Please explain if no one is predestined

FreeGrace2

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Jesus clearly told us that all those given to the Son by the Father are drawn to the Son by the Father and that they will come to the Son. Jesus said it was guaranteed and I believe what Jesus said.
As I said, and you dodged or ignored, is that v.45 explains v.44. It's only those who have listened and learned from the Father that come to Jesus. It explained it all.

Men are created in the image of God and are able to make intelligent choices. God does not take that ability away simply by giving them a nature which however strongly tends toward making the right choice.
Then why do Calvinists insist that depraved people MUST be regenerated in order to believe? Seems you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Adam (or anyone else) was free to choose right or free to choose wrong.
I'm not talking about Adam. I'm talking about everyone else. Born with a sin nature. Again, why do Calvinists insist that depraved people must be regenerated in order to believe?

God gave Adam the ability to sin. But He did not "make" Adam sin.
No one needs an "ability" to sin. That's just silly. Saying "no" to a command doesn't take an ability. It's a decision, not an ability. I think Calvinism confuses the two.

By the way - Calvinist routinely say that, for the natural man, "freedom to believe" is only relative. You should read some Luther on that. You probably have.
What does "only relative" mean? Natural man is free to believe or reject. Again, it's a decision, not an ability.

1st - please define what you believe "regeneration" means concisely and in what context you are using it.
Sure. To be regenerated is the same thing as being born again, and is about the new birth. All biblical words. Specifically, I believe that Adam's being created in the image of God means that just as God is Triune, man has 3 parts: body, soul, and spirit. God's warning to Adam and the woman about eating of the forbidden fruit was this: "in the DAY that you eat of it you shall die". Notice that neither Adam nor the woman fell physically dead that day.

I have been told that the original Hebrew says literally, "in the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall die."

I believe there were 2 kinds of death being noted in that warning. The immediate death was spiritual, in which Adam's literal human spirit died, rendering him unable to have fellowship/relationship with God. Which is why he and the woman hid themselves when the Lord appeared in the evening.

So, thanks to Adam, every human being is born physically alive but spiritually dead, meaning their human spirit is non-functioning.

What did Jesus tell the woman at the well in John 4? In order to worship God, one must worship Him in spirit (human) and in truth (God's words to man). I believe Jesus was telling the woman that true worship requires a human spirit, which is what is literally born again at the moment of faith, and allows the believer to fellowship and worship God. That's why unbelievers cannot understand the deeper doctrines (1 Cor 2).

Marvin said: Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit and being sealed for eternity by Him is received because of faith.

Do you believe that Calvinists teach that the Holy Spirit opening of the heart of a man or woman is the same as permanently indwelling and sealing them? If so you are wrong.

I don't believe that.

Define regeneration concisely.
Did.

Are you assuming that either Calvinists or I think that permanent indwelling and sealing by the Holy Spirit are done before believing?
I sure hope not. Because they aren't done before believing.

Men are without excuse for their sin as we are clearly told. You seem to think that God is somehow to be faulted or that it is not fair of God that man was placed under a curse after the fall and that the wrath of God is being revealed in this present age through the abandonment of sinners to more sin - including the sin of unbelief. You need to revisit the first part of Romans on that.
I never even suggested such an idea. My point is that based on reformed doctrine that God chooses who will be saved unconditionally by regenerating the chosen ones so they can believe is what would be unfair of God.

That would actually give all unbelievers the legitimate excuse that they weren't chosen, weren't regenerated, like the chosen ones. Here's the kicker. Even the chosen ones are sinners, and deserve what all unbelievers will get.

If you don't see the unfairness in that, I guess there's no use in further discussion.

All men receive sufficient illumination of truth so that they are without excuse.
This is true, so I'm still confused why Calvinists believe that depraved man must be regenerated in order to believe.

God's giving some men more illumination (as He did for a sinner like Paul on the road to Damascus and a sinner like me on my bed in Sandy, Oregon) isn't unfair as you charge.
I never said anything about what happened to Paul as being unfair.

I would have thought that you'd have this salvation by grace part down by now.:)

Of course I do.

But I will say that you need to say more clearly that "it seems to me that Calvinist beliefs amount to" rather than simply say what they are. You, like so many others here, misrepresent their beliefs.

God knows you misunderstand mine.
Well, I've asked some explanatory questions for you to answer. Hopefully, you'll answer them and clear up the confusion I seem to have.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I never said anything about what happened to Paul as being unfair.
If you don't see the unfairness in that, I guess there's no use in further discussion.
I won't play word games with you.

The fact is that Paul received illumination that others did not.

Call it "enlightening". Call it "opening his heart" as Luke does of Lydia in Acts. Call it "regeneration" as the Calvinists do. Call it "drawing" as both the Lord and I do.

Call it anything your group wants to call it. It is a special revealing to those who will believe that not everyone on earth receives.

You have consistently told me that such special treatment for one person and not for another would give that later person a legitimate complaint concerning salvation come judgment day.

You've made it clear that that's your problem with Reformed theology. You obviously think that God owes every sinner exactly the same amount of enlightenment or drawing or opening of the heart or regeneration.

You are wrong. God owes us nothing. It is perfectly just of God to extend special grace (call it what you want to call it) to some who are guilty enough to go to Hell and withhold such special treatment from others who are equally guilty enough to go to Hell.

You can play word games about the meaning of regeneration all you want. Do it with someone else. The fact is that God is perfectly just to do anything He deems proper to any guilty sinner.

By the way - and I think this will be my last point here.

You are wrong to conflate the term regeneration with being born again. You are wrong even if most post Christians commit the same error.

I've said it before to you and I'll say it again here.

As natural generation is not the same as natural birth - spiritual regeneration is not the same as being born again spiritually.

Being born (or born again) is the "result" of life being given not life itself being given.

Jesus used the specific illustration and term for a reason. When you conflate the generation of life with birth - you, like the abortionist, fail to see that life begins in the secret places sometime before birth - not at birth as you and the abortionists claim.

Jesus made no such mistake and neither do I.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I never said anything about what happened to Paul as being unfair.

If you don't see the unfairness in that, I guess there's no use in further discussion."
I won't play word games with you.
I haven't played any word games.

The fact is that Paul received illumination that others did not.
Again, I never said anything about what happened to Paul was "unfair".

What I clearly said about being unfair is the notion that God chooses UNCONDITIONALLY who He will save, which is the Calvinist doctrine of election.

Yet, we know from many many Scriptures that salvation IS CONDITIONED on faith in Christ. So the "U" in TULIP is rendered null and void by that FACT. And I could easily render the rest of the letters the same. But let's just focus on this one point.

Call it "enlightening". Call it "opening his heart" as Luke does of Lydia in Acts. Call it "regeneration" as the Calvinists do. Call it "drawing" as both the Lord and I do.
You want proof that regeneration FOLLOWS faith in Christ? Of course not, but I'll provide it anyway, from Ephesians 2.

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The last phrase, in red, explains the first phrase, also in red. iow, to be "made alive" is synonymous with "you have been saved". There's no other way to explain why Paul added the last phrase to his sentence.

Further, there is zero evidence in Scripture that a regenerated person (has been made alive) isn't saved, or a saved person isn't regenerated (born again).

So, they go together, at the exact same time. One does NOT follow the other.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The words "through faith" clearly state that faith precedes salvation.

But, the Calvinist way of thinking seems to be "you have believed through regeneration".

Since we are saved through faith, a statement that shows that faith precedes salvation, we know that regeneration is also preceded by faith.

Paul said the same thing in Acts 16:31 in his answer to the jailer: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved".

Call it anything your group wants to call it. It is a special revealing to those who will believe that not everyone on earth receives.
Nonsense. God has revealed Himself to everyone, per Rom 1;19,20. It's up to everyone to respond to that.

You have consistently told me that such special treatment for one person and not for another would give that later person a legitimate complaint concerning salvation come judgment day.
My comments are directed at the WHOLE Calvinist doctrine of election.

You've made it clear that that's your problem with Reformed theology.
My problems with reformed theology is that they cannot provide any verses that support their TULIP claims.

You obviously think that God owes every sinner exactly the same amount of enlightenment or drawing or opening of the heart or regeneration.
Rom 1:19,20 PROVES that God has already done that for every sinner.

You are wrong. God owes us nothing.
I've proven my view from Scripture. And I never said that God owes us anything. However, Rom 1:19,20 proves that no one has any excuse because God HAS revealed Himself to everyone.

It is perfectly just of God to extend special grace (call it what you want to call it) to some who are guilty enough to go to Hell and withhold such special treatment from others who are equally guilty enough to go to Hell.
Look, everyone deserves hell. No question about it. But since God has revealed Himself to everyone, no one has any excuse for going there.

But the erroneous doctrine of Calvinist election has God choosing who to save apart from faith. Salvation IS conditioned on faith in Christ. Calvinism has it exactly backwards.

You can play word games about the meaning of regeneration all you want.
Nonsense. Regeration is being born again, the new birth. I play no word games.

You cannot show from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith in Christ. And I just proved the opposite from Eph 2.

Do it with someone else. The fact is that God is perfectly just to do anything He deems proper to any guilty sinner.
I've never said otherwise. What I've done is show what Scripture says, which is different than what Calvinism says.

You are wrong to conflate the term regeneration with being born again. You are wrong even if most post Christians commit the same error.

I've said it before to you and I'll say it again here.

As natural generation is not the same as natural birth - spiritual regeneration is not the same as being born again spiritually.
[Staff edit].
It's just sad that you can't see that regeneration and being made alive and being born again are the SAME THING.

Being born (or born again) is the "result" of life being given not life itself being given.
Yep. Just more word games.

The words "being born" obviously is a process or event. I never even suggested what you seem to think I've said. When God GIVES eternal life to a person, they HAVE BEEN born again, with new life. They have been regenerated.

Jesus used the specific illustration and term for a reason. When you conflate the generation of life with birth - you, like the abortionist, fail to see that life begins in the secret places sometime before birth - not at birth as you and the abortionists claim.
This is just weird.

Jesus made no such mistake and neither do I.
Certainly Jesus made none, but the Calvinists have made many.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?

We choose whether or not to accept God’s calling. Why would Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if we are all incapable of controlling whether we will believe or not? If Calvin was correct then Paul and Silas should’ve told the jailer when he asked what must I do to be saved, don’t worry about it, if your chosen by God you will be saved if your not then you won’t be saved no matter what you do.
 
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Marvin Knox

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[Staff edit].

Salvation IS conditioned on faith in Christ. Calvinism has it exactly backwards.
Calvinism has it exactly as you stated. No Calvinist would tell you that election and the process of drawing a person to Christ is salvation. It is, instead, just that - a preccess that leads up to faith in the Word of God which is in turn the vehicle for being born again and starting our new life in the Kingdom of God upon the reception of the gospel truth .
Rom 1:19,20 PROVES that God has already done that for every sinner.
God has not done for every sinner what He does for another. Not every sinner on earth has or will receive a blinding visit from the Lord and hear His audible voice proclaiming the truth of the gospel.

Paul is a simple example from the scriptures of the special grace that is given to the elect above and beyond what is given to those who are not among the elect
My comments are directed at the WHOLE Calvinist doctrine of election.
That's the problem. You are so bent on refuting all of Calvinism that you won't receive even what is right in Calvinist thinking.

I don't receive all that Calvinists teach. In fact I openly speak against it - particularly concerning limited atonement. But I receive what is obviously correct and so should you.

The words "through faith" clearly state that faith precedes salvation.
Of course. Every Calvinist believes and teaches that salvation comes through faith.
But, the Calvinist way of thinking seems to be "you have believed through regeneration".
Again - the word regeneration is perhaps misplaced by Calvinists when referring to the drawing process. I know that it is with you when referring to being born again.
Further, there is zero evidence in Scripture that a regenerated person (has been made alive) isn't saved, or a saved person isn't regenerated (born again). So, they go together, at the exact same time. One does NOT follow the other.
Your reasoning is circular. You set up a straw man and kick him around and think no one will notice.

The drawing, enlightening, opening the heart of, goading by the Holy Spirit - or whatever you want to call it obviously comes before being born again by believing the gospel.

The word regeneration is only used a couple of times in the scriptures and yet it is assumed by both sides that it applies to a particular thing that they hold to.

It is even translated wrongly "born again" in some translations of the book of Titus.
You want proof that regeneration FOLLOWS faith in Christ? Of course not, but I'll provide it anyway, from Ephesians 2.

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The last phrase, in red, explains the first phrase, also in red. iow, to be "made alive" is synonymous with "you have been saved". There's no other way to explain why Paul added the last phrase to his sentence.
No - the first phrase merely illustrates the truth of the last phrase.
we know from many many Scriptures that salvation IS CONDITIONED on faith in Christ.
As they say in the Geico commercials - everyone knows that.
So the "U" in TULIP is rendered null and void by that FACT.
The U in TULIP refers to election not to salvation.
Again, I never said anything about what happened to Paul was "unfair".
You have repeated stressed that every man has received the same enlightenment and that is why they are without excuse. It is perfectly true that every man has received enough enlightenment that he is without excuse. It does not follow logically that therefore no man receives more enlightenment than others. Paul is merely an inescapable example of that from the scriptures.

[Staff edit].
I said:
"I never said anything about what happened to Paul as being unfair.
If you don't see the unfairness in that, I guess there's no use in further discussion."
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

But Paul's special enlightenment above and beyond that enlightenment extended to most other men is not unfair - it is grace pure and simple. All people who come to Christ do so by similar if different acts of grace used by the Father to draw them to the Son.

[Staff edit].
 
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FreeGrace2

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[Staff edit].

Calvinism has it exactly as you stated.
Of course. I understand it's theology, and have shown why it's unbiblical.

No Calvinist would tell you that election and the process of drawing a person to Christ is salvation.
What? If election or choice isn't about being chosen, elected for salvation, then just what are "the elect" chosen FOR? Please explain.

It is, instead, just that - a preccess that leads up to faith in the Word of God which is in turn the vehicle for being born again and starting our new life in the Kingdom of God upon the reception of the gospel truth .
Oh, so it's just a choice by God that leads "up to faith". Which is, of course, nothing other than salvation.

So, still playing word games, I see.

God has not done for every sinner what He does for another.
Rom 1:19,20 says otherwise.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

All the red words lead up to the conclusion of the last 6 red words.

This was done for everyone. Not just a select, elect few.

Not every sinner on earth has or will receive a blinding visit from the Lord and hear His audible voice proclaiming the truth of the gospel.
Do you really understand what Jesus even said to Paul on that dusty road? It WAS about election, but what was the subject? What was Jesus electing Paul FOR?

Paul is a simple example from the scriptures of the special grace that is given to the elect above and beyond what is given to those who are not among the elect
That's the problem.
If Paul is an example, sounds as if ALL the select, elect have been personally visited by Jesus in a blinding light. Are you kidding?!

You are so bent on refuting all of Calvinism that you won't receive even what is right in Calvinist thinking.
Hardly. I know that Calvinists do understand the good news that Christ is the Son of God, died for all sins, and saves those who believe in Him for it. However, then they get into the weeds in their confusion over election, etc.

I don't receive all that Calvinists teach. In fact I openly speak against it - particularly concerning limited atonement. But I receive what is obviously correct and so should you.
I have. But election ain't one of them.

Every Calvinist believes and teaches that salvation comes through faith.
Yet, all 5 pointers believe that election is to salvation. And from that, the obvious conclusion is that election is being chosen to believe.

Again - the word regeneration is perhaps misplaced by Calvinists when referring to the drawing process. I know that it is with you when referring to being born again.
No it isn't. We are a "new creation" or "new creature" per 2 Cor 5:17 by means of regeneration. It's also called the new birth.

I said:
"Further, there is zero evidence in Scripture that a regenerated person (has been made alive) isn't saved, or a saved person isn't regenerated (born again). So, they go together, at the exact same time. One does NOT follow the other."
Your reasoning is circular. You set up a straw man and kick him around and think no one will notice.
There is nothing "circular" in my post. Can you prove that regeneration and salvation are separate issues and a person can be one without the other? Please answer, and we'll see whether my statement is circular.

Either they go together or they can be separated. You tell me.

The drawing, enlightening, opening the heart of, goading by the Holy Spirit - or whatever you want to call it obviously comes before being born again by believing the gospel.
It isn't obvious. That's just a reformed talking point; one that can't be shown from Scripture. It's a construct only.

The word regeneration is only used a couple of times in the scriptures and yet it is assumed by both sides that it applies to a particular thing that they hold to.
You've proven nothing from Scripture that supports your claims.

God created Adam trichotomous, just as God is Triune. That is what is meant by "in the image of God". When Adam rebelled, he literally died "on that day", but the death wasn't physical; it was spiritual. His human spirit is what died. That's why everyone born physically is spiritually dead. Their human nature is dead, non-functional. That's why they need to be born again. Their human spirit needs to be born again, a new birth, a regeneration. Which makes the believer a new creature/creation.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman that those who worship God "must worship Him in spirit and in truth". I am convinced He was speaking of having a living functioning human spirit in order to worship God.

So, to be born again, or to be regenerated, all of which is the new birth, is literally the dead human spirit being regenerated so that the believer can worship God according to God's plan.

It is even translated wrongly "born again" in some translations of the book of Titus.
If true, please cite the verses and explain what the word should be translated.

No - the first phrase merely illustrates the truth of the last phrase.
You've agreed with me then. The last phrase is equal to the first phrase. Thanks.

The U in TULIP refers to election not to salvation.
All elections are FOR something. You need to explain for what purpose God chooses people.

You have repeated stressed that every man has received the same enlightenment and that is why they are without excuse.
I've never used your word "enlightenment". I have used the biblical words found in nRom 1:19,20, which SAYS that no one has any excuse.

It is perfectly true that every man has received enough enlightenment that he is without excuse. It does not follow logically that therefore no man receives more enlightenment than others.
I never even suggested such.

Those who pay attention to God's teaching, will come to Christ, per John 6:45.
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

iow, everyone has been taught, per Rom 1:19,20, but only those who responded to the teaching will come to Christ.

Paul is merely an inescapable example of that from the scriptures.
He is an example of what election is about, sure. But why do you keep bringing Paul up when I NEVER said anything about unfairness in regard to him?

Don't play games by telling me you did not refer to Paul or that his case isn't pertinent to the special grace Calvinists talk about in the doctrine of unconditional election.
I never said anything about UNFAIRNESS concerning Paul's election.

But you seem unwilling to explain to what Paul was chosen for.

I said:
"I never said anything about what happened to Paul as being unfair.
If you don't see the unfairness in that, I guess there's no use in further discussion."
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.
The words are clear enough. btw, each sentence was in a different context, and in your post, you conflated them together as if they were said together. Slick.

But Paul's special enlightenment above and beyond that enlightenment extended to most other men is not unfair - it is grace pure and simple.
Did Jesus meet you on some dusty road and blind you for 3 days?

All men who come to Christ do so by similar if different acts of grace used by the Father to draw them to the Son.
It's all clear from Rom 1:19,20 and John 6:45 about who comes to Jesus.
 
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Marvin Knox

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What? If election or choice isn't about being chosen, elected for salvation, then just what are "the elect" chosen FOR? Please explain.
Do you think I believe that election is not about salvation? Where did you get that?
Oh, so it's just a choice by God that leads "up to faith". Which is, of course, nothing other than salvation..... So, still playing word games, I see.
Leading up to faith is not salvation. Faith in the gospel is salvation.
Rom 1:19,20 says otherwise.
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
All the red words lead up to the conclusion of the last 6 red words.
This was done for everyone. Not just a select, elect few.
What has God's enlightenment of all men have to do with His further enlightenment of the elect?
Do you really understand what Jesus even said to Paul on that dusty road? It WAS about election, but what was the subject? What was Jesus electing Paul FOR?
It doesn't matter if Paul was being elected to be the most prolific apostle in the writing of the scriptures or whether he was being elected to be the head janitor at Joel Osteen's church. It's immaterial to the discussion at hand.

Paul did not believe. In fact he hated the gospel and all it stood for. Paul was saved through a special visitation by God that the non elect do not get. It was not "unfair" of God to give Paul that special revelation and it is not fair that He gives all of the elect special revelation in order to save them - while passing many others by. [Staff edit].

Yet, all 5 pointers believe that election is to salvation. And from that, the obvious conclusion is that election is being chosen to believe.
Of course - what's your point?
"Further, there is zero evidence in Scripture that a regenerated person (has been made alive) isn't saved, or a saved person isn't regenerated (born again). So, they go together, at the exact same time. One does NOT follow the other."
Your logic is flawed. You are also continuing with the teaching that birth is generation. It is not.

I will say one more time since you seem to have missed it the first time. I do not believe that what the Calvinists label as regeneration is an instantaneous one time event. I believe it is a process that can include anything from conviction leading to kicking against the goads for a time to an appearance on the road to Damascus.

However I do believe that being born again is a well defined one time event and the vehicle for that rebirth is the Word of God just as Peter tells us.

[Staff edit].
 
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FreeGrace2

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Do you think I believe that election is not about salvation? Where did you get that?
Well, that's my point. You DO believe that election IS about being chosen for salvation. And don't forget that the "U" in TULIP means Unconditional election, meaning there are no conditions upon which God chooses who to save.

Yet Scripture is full of verses that tell us clearly that salvation/eternal life is based on faith. That is a condition, if you didn't know that.

1 Cor 1:21 -For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Don't you see that the red words demonstrate God's CHOICE of who He saves?

So this verse proves that God saves people on the condition of believing in Christ.

And TULIP collapses.

So, given the reformed view, those facing the lake of fire at the Great White Throne judgment would have a legitimate excuse for being cast into the LoF. They simply weren't chosen for salvation, like the other sinners who WERE chosen for heaven.

[Staff edit].

I said:
"Oh, so it's just a choice by God that leads "up to faith". Which is, of course, nothing other than salvation..... So, still playing word games, I see."
Leading up to faith is not salvation. Faith in the gospel is salvation.
I was using your own words, about "leading up to faith". And I never said leading up to fatih is salvation, but you can't deny that "leading up to faith" IS "leading up to salvation", so you'are still playing word games.

What has God's enlightenment of all men have to do with His further enlightenment of the elect?
It gets their attention as to the FACT of who God is and that He exists, and that they should be thankful to Him.

It doesn't matter if Paul was being elected to be the most prolific apostle in the writing of the scriptures or whether he was being elected to be the head janitor at Joel Osteen's church. It's immaterial to the discussion at hand.
Actually, it's the very essence of the discussion. It's about WHAT election is really about.

I asked in my previous post that you explain what election is about. From your first response to my post you basically admitted that you believe that election is about salvation. Yet you cannot provide ANY verse that actually links salvation with election.

And with ALL of Paul's testimony about that day on the Damascus road, he NEVER ever mentioned salvation as to what he was chosen for. But he very clearly did mention to what he was chosen for. And it wasn't salvation.

Paul did not believe. In fact he hated the gospel and all it stood for. Paul was saved through a special visitation by God that the non elect do not get.
Did you get this special visitation by God? How many of your Calvinist friends got this special visitation by God?

I was saved at 7, when my mother explained the gospel to me and I believed who Jesus Christ was and what He did for me on the cross. No special visitation by God.

Does that discount my salvation in the eyes of Calvinists?

It was not "unfair" of God to give Paul that special revelation and it is not fair that He gives all of the elect special revelation in order to save them - while passing many others by.
Of course I understand the discussion. And I reject your so-called special revelation. The matter is real simple. God has revealed Himself and His divine attributes. Those who pay attention (Rom 1:19,20), listen and learn (John 6:45) are drawn to Christ.

God makes a promise to mankind; salvation through faith in Christ. Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

So, those who never hear the gospel obviously weren't paying attention or listening or learning. Why should God provide any further revelation to those who are not interested?

However, Paul was zealous for God. So he was paying attention and had listened/learned. But because he was chosen for service, appointed to apostle, Jesus appeared to him to affirm that appointment.

Actss 1:22 - beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

1 Cor 9:1 - Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?

[Staff edit].

You are the one who described Paul as an "example" of election to salvation. But He's the ONLY one elected to service (the true doctrine of election). So he's NO example at all. He's a one-off. Not an example.

Don't you know that an example means there are lots more in the bin?

Of course - what's your point?
My point is that election is not to salvation. And you can't provide any verse that says that it is.

I said:
"Further, there is zero evidence in Scripture that a regenerated person (has been made alive) isn't saved, or a saved person isn't regenerated (born again). So, they go together, at the exact same time. One does NOT follow the other."
Your logic is flawed. You are also continuing with the teaching that birth is generation. It is not.
You keep missing my point. Show me any example of anyone in Scripture who was either regenerated but not saved, or saved but not regenerated.

Prove that they don't go together.

I will say one more time since you seem to have missed it the first time. I do not believe that what the Calvinists label as regeneration is an instantaneous one time event. I believe it is a process that can include anything from conviction leading to kicking against the goads for a time to an appearance on the road to Damascus.
Well, we then disagree. Then explain the difference between the "new birth" and regeneration, since you see them as so different.

However I do believe that being born again is a well defined one time event and the vehicle for that rebirth is the Word of God just as Peter tells us.
Can you explain what specifically has been born again?

[Staff edit].
 
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Marvin Knox

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You keep missing my point. Show me any example of anyone in Scripture who was either regenerated but not saved, or saved but not regenerated.
Look - I have said that I look at the regeneration sequence as a process and not necessarily as a one time spark of life as Calvinists seem to want to present it.

I have said that what the Calvinists choose to call regeneration is all about is God working prior to the new birth which comes upon reception of the truth of the gospel by an individual. That personal reception is necessary because salvation is through faith. Election itself has to do with whom the Lord will enlighten enough to bring him to that place of salvation through faith.

I have said clearly that, Calvinists when talking about regeneration are not talking about the actual moment of exercising saving faith but rather a drawing by the Father to the Son because the person is being given to the Son by the Father.

Probably it would be better for Calvinists who wish to dialog about these concepts with people like you to use a biblical term like "drawing" or "convicting" or, best of all, "opening the heart" for this pre-saving faith work of God.

The reason it would be better has been amply illustrated.

[Staff edit].
 
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Election itself has to do with whom the Lord will enlighten enough to bring him to that place of salvation through faith.
[Staff edit].

I do want to prove to you that election has NOTHING to do with salvation. None at all.

Election is to service, not salvation.

I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant.

Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.

Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.

Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

II The original 12 apostles were chosen/appointed for service:

Mark 3:14 - He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

III Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

IV Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

There are 7 different examples of election, and none are for salvation:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.


4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”.

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.


1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

None of these examples of election were for salvation. All of them are for service.

Now, your turn, if you so choose.

Provide any verse that directly shows being elected is to being chosen for salvation.

Oh, and please stick with the word group regarding election:

Noun - ekloge
Verb - eklegomai
Adjective - eklektos

Please don't bother with 2 Thess 2:13, as the word there is "haireomai", which is not part of the word group for election. :) Also, the verse doesn't say chooses who will be saved. That concept is found in 1 Cor 1:21. The verse is about God choosing HOW a person will be saved. Iow, the method of salvation, which is by faith.
 
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Marvin Knox

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What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?
"Who" is God - the author of our faith.

"What" is the drawing of some guilty people to the Son by the Father - and His opening their hearts in a way that is not universally experienced by the guilty people of this world.

Salvation for the elect of God is by grace through a faith brought about by an act or acts of a merciful God - even as He justly passes others by with such merciful acts above and beyond His previously administered universal enlightenment to the guilty people of this world.

We know that such special extended grace for His elect is the case because of the testimony of Jesus and the many examples in the scriptures.

We in the body of Christ universally acknowledge these truths every day simply by praying to God that He especially open the eyes of our loved ones and those who are to come under the sound of the preaching of the gospel.

Some in the body of Christ bow their neck against these truths even as they themselves enter into the very provision of these truths - on behalf of those they witness to.

It's really an amazing phenomenon.

I suppose it may be because to verbally acknowledge these truths would be to, in some small way, give credence to some of the tenets of the dreaded so called Calvinism they so much despise.

Or perhaps for some it is simply that they so much want to affirm with William Ernest Henley that:

"I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul."

Wishing to somehow rise above the sovereignty of the God in whom they live and move and have their being - they shipwreck their theology along the way and deny many of the most basic doctrines of grace.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Phoebe Ann said:
What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?
"Who" is God - the author of our faith.

"What" is the drawing of some guilty people to the Son by the Father - and His opening their hearts in a way that is not universally experienced by the guilty people of this world.
The biblical answer to Phoebe Ann's question is whether a person has listened and learned" from God, per Jesus in John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

God has taught everyone that He exists and He has taught everyone His divine attributes as well.

Rom 1:19,20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

The red words are what God has taught humanity. The blue words are the consequences of not paying attention: listening and learning from the Father.

Salvation for the elect of God is by grace through a faith brought about by an act or acts of a merciful God - even as He justly passes others by with such merciful acts above and beyond His previously administered universal enlightenment to the guilty people of this world.
This Calvinistic explanation has God saving some by mercy, yet justly passing others by.

God's justice for the sins of humanity had to be satisfied (propitiated). Jesus did that.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning (propitiating) sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is so God is able to "have mercy on them all", per Rom 11:32.

So, the question that Calvinists cannot answer is why God would save some by "mercy", yet be "justified" in passing others by.

The answer is simple. In God's plan of salvation of mankind, He determined that all who place their faith/trust in Christ for salvation WILL be saved. It's that simple.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is a clear statement about who God chooses to save: believers.

And it's an act of grace, per Eph 2:8.

"Salvation for the elect of God"
Not exactly. This statement from above is incorrect. Let's look at Eph 1:4 -
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

So, who are the "us"? Eph 1:19 clearly defines the "us":
"and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength"

So, there you have it. God "chose believers in Him...to be holy and blameless". That's what v.4 is saying.

So the phrase "salvation for the elect of God" has it backwards. One is saved before they are elect or chosen. God chose believers for the purpose of being holy and blameless, which is service to God.

1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

We know that such special extended grace for His elect is the case because of the testimony of Jesus and the many examples in the scriptures.
In fact, there are NO verses in Scripture that say that anyone is elected to salvation. There are many verses that clearly indicate that election is to service, which was clearly laid out in post #54.
 
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Marvin Knox

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the question that Calvinists cannot answer is why God would save some by "mercy", yet be "justified" in passing others by.
The question of why God only chooses to save some when He could have well saved all is a question to be addressed to God when we meet Him face to face and to be posed alike by Calvinists, Arminians, cultists, and whatever you are calling yourself these days. The question is not just for Calvinists to struggle with.
The answer is simple. In God's plan of salvation of mankind, He determined that all who place their faith/trust in Christ for salvation WILL be saved. It's that simple.
It is that simple. That's why all manner of evangelicals including Calvinists know it and preach it.
So, there you have it. God "chose believers in Him...to be holy and blameless".
There were no believers in Him for Him to choose before the foundation of the world when His choice was made.

Your obvious and frequent verbal ploy is tantamount to my saying something like - yesterday I chose to detail the cleaned and polished car that now sits in my driveway but I did not chose to wash my dirty yellow car.

It's another of your many silly word games.
In fact, there are NO verses in Scripture that say that anyone is elected to salvation. There are many verses that clearly indicate that election is to service
Choosing someone who will eventually fall into sin to acceptably serve God in this life or for eternity in His presence includes choosing them to receive His forgiveness through the justification process. Which process includes drawing them, opening their hearts, and justifying them through their belief on Christ.

***** And that decision to believe on Christ - as we've established a great many times - is their choice to make and Calvinists all say the same thing.

As you've been told many times - Calvinists all say that God uses means to bring to pass the things He has predestined to occur. In this case those means include the choices made by the men in question out of their ("relatively") free will.

I didn't address my post to you. But, since you chose to engage me concerning my post to Phoebe, I have answered you this one and final time.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"the question that Calvinists cannot answer is why God would save some by "mercy", yet be "justified" in passing others by."
The question of why God only chooses to save some when He could have well saved all is a question to be addressed to God when we meet Him face to face and to be posed alike by Calvinists, Arminians, cultists, and whatever you are calling yourself these days. The question is not just for Calvinists to struggle with.
No one needs to struggle with why God chooses to save some and not all. The Bible tells us clearly why He saves anyone.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

He is pleased to save believers. Yet, the Calvinists have to scratch their heads and still wonder why He chose to "give faith" to some but not others. That's isn't the issue, and the Bible never says He gives faith to some.

There were no believers in Him to choose before the foundation of the world when His choice was made.
Oh, you mean God isn't omniscient? C'mon, mon. He could easily choose before the foundation of the world to save everyone who believes. Which is what the verse says anyway. I proved that the "us" are believers.

iow, God chooses believers for service: to be holy and blameless, which I also proved from the verses I included.

Choosing someone who will eventually fall into sin to acceptably serve God in this life or for eternity in His presence includes choosing them to receive His forgiveness through the justification process. Which process includes drawing them, opening their hearts, and justifying them through their belief on Christ.
Eph 1:4 says clearly that He chooses believers to be holy and blameless. This isn't about getting saved, but living a life that is holy and blameless.

And I proved my view that election is about being chosen for service in post #54.
 
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Marvin Knox

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He could easily choose before the foundation of the world to save everyone who believes.
No - He could easily choose before the foundation of the world those who will believe. Enough with your silly word games.

Don't look now - you are making the case for the predestination of all things which occur in God's creation.

There was - before the foundation of the world - absolutely NO chance that everything God knew would occur would not indeed occur.

The doctrine of the omniscience of God demands the doctrine that all things which occur in history were predestined to occur from before the foundation of the world.

The omnipresence of the God in whom we have our being demands that God act in particular ways or nothing will occur in His creation - His creation which, like us, has it's being in the infinite God who fills Heaven and earth.

The doctrine of the aseity of God shows that God is not constrained to act in any way He does not choose to act.

He is, therefore, said to be the One Who predestines all things.

This is all rather basic stuff. It seems that you've either missed it in your deliberations or perhaps just set it on the shelf while you bash some straw men.
 
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I said:
"He could easily choose before the foundation of the world to save everyone who believes."
No - He could easily choose before the foundation of the world those who will believe. Enough with your silly word games.
Silly words games, huh? So, how's "save everyone who believes" different than "those who will believe"??

There was - before the foundation of the world - absolutely NO chance that everything God knew would occur would not indeed occur.
I never said otherwise.

The doctrine of the omniscience of God demands the doctrine that all things which occur in history were predestined to occur from before the foundation of the world.
Actually, not. The error from Calvinism is to equate sovereignty with omniscience. Or worse, elevate God's sovereignty over His other attributes. They are all equal. Not some being "more equal" than others.

God has always known EVERYTHING that will occur. He even knows the intentions of everyone, so has every opportunity to thwart anything that He doesn't want to occur.

But one needs to define "predestine". Calvinists usually mean "causes", while God's omniscience only means He knows and has permitted what will occur.

The omnipresence of the God in whom we have our being demands that God act in particular ways or nothing will occur in His creation
No, it doesn't. Where do you get your ideas? God's omnipresence means that God is present everywhere. That doesn't "demand" anything. Beyond His being everywhere.

The doctrine of the aseity of God shows that God is not constrained to act in any way He does not choose to act.
What is this "aseity of God" doctrine? Never heard of it.

He is, therefore, said to be the One Who predestines all things.
Said by whom? If in Scripture, please provide the verse address.

This is all rather basic stuff.
Right. Basic Calvinism 101.

It seems that you've either missed it in your deliberations or perhaps just set it on the shelf while you bash some straw men.
Well, how have I bashed your theology? By asking for verses that actually say what Calvinism claims? That's not bashing in any sense.

But I am interested in this aseity of God doctrine. Can't wait for an explanation. And where it occurs in Scripture.
 
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