Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
None of this addresses my comment, it is just as I said, you do not discern the Truth in the Scriptures. Wealth, the love of it is deceitful...just as ALL those passages you cite claim. You are so biased in your thinking that you cannot glean the truth of the Word. Be more careful and you'll get yourself on the right track. All of these passages are used to warn against not only wealth for decadence sake or for the love of living in luxury but also that this type of worldliness chokes out their love of God. Now I could go through each passage and show that, but I believe you can take the second look yourself and truly see this.
Revelation 6:15-16:
5 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Revelation 21:22-27:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The kings of the earth bring their splendor into heaven...hmmm. You are looking only at the surface of things. Man looks at the outward appearance of things, but God looks at the heart.

You did not address my post at all.

The kings in Revelation 6 are unbelievers.
The kings in Revelation 21:22-27 are believers who are resurrected bodily after having past the test of faith.

So the verses I stated still plainly mean what they say.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Your questions are loaded in an attempt to undo a truth you don’t like in Scripture. I don’t have to explain the fine print details of why God says what He does within His Word. We take it by faith and believe Him. Would it really convince you if I answered your questions? My guess is that would be a...”no.”

You do not understand what God says and why He says it, you are instead only quick to draw a false conclusion and judge...incorrectly so. It is true that money corrupts if you are godless.We are warned that it corrupts and those still of this world are to be educated of this fact and we should show love and concern for them to help them turn from such idols to God. And there can be many such gods in our lives...like your own stomach.

timothyu · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
And there can be many such gods in our lives...like your own stomach.

I'd bow to my stomach but it won't let me bend over

Der Alte · Feb 25, 2019

straykat said:
I can understand questioning some of the other poster's severity, but Jesus was pretty explicit about the simplicity and lack of greed we are called to. And that passage you're quoting has nothing to do with any of this. You're applying a passage meant for the Apostle John and martyrdom. And martyrdom is a calling different for everyone. Living without riches however is not applicable to some, but applies to others. It's the same for everyone.

John 21:21-22 says nothing about John's martyrdom. I see the passage as Jesus telling the disciples who questioned Him that John's situation was none of their business. I apply that to this vendetta against all people who are more well off than others. If there are some wealthy people who are greedy, misuse their wealth etc. this is not the place to discuss it. It should be brought to the attention of the people themselves. This is step three. Steps 1 and 2 have not been taken. Here are all the steps.

Matthew 18:15-17
(15) [step 1] "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
(16) [step 2] But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
(17) [step 3] If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Note this passage says nothing about someone carrying on a prolonged vendetta against people who are wealthy.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The kings in Revelation 6 are unbelievers.
The kings in Revelation 21:22-27 are believers who are resurrected bodily after having past the test of faith.

So the verses I stated still plainly mean what they say.

You again misread. I posted those passages to show you that one must be discerning of Scripture. It was not the fact that a king of the earth lives in relative luxury here on earth that kept him out of heaven. These are two examples and the deciding factor is faith. All things are possible with God.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

timothyu said:
I'd bow to my stomach but it won't let me bend over

Supposing you do not know of this passage, say not so much as those of the rich:
Philippians 3:18-20:
For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

straykat · Feb 25, 2019

Der Alter said:
John 21:21-22 says nothing about John's martyrdom.

Of course it does (or rather, the lack of John's martyrdom). Jesus alludes to Peter's martyrdom right before he said this:

"Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.” [John 21:18-19]

It's only then that Peter wants to know about John. "When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, 'Lord, what about him?'"

It had nothing to do with some abstract sense of judgement. He wanted to know if John shared the same fate as him. It was ONLY THAT that was none of his business. Peter was an apostle and bishop. Of course, morals in general were his business. This idea of "freedom of conscience" and hands off management of morals in the church is lunacy.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
You again misread. I posted those passages to show you that one must be discerning of Scripture. It was not the fact that a king of the earth lives in relative luxury here on earth that kept him out of heaven. These are two examples and the deciding factor is faith. All things are possible with God.

Right, and these are obvious because the context makes this so. There is no context that undoes the plain meaning of the verses I posted. It is talking to believers in the New Covenant. Funny, how we can agree on Revelation 6, and Revelation 21, but we cannot agree on those verses that talk about we as believers cannot being rich in this life.

Is it possible that you are being guided by an outside pre-supposition or outside ideas that are influencing you to change the meaning of these texts?
I just read and believe them at face value (even if a small part of me may not like what it says). Meaning, do you simply reject these verses in what they say out of hand because the idea of forsaking great material wealth is not appealing to you? Personally, I think that is what many are doing here; Either that or they are simply unaware of these verses.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
You do not understand what God says and why He says it, you are instead only quick to draw a false conclusion and judge...incorrectly so. It is true that money corrupts if you are godless.We are warned that it corrupts and those still of this world are to be educated of this fact and we should show love and concern for them to help them turn from such idols to God. And there can be many such gods in our lives...like your own stomach.

If what you say is true, then explain the verses I put forth in post #289;
Or at least a few of them, anyways.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
If what you say is true, then explain the verses I put forth in post #289;
Or at least a few of them, anyways.

Mark 4:19:
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
When one is born again we know the deceitfulness of greed and learn to use our money in a godly manner...it is a tool to serve God not a tool for gaining worldly pleasures, etc or to some way serve ourselves.

I Timothy 3:3:
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
Here we see that it is the love of money God warns against.

Matthew 6:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
This is very clear, isn't it? Money cannot master you, must not master you. You use your money to serve God and not yourself.

You have others, these are the short passages for convenience. They should illustrate the matter well enough.

timothyu · Feb 25, 2019

People who defend owning artillery say guns don't kill, people do, yet won't give money the same credit.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Right, and these are obvious because the context makes this so. There is no context that undoes the plain meaning of the verses I posted. It is talking to believers in the New Covenant. Funny, how we can agree on Revelation 6, and Revelation 21, but we cannot agree on those verses that talk about we as believers cannot being rich in this life.

Is it possible that you are being guided by an outside pre-supposition or outside ideas that are influencing you to change the meaning of these texts?
I just read and believe them at face value (even if a small part of me may not like what it says). Meaning, do you simply reject these verses in what they say out of hand because the idea of forsaking great material wealth is not appealing to you? Personally, I think that is what many are doing here; Either that or they are simply unaware of these verses.

The Old Covenant is different from the New, but salvation for all people through all ages came from and comes from the same route...faith in the Messiah, Jesus. The Kings are the Kings just as is stated.
I have no problem forsaking money, but that is not what Scripture demands. We must forsake money where it stands between us and faith in God ,

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

timothyu said:
People who defend owning artillery say guns don't kill, people do, yet won't give money the same credit.

Don't see how that equates or relates; get serious with the topic.

timothyu · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
get serious with the topic.

Wouldn't affect anyone's thinking either way.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Mark 4:19:
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
When one is born again we know the deceitfulness of greed and learn to use our money in a godly manner...it is a tool to serve God not a tool for gaining worldly pleasures, etc or to some way serve ourselves.

“And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.” (Mark 4:19).

We learn here that it is the deceitfulness of riches as to one of the reasons why the Word of God was choked. The message of God's Word was not able to be planted in a person's heart to be fruitful in a person's life because they are focused on riches. I have seen this happen. A believer can get off the path in serving Christ to run after riches. But 1 Timothy 6 says we are to flee in being rich and that we are to follow after righteousness instead.

Anyways, the problem is that you are inserting something into this text that is not there or anywhere in the New Testament. The deceitfulness of riches. That is what choked the Word.

I Timothy 3:3:
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
Here we see that it is the love of money God warns against.

In the King James it says not greedy of filthy lucre. This is more appropriate; But if you are die hard on your interpretation from your Modern Translation, you have to understand that if you collect comic books, you love them. If you have Elvis Presley everywhere in your house, you love Elvis. The same is true with money. If you have lots of money, you love money. In other words, Jesus said where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. This is why Jesus says for us to put our treasure in Heaven and not here on this Earth.

Matthew 6:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
This is very clear, isn't it? Money cannot master you, must not master you. You use your money to serve God and not yourself.

You have others, these are the short passages for convenience. They should illustrate the matter well enough.

In Matthew 6:24: When Jesus talks about money here, the context is the accumulation of treasure or riches.

19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
(Matthew 6:19-21).

In other words, you cannot make riches or treasure, or wealth your master by being rich or by placing your treasure here upon this Earth instead of in Heaven and also make Jesus your master. In the Parables of the Treasure and the Pearl in Matthew 13:44-46, we learn that a merchant who was willing to sell all he had to buy a pearl of great price.

Jesus is that pearl of great price.

We have to live sold out to Him and pick up our cross, and deny ourselves and follow Him. In other words, we cannot place our treasure here upon this Earth where moth or dust does corrupt. Jesus told us to put our treasure in Heaven instead. That treasure....is Jesus.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
The Old Covenant is different from the New, but salvation for all people through all ages came from and comes from the same route...faith in the Messiah, Jesus. The Kings are the Kings just as is stated.
I have no problem forsaking money, but that is not what Scripture demands. We must forsake money where it stands between us and faith in God ,

I agree that all men were saved the same way in both covenants. For there is no other name under Heaven whereby men can be saved. Jesus has always been the way, the truth, and the life. But each covenant has it's own respective commands that are unique to that covenant. The Law of Moses was given to Israel. The commands of the New Covenant come from Jesus and His followers. We are to primarily seek to look to the New Covenant to obey God and not look to the Old. For Jesus made many changes that are different between the Old and the New.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
“And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.” (Mark 4:19).

We learn here that it is the deceitfulness of riches as to one of the reasons why the Word of God was choked. The message of God's Word was not able to be planted in a person's heart to be fruitful in a person's life because they are focused on riches. I have seen this happen. A believer can get off the path in serving Christ to run after riches. But 1 Timothy 6 says we are to flee in being rich and that we are to follow after righteousness instead.

Anyways, the problem is that you are inserting something into this text that is not there or anywhere in the New Testament. The deceitfulness of riches. That is what choked the Word.

In the King James it says not greedy of filthy lucre. This is more appropriate; But if you are die hard on your interpretation from your Modern Translation, you have to understand that if you collect comic books, you love them. If you have Elvis Presley everywhere in your house, you love Elvis. The same is true with money. If you have lots of money, you love money. In other words, Jesus said where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. This is why Jesus says for us to put our treasure in Heaven and not here on this Earth.

When Jesus talks about money here, the context is the accumulation of treasure or riches.

19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
(Matthew 6:19-21).

In other words, you cannot make riches or treasure, or wealth your master by being rich or by placing your treasure here upon this Earth instead of in Heaven and also make Jesus your master. In the Parables of the Treasure and the Pearl in Matthew 13:44-46, we learn that a merchant who was willing to sell all he had to buy a pearl of great price. Jesus is that pearl of great price. We have to live sold out to Him and pick up our cross, and deny ourselves and follow Him.

Look, we can go in circles on this over and over. I once felt a bit like this until I read everything that was to be said as according to Scripture and saw the Truth. Appears you've read, but cannot see the Truth. Money, anything...even food can come between us and God and when it does it is rightly named idolatry. Money is God-given and we must see it that way. When He demands a task of us we must either use that money, give it away or leave it to complete His mission in our lives. You may continue to try to make your point...which I must point out is not being delivered in a godly fashion so as to win over brothers to your superior, most godly position. We always go back to that point because our motivation speaks louder than words.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Look, we can go in circles on this over and over. I once felt a bit like this until I read everything that was to be said as according to Scripture and saw the Truth. Appears you've read, but cannot see the Truth. Money, anything...even food can come between us and God and when it does it is rightly named idolatry. Money is God-given and we must see it that way. When He demands a task of us we must either use that money, give it away or leave it to complete His mission in our lives. You may continue to try to make your point...which I must point out is not being delivered in a godly fashion so as to win over brothers to your superior, most godly position. We always go back to that point because our motivation speaks louder than words.

Sorry, I am not buying it. Why would Jesus tell you to put treasure in Heaven and tell you to not put treasure here upon this Earth? It seems like a violation of what Jesus desires from us if you say we can put our treasures (riches) here upon this Earth.

Jesus says where your treasure is... there will your heart be also.

You really cannot get around that one.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I agree that all men were saved the same way in both covenants. For there is no other name under Heaven whereby men can be saved. Jesus has always been the way, the truth, and the life. But each covenant has it's own respective commands that are unique to that covenant. The Law of Moses was given to Israel. The commands of the New Covenant come from Jesus and His followers. We are to primarily seek to look to the New Covenant to obey God and not look to the Old. For Jesus made many changes that are different between the Old and the New.

Was only trying to help you see the Truth.
Proverbs 22:2 KJV
2 The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of them all.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 25, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Was only trying to help you see the Truth.
Proverbs 22:2 KJV
2 The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of them all.

This does not relate to what Jesus said. Jesus said where your treasure is.... there is where your heart will be also. This is why Jesus said to put your treasure in Heaven and not here upon this Earth. Jesus's words supersede anything the Old Covenant. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?

Yes.

No.

Maybe, it depends.

Other - Please explain.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Truth-Lover

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Truth-Lover

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Truth-Lover

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Truth-Lover

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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