What does the resurrection of Jesus actually prove?

Theo Barnsley said:

You dont believe the Quran is true, or the book of Mormon is true, because they ADD to the bible? So why then do you believe that the New Testament is true? Dosnt it ADD to the bible?

Go & ask a Jew to show you their bible. It dosnt have ANY of the new testament in it, because the New Testament was ADDED to the bible, just like tthe other religions that you dont believe because they were ADDED to the bible. So by your very own logic, you have just proven that the New Testament is false!

Jesus was not important to the Romans at all. According to the story, Pontius Pilate could find no evidence Jesus was even guilty of anything, & was happy to let Jesus go, but the jews insisted that he be crucified. If it was the Romans who were concerned he might rise on the 3rd day, why release his body at all, they could have left his carcass on the cross to decompose & be eaten by the animals like the other carcasses, which is possibly what DID happen. If guards WERE sent to guard the tomb, as claimed ONLY in Mathew, the soldiers would not have bothered to check to see if the body was still in the tomb unless that was part of their orders. Apparently a rock was rolled across the tomb entrance way. They would only investigate if the rock was removed. No doubt if somebody removed the body, they would have rolled the rock back before leaving. Jesus was nothing to the roman guards. There were plenty of crazy jews going about saying they were the messiah at that time.

The Romans would only have conducted an investigation into a missing body if a missing body was reported. According to the new testament, the disciples did not bother to preach Jesus resurection until at least 50 days after the crucifiction. By this time any body would have been so decomposed to have been unrecognisable. There would be no way to confirm if any body was the body of Jesus. There was no forensics or DNA testing back then.

I am sure that there were plenty of tombs about. All they had to do was take Jesus from one tomb & place him in another tomb. If the body was not REPORTED missing, no investigation would have been launched, & even if the body WAS reported missing, how seriously would they have really looked. As I said, Jesus was not important to the Romans. If you believe the story, it was not the Romans that were upset by the miracles & claims to diety, it was the Jews. But if Jesus followeres HAD moved the body, they are hardly going to report the body missing, are they! There are certainly no reports in the N.T. or anywhere else about an investigation being conducted. If one had been, & no body found, I am sure one of the N.T. writers would have mentioned it, as this would have added weight to their case that Jesus actually rose from the dead.

Another thing that adds weight to the claim that the body was moved, & not a resurection event, is that Jesus was supposed to be resureted after 3 days. Yet if he died on Friday night, & his body was discovered missing on morning of the 1st day of the week (Sunday), then by my calculations it isnt even 2 days before his body was discovered missing! How does that square with Jesus saying he will be raised after THREE days in the earth? (It is actually only 1 1/2 days from being placed in the tomb, till his body was discovered missing, according to the gospels). If Jesus was resurected, & his body not moved, then his body should still have been in the tomb after 1 1/2 days, & not gone missing until Monday night, not Sunday morning!

That is your take, but if you believe in the O.T. then YaWeH clearly states, there is only one god, & no other god.

Please show me ONE passage in the O.T. where it says that there is a Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, or a trinity?

Show me one verse in the O.T. where it says that anybody else is sitting at the right hand of God?

Jesus being god CLEARLY contradicts the Old Testament, so the new testament is CLEARLY NOT part of the Old Testament, which any learned Jew will attest. It also says NOWHERE in the O.T. that the Messiah would be god. If God KNEW he was going to send Jesus from the very beginning as claimed by christian apologists, you would think that would have been mentioned somewhere, other than very vague 'prophecies' that any Jewish Rabbi can easily interpret as having nothing to do with a prophecy of Jesus.

Instead we have these descriptions of God in the O.T., which make it VERY CLEAR that there is NOT going to be a god Messiah, or somebody else sitting at the right hand of God, or a trinity:

1. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
2. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
3. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
4. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
5. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
9. "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
10. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
11. "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
12. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
13. "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
14. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
15. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
16. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
17. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
18. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
19. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
20. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
21. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

There are more, but I am sure you get the general idea!

Why would god stress over & over & over again, that there was none besides him, that there was no one else, that he was the 1st & the last, if there was actually a trinity. Why would god not just say that there is a trinity from the get go? Why would god expect the Jews to recognise Jesus as the messiah, when NOWHERE in the OT does it state that the messiah is god, or that the messiah would be resurected after being killed?

I have also not yet had anyone attempt to explain how Jesus is not a false prophet, since he clearly did NOT return in the timeframe that he said that he would (the generation of the apostles)!

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Theo Barnsley said:

Then show me evidence that what you believe about Jesus is any more valid than the scenario that I have stated? What you believe makes no more logical sense than the scenario that I have proposed as an explanation for the resurection.

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frankieberg1985 said:

Is there no escaping this world?

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Theo Barnsley said:

I have asked this question in a no. of debate forums when the topic of Jesus resurrection has arisen, but have never yet had anybody attempt to answer the question, so will start a new thread on the topic, to see if I can get any sensible responses.

For the purpose of this discussion, I am not attempting to prove or disprove that Jesus resurrection actually occured or not. For the purpose of this discussion I will just assume that it did.

The question is however, what does jesus resurrection actually prove?

If you say that it proves that jesus was god, or gods son. then there is a problem, because around 6 other people were apparently resurrected according to the new testament. So does this prove that they are also gods, or gods son's? If it dosnt, then the resurrection cannot prove that jesus was a god, or gods son.

If you say that it proves that jesus is god or gods son, because he was resurected after 3 days, again there is a problem, because Lazarus was apparently resurrected after 4 days, which would make Lazarus resurrection even more miraculous than Jesus resurrection.

If you say that Jesus was able to perform resurrections himself, & that proves he is god, or gods son, again there is a problem, because in the book of acts, both Peter & Paul are reported to have performed resurrections of dead people.

So Jesus being resurrected does not prove that he is a god, or else we have at least 6 gods in the new testament. Jesus being able to resurrect people also does not prove he was a god, or else Peter & Paul must also be gods.

The Jews also accused Jesus of performing his miracles by magic or through demons (beezlebub), so apparently the jews believed that demons were capable of performing resurrections.

So even if we could prove that Jesus WAS resurrected, how can we know that the resurrection was performed through the power of god, & not through the work of a demon? Maybe Satan resurrected Jesus, because Satan knew that this would cause people to worship a false god?

The christian faith is using the Jewish bible as the foundation stone of their religion, yet they are claiming that the Jews can not interpret their own bible correctly, & that only they can interpret it.

Yet when I hear Jewish Rabbi's such as Rabbi Michael Skobac or Rabbi Tovia Singer explain bible passages that christians CLAIM to be prophecy about Jesus, it is easy to see when they are put into the correct context that these prophecies are not about Jesus at all.

So this is the evidence we have:
1. The resurrection can not prove that Jesus was god or the son of god, because other people were also resurrected in the bible, & they can not all be gods or the son of god.

2. The time that Jesus was dead before being resurrected also is not proof of anything, because Lazarus was apparently dead for a day longer then Jesus before being resurrected.

3. Being able to resurrect people is not proof that you are a god or the son of god, because both Peter & Paul were able to resurrect people.

4. Jesus, Peter & Paul were all accused by the jews of doing their work through demons. It cannot be proven that this is not the case. There is no proof that god was the agency through which their miracles were performed.

5. It can not be proven that any prophecies in the bible were actually about jesus, because jewish rabbis can easily come up with better interpretations of the passages claimed by christian apologists that do not involve jesus.

6. Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies expected of the messiah, which is why the jews did not accept jesus as the messiah. the followers of jesus also knew that he did not fulfill any prophecies, which is why he apparently has to come a 2nd time to fulfill the prophecies.

7. Jesus apparently had to change his mind on many things after his crucifiction, because there was no traction on getting the jews to believe that he was the messiah. Jesus had to send a 2nd messenger (Paul of Tarsus) to convert the gentiles, because the uptake by jews was so low. In fact the majority of the theology of christianity comes from Paul, not from Jesus.

You would think that jesus, if he were a god or the son of god, would have had the foresight to know this beforehand, & either change the laws himself, or else prophecy that another messenger would come after him to convert the gentiles. He failed to do this. We know from the letters of Paul that there were severe disagreements between Paul & the other apostles, which could have been avoided if jesus had let them know beforehand of his intentions. There are even discussions today in some christian communities about wether Paul of tarsus was a true messenger of god.

8. Jesus gave a time frame of when he was supposed to return, to accomplish the prophecies of the messiah. It was supposed to be in the generation of the apostles who were with jesus at the time. Yet he never returned as he stated he would. At the very least this makes jesus a false prophet.

Christians say that satan is a huge deciever, who is very cunning, & can decieve the whole world. How do we know that satan is not deceiving christians right now, by getting them to believe in jesus? The evidence that christians can put foward for jesus being the messiah is no more compelling than the evidence that Jews can put forward that jesus is NOT the messiah.

If god made the jews his chosen people, there is no reason he would have abandoned them now. If jesus was indeed the messiah, you would think that god would have been smart enough to make the prophecies to the jews crystal clear, so that there was absolutely no doubt in their mind that Jesus was indeed the prophesied messiah. The fact that the claimed prophecies about Jesus are so vague that they can so easily be dismissed by the jews would mean that god deliberately wants the jews & others to be decieved, or else they are not prophecies about Jesus at all, & satan is the one who is deceiving the christians!

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Theo Barnsley said:

Except Psalm 2:7-12 dosnt mention anything about the resurection of the dead, or the Holy Spirit & it also isnt talking about Jesus. Psalm 2:7-12 is about the nation of Israel, which is referred to a no. of times in the O.T. as 'Gods Son', as can be seen in the follwoing passage:
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols” (vv. 1–2).
- Hosea 11:1–7

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Theo Barnsley said:

I dont know, & either do you. You might like to postulate that you know, but you will have zero evidence, either from scripture or elsewhere to backup any name or entity you might propose. There are many angels mentioned in the O.T.

I notice you have made no attempt to answer the other questions I challenged you on.

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Theo Barnsley said:

So what does this actually prove? It actually proves nothing. You are trying to infer that the 'Angel of God' is Jesus, but there is absolutely nothing in the passages suggesting that this might be the case. For you to make this claim smacks of desperation on your part.

I COULD infer that its the REAL messiah (not Jesus) who is yet to actually appear on earth & FULFILL the prophecies that the messiah was SUPPOSED to fulfill, instead of being crucified as a criminal & fulfilling NO prophecies that the messiah was supposed to fulfill. But there is nothing suggesting that my proposition is true any more or LESS than the passage supports your proposition that the angel is Jesus.

In Genesis, god is described as walking in the garden with Adam & Eve, & since we were supposedly created in 'gods image' apparently God can apparently appear as looking like a man if he wants to. If god can poof a universe & everything in it from nothing into existance, I am sure that god can manage to appear from time to time as a man if he wants to. I dont think it is required for god to have a son to act on his behalf!

There is nothing in the O.T. that suggests that god does have a son, quite the contrary, which brings me once again to the 21 passages describing God, that you have made absolutely no attempt to explain where Jesus fits in with the passages:

1. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
2. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
3. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
4. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
5. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
9. "You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
10. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
11. "You alone are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
12. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
13. "You alone, Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
14. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
15. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
16. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
17. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
18. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
19. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
20. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
21. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

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