How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith?

Mark Quayle

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Why does God deal with us at all?
It's a good question --something to amaze us.

In some way I don't understand, God has not only made us in his image (i.e. -to resemble him in some way that apparently even the angels do not), but he has made us for the purpose of creating the Bride of Christ, and for whatever else that is also to his Glory. I don't know how, but when we are raised from the dead, as members of the Body of Christ, ("bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh") we will be even above the angels.
 
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tdidymas

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I was recently in online conversation with someone in the process of losing their faith. How would you have answered the questions he raised?

How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith? : cruciformity

It looks to me like the question he has is "If God is good and just, why is there so much evil and suffering in the world?"

I think the answer is 3-fold:

1. By reason of comparison. How would we know how good God is unless there was evil to compare it to? Further, we must experience such evil in order to get the full measure of knowledge. In fact, it is in the times of the worst calamities that love shines the most. And it is in comparison to the ultimate justice (lake of fire judgment) that mercy is glorified in the eyes of those who receive it. And it is in comparison to the agony of hopeless corruption that the grace of God is exemplified to those who receive it. Eph. 1:12 implies we all praise His glory, and the glory of His grace, in the life we live.

2. By reason of Christ's virtue. How can the overcoming nature of Christ be displayed unless there was sin and death to overcome? And particularly the reason for tribulations, whether it is natural evil or moral evil, as the development of a virtuous character requires faith, perseverance, and integrity among other actions. 2 Pet. 1:3-11. Christ, of course, shows the ultimate virtue in the act of sacrificing Himself for the redemption of others. One could say it is also by reason of redemption.

3. By reason of faith. If there was no suffering, death, tribulation, and temptation, how could anyone exercise faith in God? 1 Pet. 1:6-7. Faith is foundational to our relationship with Him, and is a big part of how we glorify Him.

Therefore, in order to fulfill the purposes of God to display in man, the crown of His creation, it is necessary for evil, suffering, death, injustice, and sin to exist. Rom. 8 states that the whole creation "groans like a woman in childbirth" for "the revealing of God's sons." And such is revealed in the worst of circumstances, just as love shines its greatest in the worst of conditions.

A prime example is when Jesus said:
(Mat. 5:44-45) "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Therefore, the conclusion we must draw IMO is that for God's purpose to reveal the nature of His love, mercy, grace, and kindness, the world we live in is the best possible world that could exist. This is my SHORT answer.

This answer, of course can only be accepted by someone who has some faith in the goodness of God. It will never be accepted by an atheist or a cynical person who believes the worst of God, or uses the problem of evil to justify his unbelief.
TD:)
 
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RDKirk

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I just glanced at the link. I don't believe that an argument of any kind is going to help a person like that. I believe that it is more important to ask the Holy Spirit to give you the right words to pierce his heart where he needs it the most. It is quite likely in a completely different area than where he is posturing..

I have said that before, and that is huge to understand. All of us have built bulwarks of rationales to explain the way we are and how we feel, and we defend those bulwarks fiercely, even if acknowledging that we're unhappy behind them. You can't look at another person and see, though, the chink--the tiny tender spot--of that bulwark. You can argue with him all day and never find that spot because it's not a matter to be found by logical argument. It may face in a direction the person never shows to the public. He may not even realize what it is himself, like the dragon Smaug never realizing he had a tiny spot of skin not covered by armored scale.

So I can't look at a prostitute on the street and say, "Oh, her problem is her prostitution. She needs to stop doing that and she'll be right." But she has a bulwark of rationale as to why she's on the street and why she can't get off the street, and I'll never have the answers for all of her problems.

But the Holy Spirit will know that her real problem is something else entirely--perhaps a hurt caused by her father that she can't put behind her--and that what she really needs is to know the soft word of of the Lord: "...a new creation in Christ. All the old will be gone."
 
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Ing Bee

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I was recently in online conversation with someone in the process of losing their faith. How would you have answered the questions he raised?

How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith? : cruciformity

When people are experiencing deep internal pain, whether personal or through empathy, it doesn't always serve them to make arguments, the core pain needs to be addressed. This takes time, care, and clarity, things that the internet does not always promote.

Ultimately the question of suffering (and I would say the lion's share of other big questions) come down to one thing: Is Yahweh trustworthy? The cross is the answer to that question: "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8). If Jesus died for us, in order to benefit us, his credentials are unimpeachable. If the Father didn't spare the Son in order to rescue us, his enemies, his generosity is beyond reproach. Any reply that begins "Yes, but what about...?" has to take a back seat. What we have come to know and believe is the Agape - the self-giving, other-benefitting active care - God has for us in Christ (1 John 4:16). This IS the vindication of God. He is not distant or unconcerned. All the books will be balanced.

In Shakespeare's Othello, the title character comes to believe lies about his beloved wife. Though she is completely innocent of wrong doing, Iago, the deceiver, maliciously casts doubt upon her character. Othello falsely sees an unfaithful adulteress instead of a chaste bride of fact. All the misunderstandings and circumstantial evidence that seemed so damning to her character, are ultimately shown to be shadows and lies. Without trust there can be no love.

The character that God has revealed in regard to himself is one of enduring, faithful, gracious, giving love. When someone rejects that and says "No you're not", he is calling God a liar. He then has to live with anger toward God or suppress the truth about God. My hope for people like the one in the linked post rests in the goodness and persistence of God's love. He can act in our lives when we are not expecting it. Everyone who wants to know him will know him.

If you're able to engage in an extended, caring dialogue, I think it is important to ask why suffering in the world shows that God isn't like what he has shown in Christ. As an interpersonal community of three, Yahweh is inherently relational (1 John 4:8) and sets the pattern for agape love. If we hold God to promises he never made or project onto him our own expectations and preferences, our own standard of goodness and what's best, we cannot know him as he is.
 
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mcarans

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If you're able to engage in an extended, caring dialogue, I think it is important to ask why suffering in the world shows that God isn't like what he has shown in Christ. As an interpersonal community of three, Yahweh is inherently relational (1 John 4:8) and sets the pattern for agape love. If we hold God to promises he never made or project onto him our own expectations and preferences, our own standard of goodness and what's best, we cannot know him as he is.

Thanks for your helpful comment. Unfortunately I only know the person through comments on articles on a website. BTW, may I ask what city is your profile photo showing?

But the Holy Spirit will know that her real problem is something else entirely--perhaps a hurt caused by her father that she can't put behind her--and that what she really needs is to know the soft word of of the Lord: "...a new creation in Christ. All the old will be gone."

Are you sure we are talking about the same God? God walked the earth for 33 years and ate with sinners.

Thanks to you all. You are welcome to join r/cruciformity where we discuss issues in light of the revelation of Jesus who shows us perfectly the character and nature of God.
 
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Sabertooth

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@mcarans , if your friend is receptive, invite him to read the Biblical book, Job. Job was written with his exact contention [called a Theodicy] in mind.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I was recently in online conversation with someone in the process of losing their faith. How would you have answered the questions he raised?

How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith? : cruciformity

To the question “why doesn’t God correct the injustice” my reply would be that God does not put us through more than we can handle. It seems that today God does not reveal Himself as openly and blatantly as He did in the biblical times. It appears that He intends on us believing by faith without seeing. In John 20:29 Jesus says to Thomas blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed. So if God corrected all injustice in the world we would have definitive proof of His existence which I believe is not according to His plan at least not at this time. I don’t know why God might’ve chosen for us to believe solely on faith, I don’t question it. Does God owe us an explanation? If it is God’s plan that we believe solely based on faith how could he reveal His reasons to us without proving His existence and thus foiling His plan? I don’t see any way that He could.

Who can say they have suffered more than Christ? Christ being God willingly suffered unimaginable pain and even worse separation from The Father while He bore our sins on the cross. He did this for us so that we could be saved. I think it’s more important to focus on what God has done for us instead of what He hasn’t done for us. Who can say God owes us anything? But He has given us much more than any of us deserve. If someone is looking for reasons not to believe in God they will surely find many. If someone is looking to find reasons to believe in God they will find many more. People often forget how insignificant this life here on earth really is and how they will look back on this time billions of years from now knowing it was well worth the short amount of suffering they endured here.

As for the question if God is love and does not condemn us why should we fear Him? God tried to give us life in paradise without fear of condemnation with Adam and Eve and they failed to obey Him just has man has always failed to obey Him. God has already foreseen everything. He knew everyone would fail so He made a way for us to be saved. Ultimately He has put the choice on us. If this person is a Calvinist then perhaps he isn’t really questioning God but is questioning double predestination. He’s realizing that Calvin’s theory doesn’t add up which I would agree with. God does not choose who will be saved and who will burn. We do that ourselves. God simply gives us the ability to repent but we must choose to exercise that ability.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I was recently in online conversation with someone in the process of losing their faith. How would you have answered the questions he raised?

How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith? : cruciformity
For starters, it appears he believed in a theological system that can result in a misunderstanding of God's character leading to a false relationship that causes separation.
It is this teaching "man has no free will" taken to its logical conclusion can result in a falling away when the question of "why God, if He is all powerful, can not stop injustice in the world?" The simple answer....

God gave man free will and with that free will is how God judges each and every man and woman.
 
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Sparagmos

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EDIT: If you have objections about the way I worded this response, FireDragon and I are having a discussion about it below, and you can message or reply to me if you'd like to talk about it. I'm still practicing the Faith and I will stumble sometimes. Thank you and bless you all.

It's difficult but these are the questions where the tough love aspects of Christianity need to be enforced.

God does not owe you anything, and He will cast you into the Outer Darkness for insinuating that you are entitled to be in and know His Light. He will also cast you into Outer Darkness for insinuating that the effects of Free Will, allowing others to make their own choices, are His fault for respecting His creation. If you follow the flesh, you will not hear Him no matter how much He communicates with you. God is good, but He is not soft on lawlessness, and He won't let any evil in your heart hear Him.

I think the Parable of the Weeds (Matthew 13:24-43)
and the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30) are what they might be looking for.

To say God is not addressing injustice properly is to say you know the full extent of the damage of the injustice, the entire cause-and-effect that stems from it and the proper means to address injustice that will work the best both in short and long term. To rebuke God would mean you claim to have superiority over a Being that comprehends everything, and if you believe that you are free to reject Him and make your own choices.
This is exactly the kind of response that will reinforce the basic premise of the person who claims that god is unjust. It’s threatening someone for questioning authority. Like fire dragon said above, god comes across as a bully who can’t answer the question of why he allows suffering, and so defensively attacks the person asking the question.
 
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Sparagmos

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There is a balance with tough love, one I have to learn. God is not a bully, but He is also intolerant of sin and does not let it near Him. I apologize if my wording warped what I meant to say, and I will pray on it.
Kudos for being humble and open. If only all people with theological disagreements (including myself) could engage this way.
 
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RDKirk

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To the question “why doesn’t God correct the injustice” my reply would be that God does not put us through more than we can handle.

God frequently puts people through more than they can handle. If someone is actually following Jesus, it's guaranteed that person will have to go through more than he handle. That inevitability is packaged with "pick up your cross and follow Me."

But I like the song lyric, "....Your strength is found at the end of my rope," paraphrasing “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in your weakness.

We don't know the strength of the Lord until we are faced with more than we can handle.
 
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Artra

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Kudos for being humble and open. If only all people with theological disagreements (including myself) could engage this way.
Thank you. I understand where I went wrong now. I'll leave up the post with an update as an example. That's never how I want to respond to people in a crisis of faith; at the time I believed it was appropriate and necessary given the post. I want to be gentle with people in that situation whenever I can.

I also feel like I should say that the situation I'm in with my personal life is very isolated for reasons that for the most part I have to wait to get resolved. I'm currently battling anxiety because of it, and it gets difficult to stay balanced at times. I should make sure my mind is set before I post things like that from now on.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God frequently puts people through more than they can handle. If someone is actually following Jesus, it's guaranteed that person will have to go through more than he handle. That inevitability is packaged with "pick up your cross and follow Me."

But I like the song lyric, "....Your strength is found at the end of my rope," paraphrasing “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in your weakness.

We don't know the strength of the Lord until we are faced with more than we can handle.

More than we can handle on our own perhaps but not more than we can handle when walking with Christ. I believe this is the message in Isaiah 43:2

“"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Ing Bee

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Thanks for your helpful comment. Unfortunately I only know the person through comments on articles on a website. BTW, may I ask what city is your profile photo showing?

That's All Soul's College in Oxford, England
 
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salt-n-light

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I was recently in online conversation with someone in the process of losing their faith. How would you have answered the questions he raised?

How would you answer these questions from someone losing their faith? : cruciformity

He sounds like he have a story behind his questions. There's a sleu of scriptures that I can recite about God's wrath, and a sleu about God's love, how He encourages us to love even our enemies, but its as if something hit him that made him doubt God's nature, when he doesn't see himself fit in the narrative of being a christian.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with me friend, who also left the faith. He would ask questions, but was not listening to the answers. He had the appearance of someone who wanted to conversate, but I was talking to one who had already made a decision and just wanted to let me know.

There's usually a story behind it, and at that point you have to let them work out their salvation with God. He himself have to get to that point to choose to trust God. But keep being a friend and give him space. If he truly loved God, he will not stay away from Him for long, and he will revisit it.

I'm never shy about my faith with my friend though, or any friend. I still pray for them. They need to see an example of how that looks like consistently so that they know who to talk to if certain question/concerns arises.
 
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Ing Bee

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I thought it was Oxford. Did you study there?
Sadly, no. As well as many others, I have an intellectual and spiritual debt to Lewis and Tolkien. Also, who doesn't love gothic architecture ; )
 
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CaspianSails

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I can say that yes, God is a God of love and He is also a God of principle. John 3:17 says that Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. That is a God of love. However, if we reject His act of love then there is no forgiveness of sin. It is really as simple as that. It is like asking why do bad things happen to good people then realizing there are no good people only sinners and some saved by grace that is not their own and faith given by God. I know this is not an answer your friend would look for but in his heart he knows it is the case. Chose God, as the previous poster quoted. God is love and God does love and we also see God as one that judges.
 
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