize a fellow Catholic.

Again, an urepentant sinner is already facing damnation, unless he repent. The anathema was the cutting off from Christian society and from the Sacraments. And it was a medicinal or remedial punishment, meant to make the sinner repent. The Church does not have the power to damn anyone - only God can. Or rather, it is only the sinner who damns himself. But the Church can 'loose and bind' (forgive or withhold forgiveness, give access to and exclude from the Sacraments or Christian society).

StevenMerten said:
'we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate', 'may he be damned at the coming of the Lord', 'but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"

The word "we judge" (judicamus) could very well mean "we consider him, treat him, regard him as condemned", as the verb judicio has a wider meaning in Latin than in English. But I cannot be sure without consulting canonical sources on this. The Church can loose and bind, but not damn someone to Hell.

chevyontheriver · Feb 26, 2019

StevenMerten said:
Hello Mark,
Anathema: 'we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate', 'may he be damned at the coming of the Lord', 'but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"

You misunderstand anathema. Anathema is where a Pope calls upon Jesus to bind an evildoer to their sin, as Jesus Promised He would so, and thus eternal damnation. Excommunication, on the other hand is simply asking Catholics to ostracize a fellow Catholic.

Anathema
..."To understand the word anathema", says Vigouroux, "we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of."...
...but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"....
..."Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."...
..."If, after having been deposed from office, he is incorrigible, he should first be excommunicated; but if he perseveres in his contumacy he should be stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss, he reaches the point where he despises these penalties, he should be given over to the secular arm."...
...In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his miter, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

I get it that you want justice. And that you want to let these folks know they are on the expressway to hell. For they really are on that expressway. I think we should tell then explicitly that's where they are headed, not hide behind some automatic thingie. Make it formal and sentence conveyed by a bishop. For that to work we need some good bishops, so fast and pray that we get a few more.

StevenMerten · Feb 26, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
I get it that you want justice. And that you want to let these folks know they are on the expressway to hell. For they really are on that expressway. I think we should tell then explicitly that's where they are headed, not hide behind some automatic thingie. Make it formal and sentence conveyed by a bishop. For that to work we need some good bishops, so fast and pray that we get a few more.

Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

Hello Chevy,
Actually I want to discuss with my fellow Catholics Jesus' Will on how His Justice works, to protect children in the face of scandal, a scandal like the present scandal with children we are in. A

A great number of fellow posters seem to only be concerned with the 'poor guy' who Jesus is telling us to tie a mill stone around his neck and drown him in the sea, rather than on keeping our children in their faith in Jesus. We have to adjust our thinking to Jesus way of thinking. It is not the anathematized Jesus is worried about, it is protecting children from the actions of the anathematized, and how the Church deals with the anathematized, for children's protection, physical and spiritual.

The term 'cut off' a limb in the bible means to put someone to death physically or spiritually. Jesus talks of cutting off limbs and throwing them into Gehenna to protect the Body of His Church from being pulled into endless fire. Jesus is talking about who He Wills His Church to put to death spiritually in Anathema.

We simply have to explain to the world, especially victims of Clergy abuse, how the Pope has the Christ given Power to bind child abusers to their sin, and thus eternal damnation, until they confess their crimes against children in secular courts, and the victims can ask Pope Francis to do this for them, to protect children. If the Pope then does this, it will rejuvenate victims trust in Jesus and trust in His Church, the Catholic Church. Thus Jesus Will to protect children, victims and the world in general, from loosing their faith in God, will be averted.

Leviticus 20 Penalties for Various Sins.
The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name."

Matthew 18:17
"If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven."

Matthew 5:29 Occasions of Impurity.
If your right eye is your trouble, gouge it out and throw it away! Better you lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna. Again if your right hand is your trouble, cut it off and throw it away! Better to lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna."

StevenMerten · Feb 27, 2019

Mark_Sam said:
Again, an urepentant sinner is already facing damnation, unless he repent. The anathema was the cutting off from Christian society and from the Sacraments. And it was a medicinal or remedial punishment, meant to make the sinner repent. The Church does not have the power to damn anyone - only God can. Or rather, it is only the sinner who damns himself. But the Church can 'loose and bind' (forgive or withhold forgiveness, give access to and exclude from the Sacraments or Christian society).

The word "we judge" (judicamus) could very well mean "we consider him, treat him, regard him as condemned", as the verb judicio has a wider meaning in Latin than in English. But I cannot be sure without consulting canonical sources on this. The Church can loose and bind, but not damn someone to Hell.

Hello Sam,
You said, "Again, an urepentant sinner is already facing damnation, unless he repent.". Missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation is mortal sin. So what you are saying is that someone who rapes and murders dozens of children is right up there, in line for damnation, with those who miss Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation? I would prefer to think that Jesus left the 'Sword of His Mouth', His Power to bind and loost sins, with His Apostles and their Successors, for them to use to protect His Flock on earth.

You said, "The Church does not have the power to damn anyone - only God can." This is true, in the sense that it is Jesus' lips binding sinners to their sins, in heaven, which damn's souls to hell. However, Jesus has given His Apostles and their Successors, His sworn oath, through the Power of the Holy Spirit, that He will bind anyone to their sins that Apostolic Successors call upon Him to do so. So it all depends on how you look at it as to whether or not Apostolic Successors anathematizing someone, is the Apostolic Successor damning them to hell, or Jesus damning them to hell.

The 'sword of Christ's mouth' in Revelation 1 and Isaiah 11 below, is Jesus' lips binding sinners to their sins, which slays sinners with spiritual death.

Matthew 16:13
Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Revelation 1:16
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: "There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world."

Isaiah 11:4 The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

John 20:20
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. "Peace be with you," he said again. "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then he breathed on them and said: "Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

Matthew 5:22
What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.

Matthew 18:17
"If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven."

Basil the Great · Feb 27, 2019

StevenMerten said:
Hello Mark,
Anathema: 'we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate', 'may he be damned at the coming of the Lord', 'but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"

You misunderstand anathema. Anathema is where a Pope calls upon Jesus to bind an evildoer to their sin, as Jesus Promised He would so, and thus eternal damnation. Excommunication, on the other hand is simply asking Catholics to ostracize a fellow Catholic.

Anathema
..."To understand the word anathema", says Vigouroux, "we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of."...
...but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven"....
..."Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."...
..."If, after having been deposed from office, he is incorrigible, he should first be excommunicated; but if he perseveres in his contumacy he should be stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss, he reaches the point where he despises these penalties, he should be given over to the secular arm."...
...In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his miter, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

This appears to be a rather confusing matter. I formerly was of the view that the Church believed and taught what is stated in the famous Cantate Domino Papal Bull, namely, that if one is excommunicated, that unless he/she is reconciled with Holy Mother Church prior to death, that he/she is lost and will not go to Heaven. (I am referring only to Catholics here) However, when I saw the former Gov. Cuomo give that interview on television decades ago, probably on ABC's Nightline, wherein he stated that the Church could excommunicate him over the abortion issue, but that only God could judge his immortal soul, then I began to wonder. I have since then read and heard things which make me think that perhaps Gov. Cuomo was right. Maybe the modern Church no longer believes and teaches what was decreed in Cantate Domino? Maybe the modern Church now teaches and believes that God is the ultimate judge of who will and who will not go to Heaven and not an anathema/excommunication decree?

Though this non-Catholic is very knowledgeable about Catholic history and doctrine, this is one area wherein I admit that there seems to be some confusion as to what the modern Church does teach and believe. Has Cantate Domino effectively been thrown into the trash bin of history, in it's entirety? We know that the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" has supposedly given us non-Catholic Christians a pass and a way around a literal interpretation of Cantate Domino. However, what about those who are born and raised as Catholics and get excommunicated? Must they reconcile with Mother Church prior to death or automatically get sent to Hell? Then again, is it as the first Gov. Cuomo stated, that only God can judge an immortal soul, thus implying that someone who is excommunicated and does not reconcile with Mother Church prior to death, still has a chance at salvation?

StevenMerten · Feb 28, 2019

Basil the Great said:
This appears to be a rather confusing matter. I formerly was of the view that the Church believed and taught what is stated in the famous Cantate Domino Papal Bull, namely, that if one is excommunicated, that unless he/she is reconciled with Holy Mother Church prior to death, that he/she is lost and will not go to Heaven. (I am referring only to Catholics here) However, when I saw the former Gov. Cuomo give that interview on television decades ago, probably on ABC's Nightline, wherein he stated that the Church could excommunicate him over the abortion issue, but that only God could judge his immortal soul, then I began to wonder. I have since then read and heard things which make me think that perhaps Gov. Cuomo was right. Maybe the modern Church no longer believes and teaches what was decreed in Cantate Domino? Maybe the modern Church now teaches and believes that God is the ultimate judge of who will and who will not go to Heaven and not an anathema/excommunication decree?

Though this non-Catholic is very knowledgeable about Catholic history and doctrine, this is one area wherein I admit that there seems to be some confusion as to what the modern Church does teach and believe. Has Cantate Domino effectively been thrown into the trash bin of history, in it's entirety? We know that the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" has supposedly given us non-Catholic Christians a pass and a way around a literal interpretation of Cantate Domino. However, what about those who are born and raised as Catholics and get excommunicated? Must they reconcile with Mother Church prior to death or automatically get sent to Hell? Then again, is it as the first Gov. Cuomo stated, that only God can judge an immortal soul, thus implying that someone who is excommunicated and does not reconcile with Mother Church prior to death, still has a chance at salvation?

The Dysfunctional Deception of Catholic Pacifism

Hello Basil,
I see it as the big Catholic dysfunctional, pacifist Deception. Here is an example: From behind the protection of Swiss Guard snipers, a pacifist Pope stated, “Violence is Never the Answer!” But, of course, when it comes to Pope’s protecting themselves, armed security is always the only answer. It is Catholic pacifist leaders who destroyed the Christ willed, protect My Flock, tool of Catholic Anathema. They did so in the past fifty years or so. It is highly likely pacifist Popes still have an auto-Anathema against anyone who harms a Pope. Pacifist Popes have just eliminated using the Christ given 'sword of Christ's mouth', anathema, to protect Christ’s Flock.

Here is my story of dealing with Catholic Pacifism.

When I was young, the Vietnam War was on. In homilies, my priests vehemently condemned killing in war. The draft was on. I wanted to protect my country, but more so, I want to love and remain faithful to Jesus with all my heart, mind, strength and soul. I was in a spiritual pressure cooker. In the confessional, I asked my priest about Jesus’ Will on when to kill to protect the innocent. He made me out as a coward. He said I had to serve my country, but when I got back, come to the Church, and she will help me with all the evil I had done. Yes, Right, not so much help to me.

I ran from the confessional, fell to my knees before Jesus on the Cross. With tears streaming down my face I prayed to my heavenly Father, “I am ready and willing to stand by idle with my weapon at my side, while my own mother is raped, beaten and murdered in front of me. Or I am ready to travel tens of thousands of miles away, and fight to my death, protecting a strangers mother from persecution. But, Heavenly Father, Please, I Beg of You, tell me Your Will on when, or when not, to kill to protect the innocent and I will do it. I can bear the weight of this question no longer.

I could not find any Catholic books on Jesus will on when to kill, to help me. A fellow Catholic told me that the Catholic Church had a ‘Just War Theory’. I was elated. I anxiously asked him, ‘So in which wars did Jesus Will us to kill to protect the innocent? The Catholic screamed back, ‘Jesus is a Pacifist!’ ‘Just War theory is only what the Church Teaches, not what Jesus teaches!’ ‘How can the Catholic Church teach a ‘Just War Theory’, which they themselves believe is in direct opposition to the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ?’, I asked. The Catholic just stomped away with a full head of steam (anger).

From Constantine (300 A.D.), through to 1870, Papal States existed. Toward the end, Popes owned, and ruled over, up to two thirds of Italy, castles and all. Popes had a papal army, along with paying, and promising salvation, to other armies to come help fight and protect all the wealth given to Jesus, by the faithful, so it could be protected and used to help the poor. A fellow Catholic told me all these Popes from Constantine till present, were all evil (many of these Popes were canonized saints) and that the Church did not have a good Pope until St. John Paul II in 1978. I responded, Well what about pacifist Pope John Paul II having Swiss Guard snipers? I know that there were at least two kills, by Papal protective forces, during Pope John Paul II’s papacy, even though they were collateral damage kills. Wow, You would have thought I desecrated the Holy Grail. The fellow Catholic went on about how Pope John Paul II actually hated having armed militia to protect himself.

A fellow Catholic told me, ‘If a person wanted to go to heaven, they certainly would not join the Vatican Swiss Guard!’ Another fellow Catholic told me that being a Swiss Guard was a damned if you do, damned if you don’t, occupation; meaning, to not protect a Pope will damn you, killing to protect the Pope, will damn you. If the Pope believes in pacifism, why don't we just allow him to, Not have, Swiss Guards and Italian police?, I asked. The Vatican having sovereign nation status, will have the backing of the UN, and powerful UN sanctions against any foreign militia who violate a Pope’s wishes to have a pacifist Vatican. Our early Apostles chose martyrdom to remain faithful to Jesus. The fellow Catholic responded, Our Pope is too valuable for us to not protect his life. I responded, the greater the sacrifice, the greater the gift and the glory, to our Lord, through martyrdom. I am just saying, a Pope should be free to offer his life to Jesus in martyrdom, through pacifism, if he chooses to do so. They did not like me very much for my comments.

With the Catholic Church, being fully incapable of teaching me Jesus’ Will on when to kill, for the protection of the innocent, I started prayerfully searching the scriptures to understand Jesus’ Will on when to kill. And I mean many thousands of hours in prayer, contemplation and bible search. I could feel the ‘cut off’ verses calling out to me, through the Power of the Holy Spirit. I showed my priest how Jesus wills His Church to call upon Him to bind certain evildoers to their sins, which thus cuts them off from the life of the body of the Church, to protect the Body of His Church from being pulled into hell. ‘The Church does not have the power to damn anyone to hell’ he exclaimed. Years passed. Then I read about Catholic Church Anathema. I went back to ask my priest about anathema. He was pretty irritated. No confirmation from him.

I had a guy, claiming to be a priest, demand that I stop talking about Catholic Church Anathema online. When I kept talking about anathema, the guy PM me with his anathematization upon me. Needless to say, our present, pacifist thinking, Catholic Church mentality, really, really, really does not want people to know about Catholic Church Anathema. You can tell by many of the posts on this thread as well.

Anathema, the sword of our Lord, which is Jesus’ lips binding sinners to their sins, upon the verbal request of Apostolic Successors, is the most Powerful and most deadly, weapon in existence. Anathema, barring one person from eternal life, is more loss of life (eternal life), than the, combined years of physical life lost, from all the wars in human history. You can tell how much Jesus loves His Church, by the tremendous firepower He left behind, on the tongues of Apostolic Successors, Commanding them to use this weapon to protect His Bride, the Church, the Catholic Church, on earth. Church leaders simply have to get past their emotional dysfunctional pacifist baggage and pull out the ‘Sword of our Lord’, and start protecting Jesus’ Flock, as Jesus Wills them to do!

Protect the Flock! Do not let Satan pull the whole Body of Jesus’ Church into hell by her evil limbs! Cut off the wicked and hurl them into hell, for the protection of the Body of Christ’s Bride, the Church, the Catholic Church, and pull her Body back from the edge of the abyss, and back to safety! Lock n’ Load, Using Catholic Church Anathema, Stand, Protect and Defend, Christ’s Bride, the Church, the Catholic Church, on earth! Which is actually what happens at Armageddon, when Jesus dispatches His angels to bundle the wicked up for burning, in preparation for His Second Coming.

Matthew 13:36
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned (up) with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea, which collects fish of every kind. When it is full they haul it ashore and sit down to put what is good into buckets. What is bad they throw away. Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Please visit:

Combat Angel;
Shepherding the Nations With the Iron Rod of Christ's Mouth

Basil the Great · Feb 28, 2019

Oh my.... Steven, I was beginning to think that no one would respond to my post. However, I certainly did not expect any response to discuss Catholic Pacifism. Anyway, I do appreciate your detailed and heart felt reply. I also was most concerned with the attempt to justify killing in the Vietnam War era. Back then I was pretty much a pacifist. Since then I have modified my views, though I still have pacifist leanings. However, I do not see anyway that we could have allowed the evil of Hitler to run rampant back in WWII. My main problem with Augustine's Just War Doctrine is that he did not specify if every individual Christian has the right to decide if a particular war is just or not, thus in effect giving the State the right to force the issue.

Now, let us look a little at automatic excommunications. As I understand it, these acts amount to automatic excommunication, per Canons 1321-1330:
(1) An apostate from the faith, in other words, a heretic or a schismatic. Hence, any Catholic who converts to Protestantism or Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy is apparently considered automatically excommunicated.
(2) Any person who throws away the consecrated Eucharist
(3) Someone who uses physical force against the Pope
(4) A priest who absolves his accomplice in a sin against the adultery commandment
(5) A bishop who ordains someone a bishop without Papal approval and the person who receives the ordination
(6) A confessor who directly violates the seal of confession
(7) Someone who procures a completed abortion
(8) Accomplices assisting someone in any of the above, without said assistance the excommunication would not have been incurred. (This would seem to apply mostly to someone who assists in the completed abortion.)

It should be noted that the previous automatic excommunications for a Catholic who becomes a member of a Masonic organization or a Catholic who gives aid and assistance to the Communist Party appear to have been deleted from the revised Code of Canon Law. Now, I suppose that the Church could add or delete anything it wishes to the list above, including adding someone who sexually abuses a child. Whether or not this should be done is not for me to say. Whether or not such would help solve the sexual abuse crisis is problematical at best, but such a proposal might be worthy of consideration.

Anyone who is an expert on Canon Law and/or automatic excommunications, please correct any errors that you find in the above list. Now as to the big question that I raised, I wish that a priest who is a member here or a theology professor, would give his view on whether excommunications still carry the full weight of the Cantate Domino Papal Bull or if the former Gov. Cuomo was correct, that only God can judge a human soul, thus implying that an excommunication does not necessarily mean that a Catholic is lost, even if he/she does not reconcile with Mother Church prior to death. Note, the former Gov. Cuomo's thesis directly contradicts Cantate Domino, which Papal Bull specifically insists that one must be reconciled with the Church prior to death or else one is lost.

StevenMerten · Mar 1, 2019

Basil the Great said:
Oh my.... Steven, I was beginning to think that no one would respond to my post. However, I certainly did not expect any response to discuss Catholic Pacifism. Anyway, I do appreciate your detailed and heart felt reply. I also was most concerned with the attempt to justify killing in the Vietnam War era. Back then I was pretty much a pacifist. Since then I have modified my views, though I still have pacifist leanings. However, I do not see anyway that we could have allowed the evil of Hitler to run rampant back in WWII. My main problem with Augustine's Just War Doctrine is that he did not specify if every individual Christian has the right to decide if a particular war is just or not, thus in effect giving the State the right to force the issue.

Hello Basil,
War? You are getting way ahead of the question. At ten or twelve years old, I could not even get clarification on Jesus' will for me to kill an attacker who has knife to my mother's throat, from Catholic leaders. It was all this, "well, Jesus will understand, it was your mother. What else could you do" What! What else could I do? I could love and obey Jesus, by being a pacifist and letting my innocent mother die, rather than hate and disobey Jesus! I am strong enough to love Jesus in this way, if this truly is His Will. I want to know if killing the attacker to protect the innocent is what Jesus wills me to Do, in order to love and obey Jesus? The dysfunctional Catholic priests, Bishops and Pope, cannot even give a confirmation, Yes, Jesus wills you to kill an attacker to protect the innocent. Even today, it is still hard to get Catholic clergy to confirm that Jesus wills us to kill an attacker to protect the innocent. Catholic leadership is just plain, massively dysfunctional, when it comes to teaching young people how to remain faithful to Jesus when it comes to Jesus' Will on when to kill to protect the innocent.

In the Second Secret of Fatima, the Blessed Mother clearly warns us on what causes war. If people do not repent of their sins and quit massively offending God, there will be wars on earth, from God. If people repent of their sins and return their hearts to God, God will grant us peace. How do Popes translate this message? Instead of preaching to Catholics to repent of their sins, so God will grant us peace, Popes are out their trying to be the big man, judging nations and condemning the secular world on wars. Instead of Catholic priests preaching for people to stop committing fornication, adultery and stealing, they are out talking about how evil war is, how evil secularism is, and the like. Why don't priest's Bishops and Popes teach young Catholics how to remain faithful to Jesus when killing in combat, because they want to build up their own personal prestige as Pacifists, to condemn world leaders who are at war. Oh not Putin, or Kim Jong-Un, the real evil guys, no Popes are out to flash their pacifism by condemning America, who actually is struggling to bring peace and stability to the world. Talk about a totally dysfunctional bag of Pacifist garbage. Oh, and when the Nazis were actually committing great evil in world war II, and all the Pope had to do to condemn their evils of war was step outside the Vatican door and yell, then the Pacifists keep their mouths shut.

Dump this massively dysfunctional Catholic Pacifist bag of garbage in the sewer where it belongs, and get back to preaching to Catholics to obey God, in order to avert war, and teaching young people who serve in the military and police forces, Jesus real Will on when to kill to protect the innocent. Teach young Catholics how to remain faithful and loving to Jesus, as they protect the innocent in killing in war or police actions.

Ok Basil my friend. I just had to let that out. It is pacifist Popes, from behind the protection of Swiss Guard snipers, condemning our great protectors, that hurts my heart. I hope I did not offend you in any way. I will now work on a second post on auto-anathema.

StevenMerten · Mar 1, 2019

Basil the Great said:
Oh my.... Steven, I was beginning to think that no one would respond to my post. However, I certainly did not expect any response to discuss Catholic Pacifism. Anyway, I do appreciate your detailed and heart felt reply. I also was most concerned with the attempt to justify killing in the Vietnam War era. Back then I was pretty much a pacifist. Since then I have modified my views, though I still have pacifist leanings. However, I do not see anyway that we could have allowed the evil of Hitler to run rampant back in WWII. My main problem with Augustine's Just War Doctrine is that he did not specify if every individual Christian has the right to decide if a particular war is just or not, thus in effect giving the State the right to force the issue.

Now, let us look a little at automatic excommunications. As I understand it, these acts amount to automatic excommunication, per Canons 1321-1330:
(1) An apostate from the faith, in other words, a heretic or a schismatic. Hence, any Catholic who converts to Protestantism or Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy is apparently considered automatically excommunicated.
(2) Any person who throws away the consecrated Eucharist
(3) Someone who uses physical force against the Pope
(4) A priest who absolves his accomplice in a sin against the adultery commandment
(5) A bishop who ordains someone a bishop without Papal approval and the person who receives the ordination
(6) A confessor who directly violates the seal of confession
(7) Someone who procures a completed abortion
(8) Accomplices assisting someone in any of the above, without said assistance the excommunication would not have been incurred. (This would seem to apply mostly to someone who assists in the completed abortion.)

It should be noted that the previous automatic excommunications for a Catholic who becomes a member of a Masonic organization or a Catholic who gives aid and assistance to the Communist Party appear to have been deleted from the revised Code of Canon Law. Now, I suppose that the Church could add or delete anything it wishes to the list above, including adding someone who sexually abuses a child. Whether or not this should be done is not for me to say. Whether or not such would help solve the sexual abuse crisis is problematical at best, but such a proposal might be worthy of consideration.

Anyone who is an expert on Canon Law and/or automatic excommunications, please correct any errors that you find in the above list. Now as to the big question that I raised, I wish that a priest who is a member here or a theology professor, would give his view on whether excommunications still carry the full weight of the Cantate Domino Papal Bull or if the former Gov. Cuomo was correct, that only God can judge a human soul, thus implying that an excommunication does not necessarily mean that a Catholic is lost, even if he/she does not reconcile with Mother Church prior to death. Note, the former Gov. Cuomo's thesis directly contradicts Cantate Domino, which Papal Bull specifically insists that one must be reconciled with the Church prior to death or else one is lost.

Isaiah 11:4 The Rule of Emmanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

John 20:20
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. "Peace be with you," he said again. "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then he breathed on them and said: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

Revelation 19:11 The King of Kings.
The heavens were opened, and as I looked on, a white horse appeared; its rider was called "The Faithful and True." Justice is his standard in passing judgment and in waging war. His eyes blazed like fire, and on his head were many diadems. Inscribed on his person was a name known to no one but himself. He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was the Word of God. The armies of heaven were behind him riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, pure and white. Out of his mouth came a sharp sword for striking down the nations. He will shepherd them with an iron rod; it is he who will tread out in the winepress the blazing wrath of God the Almighty. A name was written on the part of the cloak that covered his thigh: "King of kings and Lord of lords."...

Hello Basil,
The heart of Jesus and God the Father, concerning Catholic Church Anathema, it is really plays a huge part in scriptures. The 'Sword of Christ's Mouth', described in Revelation 19, is Jesus' lips binding sinners to their sins; in other words, the equivalent of Catholic Church anathema. Scripture says that Jesus is going to Rule, on earth, with the 'Sword of His Mouth'. Jesus says He is going to put His Apostles on thrones, Ruling with Him. How handy is that, that Apostolic Successors already possess from Jesus, Jesus Power to bind and loost sins, the 'Sword of Christ's Mouth', Catholic Church Anathema.

Jesus says He will dispatch His angels, upon His Second Coming, to bundle the wicked up for burning, and the Elect, into His Kingdom. Well Catholic Church anathema, or an equivalent, is the perfect tool for Combat Angels of the Apocalypse to hurl the wicked into hell. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is the perfect tool for separating out the Elect, to enter into Christ's Kingdom Come, on earth. Well, if Michael and His angels can't make it, Apostolic Successors are already armed with the weapon of a Combat angel, Anathema. They can fill in. I think Apostolic Successors will be Christ's great, Combat Angels of the Apocalypse.

About ninety times, the term 'cut off' comes up in scriptures to mean, put someone to death, either physically or spiritual death. When Jesus Commands His Apostles to 'cut off' a limb and throw it into hell to protect the Body from being pulled into hell, He is talking about the Body of His Church. So in Matthew 18, where Jesus is talking about protecting His Church from scandal, like our clergy abuse scandal today, He really is Commanding His Apostolic Successors to use Anathema to protect His Bride, the Church, from those who cause her harm through scandal.

Since the time I was a child with my dilemma of seeking Jesus will on when to kill, I have done a great deal of prayer, scriptural study, and contemplation on anathema. Some of the chapters I have written on anathema are linked below. There is a great deal of scripture on the issue of anathema which I present. The Blessed Mother has told us that their is very little crime in Jesus Kingdom Come on earth. I am sure Apostolic Successors, Ruling with Jesus, enforcing Christ's Laws using the 'Sword of Christ's Mouth', Catholic Church Anathema, is the reason for this.

I was hoping that before we get to involved in studying how the Church has used the 'Sword of Christ's Mouth', Catholic Church Anathema, in the past, that we could look into the future, and how it Anathema will play a huge role in how Jesus gets things done, in His Kingdom Come.

I am hoping to hear your opinions. Don't hold back. I hope we can discuss the role of Anathema, the 'Sword of Christ's Mouth', Jesus Power to bind and loost sins, in scriptures.

Throwing Stones

Combat Angel; Shepherding the Nations With the Iron Rod of Christ's Mouth

Anathema; The Sword of Christ's Mouth on Earth

Gouge Out an Evil Eye of The Body of The Church

Basil the Great · Mar 1, 2019

Steven - You sure have thrown me a curve ball. I never would have thought that any Catholic clergy would question the morality of killing to protect one's mother, father, sister, brother , spouse or child. As far as the anathema, yes, I understand that it has it's roots in Scripture. However, the key question still remains, is Cantate Domino's excommunication damnation valid for Catholics in the 2019 (or even as an Ultra Traditionalist probably contends, valid for Orthodox, Protestants and all non-Christians as well) or was Gov. Mario Cuomo right in his Nightline interview about 30 years ago, when he contended that the Church can excommunicate, but only God can judge a human soul, thus implying that excommunication does not necessarily = damnation?

Let us consider the excommunication against the EO Patriarch "and all his followers", certainly implying that the entire EO branch of Christendom was excommunicated when Cardinal Humbert laid the excommunication bull on the altar of the Hagia Sofia. Now, Pope Paul lifted the excommunication in the 1960's and this lifting of the excommunication anathema seems to indicate that excommunications are not infallible and do not necessariiy = damnation. However, Cantate Domino tells us otherwise. Yes, some will claim that Cardinal Humbert did not have the power to excommunicate the EO Patriarch "and all his followers", since the Pope had passed away. Hence, if true, then I suppose an Ultra Traditionalist could claim that Pope Paul's lifting of the excommunication was more for helping improving relations with the EO Church than the saving of souls.

Back to the point of this thread and the poll included herein. It seems to me that the excommunication anathema is not used nearly as often today as compared to the Middle Ages, when the Cantate Domino Papal Bull was issued, as the Modern Church believes that using excommunication as a tool in our modern society can hurt the Church's image among both Catholics and non-Catholics. I concur with the Church's assessment. If the Church were to automatically excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion rights (ex: former Gov. Mario Cuomo or his son, the current NY Gov. Cuomo), then many would contend that the Church is incorrectly invading the realm of politics. However, an automatic excommunication of those who sexually abuse children is a little different. Such an anathema would not tread upon the realm of politics and government. Still, it seems very unlikely that the Church will decide to automatically excommunicate those who abuse children.

chevyontheriver · Mar 1, 2019

Basil the Great said:
Let us consider the excommunication against the EO Patriarch "and all his followers", certainly implying that the entire EO branch of Christendom was excommunicated when Cardinal Humbert laid the excommunication bull on the altar of the Hagia Sofia. Now, Pope Paul lifted the excommunication in the 1960's and this lifting of the excommunication anathema seems to indicate that excommunications are not infallible and do not necessariiy = damnation. However, Cantate Domino tells us otherwise. Yes, some will claim that Cardinal Humbert did not have the power to excommunicate the EO Patriarch "and all his followers", since the Pope had passed away. Hence, if true, then I suppose an Ultra Traditionalist could claim that Pope Paul's lifting of the excommunication was more for helping improving relations with the EO Church than the saving of souls.

An excommunication lasts only as long as the natural life of the person excommunicated, that is unless it is lifted before that time. The patriarch was excommunicated, but the excommunication has not continued to new generations of the Orthodox. The 'lifting' of the excommunication by the pope was thus mostly symbolism. One might ask whether the excommunication by the Orthodox of the pope was considered to extend to Catholics in perpetuity. I don't know the answer to that question but many Orthodox seem to act like we Catholics are all damned in perpetuity.

When one dies they are judged by God. Some who are not excommunicated will be damned, so I would fear to enter judgment if I died an excommunicated person. Mario Cuomo appears to have no such fears, which I consider very naive. He is technically correct that God will judge him in God'own court, but presumptuous that God will judge him more mercifully than justly. Cuomo thinks that his crimes are no big deal to God.

Mark_Sam · Mar 1, 2019

Basil the Great said:
Has Cantate Domino effectively been thrown into the trash bin of history, in it's entirety?

Basil the Great said:
However, the key question still remains, is Cantate Domino's excommunication damnation valid for Catholics in the 2019

I mean, where in Cantate Domino does it say that those who are formally excommunicated/anathemized are damned? The quote I find floating around is this one from Cantate:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

And this is very much true to this day. Outside the Church there is no salvation. If someone is in the Church, and then breaks away and becomes a heretic or schismatic, they forfeit their salvation. If a Jew or a pagan continue to live their old ways, even when the truth of the Gospel has been revealed to them, then they will not be saved.

Skim reading the papal bull, I see that it anathematizes a bunch of known heretics (Marcion, Eutyches, Paul of Samosata, the Manicheans etc.) But I don't see that it spells out the fate of the excommunicated. Of course, one can assume with confidence that have the heretics been informed of their heresy and the subsequent anathema, and willingly chosen to prevail in their heresy, even after they had been given the opportunity to recant - then they most likely don't want to be saved and have willingly forfeited their salvation. Still, even with all its anathemas, the Church has never "anti-canonized" someone (i.e. infallibly declared someone to be in Hell).

Basil the Great · Mar 1, 2019

Perhaps you are right? Maybe I went too far? Then again, maybe not? While it does not specifically say that those who are excommunicated are lost, it is possible to still read it that way. Can we really say that an excommunicated Catholic has remained "within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"? I guess it depends upon how one wishes to interpret the Papal Bull. Still, I do concede that you make a valid point. The Papal Bull does not specifically refer to excommunicated Catholics, unless they become schismatics or heretics, and then they would certainly seem to be covered by the Bull. Anyway, I will withdraw from this thread. I do not wish to cause any dissension and I apologize for not being more careful in making my case.

Yes, I am well aware that the Church has never declared that any specific person is in Hell. Good point.

Should the Church Auto-Anathematize Child Abusers who have Not Confessed in Secular Courts?

Should the Church auto-anathematize child abusers who have not confessed in secular courts?

Yes! World wide, binding on all, auto-anathema till child abusers confess in secular courts.

No

Yes, but only anathematize Catholic child abusers.

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