Bible discussion gone wrong

brinny said:

The bottom line is that i can NOT "out-give" God. God will "chase us down" and "overcome" us with blessings when we are obedient and generous and wise-hearted (when we "fear" and thus "obey" Him).

This verse below actually DOES happen. Is this what you are referring to?

"And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God." ~Deut 28:2

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Meanwhile many starve and go homeless as you work on the details.

brinny said:

Where is that written?

Is it a "sin" to be "rich"?

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All inequality is sin if we are to treat others as our equal. The NT replaced the OT.

OldWiseGuy said:

I think we share our wealth pretty fairly in America. The devil is in the details.

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But we prefer luxury over the needs of others.

VinceField said:

I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.


I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.


It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.


He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.


What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

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From reading your post, it sounds as if you bought up the "prosperity gospel" linking it to words spoken by your uncle......concerning giving to the church and being blessed for it...

There is no such thing as a prosperity gospel......It is a term used, by those who deem themselves holy and learned, against those that they feel are less holy and unlearnt in the ways of prosperity as it relates to salvation. Some other terms the holier used in conjunction is the Genie gospel.....the vending machine gospel.......the santa clause gospel...... the name it and claim it group......the blab it and grab it saints........the give it and then God will deliver it apostles.... If you got money you must of given a lot honey group......etc..

Of course those who have guarded there hearts and minds are unmoved by these words... But these are clearly terms meant to offend and not to bring peace and joy to the one receiving the words.

You could have may your point using scripture alone with no need to use outside terms and phrases. So the question is......why did you feel the need to use terms meant to offend and degrade the group the term is meant to define? We could easily say that we dont believe that God will bless us above what we need...... no need to use terms that are offensive to some.

That being said.....even if the words arent offensive....I dont see how one, filled with love, could know that they contributed to the pain of another, and not wish to try and make it right.

This isnt about holding unto truth.....it is about offending a brother and trying to make it right.

If it were me, I would go to my brother before going to the alter......to discuss any alt there may be between us.

What we do the the least....

Dave L said:

But let the hungry one starve?

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They are neighbors too....... I desire for the ones who now starve to have so much to eat that they have to start giving some away. Do you desire less for them?

RaymondG said:

They are neighbors too....... I desire for the ones who now starve to have so much to eat that they have to start giving some away. Do you desire less for them?

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All I'm saying is that love can't wait in many situations while you try to straighten out people's beliefs.

Dave L said:

All I'm saying is that love can't wait in many situations while you try to straighten out people's beliefs.

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Love also does not work less so to appear as the poor man and give little. Those that are strong should work as hard as they can and make as much money as they can, so they can then bear the infirmities of the weak.

RaymondG said:

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you would desire for them to be rich and never want for anything......you would desire for them to prosper even as their soul Prospers.

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I do, but they won't listen to me.

RaymondG said:

Love also does not work less so to appear as the poor man and give little. Those that are strong should work as hard as they can and make as much money as they can, so they can then bare the infirmities of the weak.

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I've tried to do this on these forums and am criticized for it ("bare" the infirmities i.e. the sloth, drug addiction, etc.)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Dave L said:

But let the hungry one starve?

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Hunger is the least of the problems of the poor (in the west). Many are actually overfed and overweight (which can contribute to their problems). Regarding the starving abroad the despotic governments and/or warring factions cause many relief efforts to fail, and at great cost. Wasting effort and money isn't good stewardship.

VinceField said:

I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.


I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.


It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.


He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.


What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

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So, quick background. In the past, I have been accused of being a prosperity teacher AND of being against prosperity... in the same thread. Personally I feel like that is a sign that I'm probably on the right track, lol.

In a nutshell, I believe it is not one or the other: spiritual prosperity, natural prosperity, but both. However, there IS a proper order/priority to it (hint: spiritual first) and when that gets out of whack we see the issues that folks who are against "prosperity gospel" point to. I believe that we can be prosperous AND generous, but it starts with generosity (if you can't be generous with a little you won't be with a lot). What it all boils down to is not your bank account balance, or how much stuff you have/don't have, but your heart. Throughout the Bible it is clear that first and foremost God is after our hearts.

And that is where my observation/advice in your situation starts. In my experience the mistake those who argue against prosperity make over and over is a focus on the material/natural side of things. In this manner they are no different than those who abuse the Biblical concept of prosperity. Why would you debate any biblical concept and ignore the most important part, the heart? The attitude toward and the interpretation of the scriptures that are most often used focus on the material. This leads to silly, impossible statements like, "any material prosperity is wrong". Who defines that? How can we live without any form of material prosperity? Those who type such things do so from a computer or phone that ARE material prosperity (especially compared to the rest of the world). We are supposed to share with our neighbor, but what if our neighbor has material prosperity already, if we share with him wouldn't we be adding to it, and therefore making his spiritual situation worse? Oh, but it is only for the poor and needy, right? And people have never lied or mislead in order to gain, what happens when you give to someone like that? None of these arguments make any sense, because none consider the heart.

This is where I (personally) think your uncle gets upset. Arguing based solely on the material ignores the true heart and assumes the worst in people based only on the outward. If you have xyz material things or are worth x dollars or more, you are bad, and here are the scriptures to prove it. None of that takes a second to consider how much the person has given, how many they have helped. If you have a net worth of 10 million, but you have quietly given away over 100 million in your life, you are bad. It also does not consider the sacrifices that a person made to get there. It is unfair and not right to criticize what someone has accomplished when you are unaware of the sacrifices they made to get there, and more so, unwilling to make the same sacrifices yourself. When you've made tremendous sacrifice and tried to be obedient to God and a blessing to others and someone comes around ignoring that (or giving it lip service) and then points to scripture in an attempt to tell you you are wrong? Heck yeah, that would upset someone... That is my perspective, take it or leave it.

Should you apologize? Yes. Not because of what I outlined, but because he is upset and it doesn't hurt anything to apologize. You don't have to agree with him or me to apologize and it really doesn't cost you anything, but not apologizing could cost you a lot.

Dave L said:

= = =. The laws of sowing and reaping bring prosperity not to be hoarded but shared. What is mine is yours etc.

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I have a lot of money (but I'm not "rich" by bible standards) and I loan it to others at low interest. I get to retain ownership of it and others get to use it for a small fee. I see that as good stewardship.

Think of it as a cow that I own but allow the poor to milk for a small fee. As long as I own it there will be milk for many. However if I give the cow to them they will likely butcher and eat it in one big mindless feast and...no more milk. Thoughts?

Dave L said:

But we prefer luxury over the needs of others.

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One man's luxury is another man's necessity.

Buying stuff provides employment for others, and keeps the system i.e. "The Goose", laying those eggs.

The writings of Malachi (not Micah ) is not just about tithing by giving the best of oneself to God. The people were talking about what profit is it to serve the Lord. God said that they were being stubborn toward Him Malachi 3:13-14. To me that means seeking His blessings isn’t about material things because when we give our best to God He gives His best to us, which is not material but spiritual.
A lot of circles of Christianity tried to follow the rules pf the ‘prosperity doctrine’ (keep in mind where there are rules there are also rulers) but they ended up in bankruptcy. Totem Christianity ‘didn’t work for them’ so they left the church. Never having been blessed spiritually because they had never been taught the deeper meaning. They left because they were not adequately ‘paid’ for there services. I think that’s the meaning behind the writings of Malachi that somehow gets used for the tithing sermon. If that sermon was taken to it’s logical conclusion we should give God 2 1/2 hours of our time every day as tythe to see the return.

OldWiseGuy said:

One man's luxury is another man's necessity.

Buying stuff provides employment for others, and keeps the system i.e. "The Goose", laying those eggs.

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We're talking about the hardcore helpless and what we spend our luxury dollars on instead.

OldWiseGuy said:

I have a lot of money (but I'm not "rich" by bible standards) and I loan it to others at low interest. I get to retain ownership of it and others get to use it for a small fee. I see that as good stewardship.

Think of it as a cow that I own but allow the poor to milk for a small fee. As long as I own it there will be milk for many. However if I give the cow to them they will likely butcher and eat it in one big mindless feast and...no more milk. Thoughts?

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Interest is Business. Not giving of your substance.

OldWiseGuy said:

Hunger is the least of the problems of the poor (in the west). Many are actually overfed and overweight (which can contribute to their problems). Regarding the starving abroad the despotic governments and/or warring factions cause many relief efforts to fail, and at great cost. Wasting effort and money isn't good stewardship.

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I can see you've been around the block a few times.....

Dave L said:

We're talking about the hardcore helpless and what we spend our luxury dollars on instead.

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I'm all for triage regarding the poor.

Dave L said:

I can see you've been around the block a few times.....

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I have indeed.

Dave L said:

Interest is Business. Not giving of your substance.

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Interest is income, of which some goes to charity. Regarding charitable giving, one shouldn't be pressed to make up for what others don't give.