MJ Only The Messiah's Baptism: Moving Beyond the Ritual Washing

Lulav said:

I've always wondered how one who is born a Jew becomes a Jew? have you ever wondered what he meant by that, besides the P'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

Paul was actually commanded by James to do that because there was a lot of uproar about Paul teaching the Jews to not keep the commandments of Moses. I don't think that was an idle gossip either.

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Hi again Lulav!

Yes, i sometimes wondered what Paul meant there too. And I think it is the same as when the Jewish disciples in the following verse, where they speak of having a fear of the Jews:

NAS John 20:19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."

So I think to these Jewish believers that when they refer to "the Jews" in this type of context it is referring to the ruling religious establishment. Similar to how the Jews in Roman Emperor Constantine's day had to "beware of the Christians," as those were the ones killing the true believers.

So I think that when Paul says "I became as a Jew," he is referring to finding a common ground with those who were a part of that religious structure, so he could share his belief in the Messiah with them:

NAS 1 Corinthians 9:20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;

And we know at other times that Paul spoke of it being an honor to be Jewish, so he was never against his Jewish heritage as some seem to portray.

Does that make sense?! : )

AbbaLove said:

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... "regeneration" (referring to previous post #25) seems the correct usage (IMO) in Matthew 19:28 (glorified bodies); whereas the Apostles have already been "born again" (spiritual rebirth) on earth, without any noticeable change in their physical appearance (1 Peter 1:22-23).

The Greek word of παλιγγενεσία, "palingenesia" can apparently be translated as either "rebirth" or "regeneration" ... so it depends on a translators theology preference/distinction as to which word seems more appropriate in Matthew 19:28 and which word more appropriate in Titus 3:5.

Titus 3:5 ...
... "the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (NIV)
... "through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, (YLT)
... "by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (NAS)​

FWIW, the word "rebirth" is not found in any paraphrased or literal translation of Matthew 19:28, but there are several translations of this verse that use other words besides "regeneration" such as: renewal of all things, made new, new world, future world, Messianic Age, renewed creation, New Creation.

Thus "regeneration" (IMO) is both internal and external; whereas "rebirth" (1 Peter 1:22-23) is just internal (spiritual rebirth). "Rebirth" is a spiritual baptism that occurs on earth; whereas "regeneration" is a supernatural transformation of body and soul. So, the NIV translation of "rebirth" (born from above) may be preferred over "regeneration" by other translations depending in part on how they interpret Ephesians 2:6 (spiritually). How do you interpret Ephesians 2:5-7 ?

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Nicodemus asked Yeshua if an old man can enter his mother's womb the second time? Yeshua answers "Yes indeed", so any water being used at birth must refer to the water inside the womb. A man must be born from water and spirit, as Yeshua says. That which is born from flesh is flesh, that which is born from spirit is spirit. All those born from the Spirit their nature are like the wind, you hear the sound of the wind but you don't know where they come from or where they are going. Faith comes by hearing, it is obvious Nicodemus and Yeshua are talking about what occurs when a man is born from his mother's womb.

AbbaLove said:

Thus "regeneration" (IMO) is both internal and external; whereas "rebirth" (1 Peter 1:22-23) is just internal (spiritual rebirth).

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Abbalove the Greek scholar Lenski (in his commentary) explains some aspects of how the Greek is constructed in Matthew 19:28 that would go along with what you are saying. He says that the way the Greek reads, its showing that "in the regeneration" is dated at the time when "the son of man shall seat himself on his throne of glory." What Lenski then says (and he's not always right of course) is that the "regeneration/rebirth" refers to the rebirth of the world, and not the act of rebirth but to the reborn world. He then says "In Titus 3:5 it is used to designate the rebirth wrought in the individual by baptism." (I'm guessing he is assuming water baptism, and I believe he is incorrect if that's what he means!).

Just FYI...