Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

timothyu said:
In the way the young man was troubled at giving up his wealth, would the US as an example be willing to give up it's power and position to become a nation that loved all others as self?

I've no idea; you'll have to ask them.

Just Another User · Feb 24, 2019

Some more Early Christians on money and possessions.

Letter to Barnabas (c.100 AD) "You shall share all things with your neighbor; you shall not call things your own; for if you are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more of those things which are corruptible! "

Apology of Aristides (c.125 AD) "And if there is among them any that is poor and needy, and if they have no spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of food."

"Polycarp of Smyrna - Letter to the Philippians (c.125 AD) When you can do good, defer it not, because alms delivers from death... If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen."

Letter to Diognetus (c.130 AD) ( the context is describing Christians in general) "They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all"

The Octavius (c.200 AD) "And yet who can be poor if he does not want, if he does not crave for the possessions of others, if he is rich towards God? He rather is poor, who, although he has much, desires more... Therefore, as he who treads a road is the happier the lighter he walks, so happier is he in this journey of life who lifts himself along in poverty, and does not breathe heavily under the burden of riches."

"And yet even if we thought wealth useful to us, we should ask it of God. Assuredly He might be able to indulge us in some measure, whose is the whole; but we would rather despise riches than possess them"

Clement of Alexandria - Who Is The Rich Man That Might be Saved? (c.205 AD)

"Because, although wealth is of itself sufficient to puff up and corrupt the souls of its possessors, and to turn them from the path by which salvation is to be attained, they stupefy them still more, by inflating the minds of the rich with the pleasures of extravagant praises, and by making them utterly despise all things except wealth, on account of which they are admired.. from which (wealth) somewhat ought rather to be removed and taken away as being a dangerous and deadly disease."

"if you have worldly wealth, if you have brothers allied by blood and other pledges, abandon the whole wealth of these which leads to evil"

"For each of us He gave His life the equivalent for all. This He demands from us in return for one another. And if we owe our lives to the brethren, and have made such a mutual compact with the Saviour, why should we any more hoard and shut up worldly goods, which are beggarly, foreign to us and transitory? Shall we shut up from each other what after a little shall be the property of the fire."

Cyprian of Carthage - Epistle 3 (c.250 AD)

"A blind love of one's own property... departing when their wealth fettered them like a chain... And therefore the Lord the teacher of good things, forewarning for the future time, says, If you will be perfect, go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. If rich men did this, they would not perish by their riches; if they laid up treasure in heaven, they would not now have a domestic enemy and assailant. Heart and mind and feeling would be in heaven, if the treasure were in heaven; nor could he be overcome by the world who had nothing in the world whereby he could be overcome. He would follow the Lord loosed and free, as did the apostles, and many in the times of the apostles, and many who forsook both their means and their relatives, and clave to Christ with undivided ties."

"But how can they follow Christ, who are held back by the chain of their wealth? Or how can they seek heaven, and climb to sublime and lofty heights, who are weighed down by earthly desires? They think that they possess, when they are rather possessed; as slaves of their profit, and not lords with respect to their own money, but rather the bond-slaves of their money. "

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Der Alter said:
And you have determined that google is a credible source, how?
<J0>Rick Warren, may give away all his money to the poor. I don't know. There is no official tax document saying what he does. It says he lives off 10% of his income. Even 10% of 25 million networth is 2 million and a half. That is still pretty luxurious.
Here is what a tax expert says about Rick Warren's giving.

Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy
Rick Warren is a pastor of the Saddleback megachurch in California and bestselling author. He says he “reverse tithes”—gives 90% of his income to his church.
I’m wondering how that works. Current charitable deductions are limited to 50% of AGI. Anything beyond that can be carried over to future years, but that wouldn’t help Warren if he gives 90% every year. If he actually donated 90% every year, he’d still pay tax on half of his income. If he earns $10 million and pays an average of 30% in tax, he’d have to pay 30% of $5 million, or $1.5 million in tax. Given that he only keeps $1 million, he’d come up $500,000 short every year. (It could be worse than that. The top individual income tax rate is 35% and he also has to pay California state income taxes, assuming his residence is near his church. And income-related phaseouts of itemized deductions and other provisions could further raise his effective tax rate.) Maybe he pays the shortfall out of his savings, although that seems unlikely. Maybe he includes the taxes he pays in the 90%, although in that case, he’s way overstating how much he’s giving to the church. It’s likely 75% of his income or less. Maybe he gives 90% of his after tax income. (Law professor Ellen Aprill pointed out to me that there is a lively debate about whether tithing refers to pre-tax or after-tax income. See, e.g., this theological discussion. My favorite bit of guidance on whether to tithe out of gross or net income is: "just decide if you want net blessings or gross blessings.")
Maybe Warren channels a portion of his book royalties directly to the church, although it’s not clear that this would be kosher. Ellen discussed the tax consequences of Obama’s doing this with his Nobel Prize on the taxprof blog. In Obama’s case, a special rule would allow redirecting Nobels and Pulitzers, but that wouldn't apply to book royalties.
Alternatively, Warren might have donated all or a share of his book copyrights to his church. First Lady Hillary Clinton donated her book royalties to charity, but Tax Notes pundit Lee Sheppard suggested she should have donated the copyright and claimed an up-front charitable deduction without ever taking the royalties as income. Law professor Calvin Johnson pointed out that she couldn’t claim a deduction because the copyright is not a capital asset. (The same rules apply to artists who donate artworks to museums. It’s the right answer from a tax perspective, but is extremely unpopular with wealthy artists and museums.)
Rev. Warren’s had trouble with the IRS in the past over his $80,000 a year parsonage allowance, which the IRS argued was excessive because it exceeded the fair market rental value of his home. Warren argued the allowance should be entirely tax-free on the grounds that it’s an important aid to struggling clergy. Although courts ultimately ruled in Warren’s favor, the Congress later changed the rule in line with the IRS’s interpretation.
Viewing seemingly mundane events through the prism of tax policy can make them endlessly fascinating.
Happy New Year!
Leonard E. Burman
Co-founder the Tax Policy Center.
Source:Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy
Perhaps this is why Warren says he refuses to take income from his church.
Jesus says to the rich to sell all that they have and give it to the poor, and come follow Him. Rick Warren does not openly share his actual networth or how much he spends each year with everyone. It is very foggy and vague. If he was truly up front with people, he would provide how much he is worth or how much he can spend in a year. Surely, Rick does not want to lose people going to his church, so of course he is going to say the things that he does. The real test of truth is if he has a tax person disclose his real generated income, savings, and property values, etc. (Networth). My guess, he is still rich and or a millionaire. Being rich is condemned in the New Covenant.
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,..."
(1 Timothy 6:9-12).<J0>
Here is your tax expert. "May,""Maybe,"'perhaps,""assuming,""seems unlikely.""likely,""I don't know,""my guess" etc

And you know this how? In the 90s I lived a few blocks from Saddleback [the name of a mountain near the church] and drove past it almost every day. I didn't join it because I'm not a fan of mega churches. I heard and asked a member if Rick could in fact remember the name of all of his church members. She said yes. Saddleback has Sheriff's deputies directing traffic every Sunday.

Google is just a search engine. You can get restaurants in your area with Google.

Moving on from talking to you because there was never a point you’ve ever agreed with anything I said (even on basic things).

Sparagmos · Feb 24, 2019

step_by_step said:
Again, show me the verse in the Bible where it says you cannot be a true follower of Christ if you're rich. Show the verse where it says we get to decide what someone's relationship with God is.

I didn’t say anything about any specific person not being a true follower of Christ, did I? Jesus is quite clear that His followers should help the poor, the stranger, the widow, the leper, etc. Someone who is hoarding (holding on to) their wealth rather than helping those less fortunate with it is not doing all they can. That person walks by homeless people on the street and doesn’t take care of them! If they did give to every suffering person they came across, they would not be a millionaire. Plus holding on to so much more money than one needs demonstrates a love of money, a sin. If that person employs people and doesn’t pay each of them a good wage that can support a family and provide full family healthcare, they should not be accumulating wealth until their employees have those basic needs.

I just read @Just Another User ‘s post above. Clearly early followers of Christ believed that Jesus wanted them to forego riches in order to care for the poor.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Toro said:
You hold conversations with the devil?

Ad hominems (invented out of thin air) does not help to prove your case here.

You said:
It's easy to stretch someone's words and intent isnt it? Clearly you are just looking for an arguement. Have a good day.

I was referring to the “we” as in reference to believers in general and I was not referring to you personally. I asked a question so as to show you the fallacy of your argument. If a Christian is sinning for being rich, then they are of the devil according to 1 John 3:8. For he that commits sin is of the devil.

Der Alte · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Google is just a search engine. You can get restaurants in your area with Google.
Moving on from talking to you because there was never a point you’ve ever agreed with anything I said (even on basic things).

I have used google to guide me to a restaurant. It is not my fault that you are proven wrong at almost every turn. When that happens one might consider changing their views/sources.

timothyu · Feb 24, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Mostly theirs, obviously - though it depends what teaching they've had;

Thus getting bogged down in an institution that goes far beyond a building.

timothyu · Feb 24, 2019

What happens to a 'millionaire's' Christian values when the easy come easy go attitude over their wealth disappears and becomes one of coveting> Are those two attitudes what can determine the Christianity of a wealthy person?

Tree of Life · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Actually, the context is being rich. They that be rich fall into temptations and pierce themselves through with many sorrows.

You're wrong. The context is not about being rich, but about desiring to be rich. It's not about having money, but loving money.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 - 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

If you go on reading in 1 Timothy 6 you'll notice that Paul has instruction for those who are rich. And it's not to sell all they have...

1 Timothy 6:17-19 - 17 As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. 18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

The rich should not trust in their riches but in God and they should be ready to share. Being rich in itself is not at all wrong.

I mean, I get it. You personally do not like the idea. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts.

The Old Covenant examples do not apply because we are no longer under the Old Covenant. Unless you are proposing we have to sacrifice animals or something.

Lol. I know you think that half the Bible doesn't apply to us. I believe that the OT does indeed apply to us and presents examples for us to imitate unless otherwise abrogated by the NT. This includes the OT teaching concerning wealth. Do you believe that the book of Proverbs also does not apply to us today?

Proverbs 10:22 - The blessing of the Lord makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it.

Proverbs 14:24 - The crown of the wise is their wealth, but the folly of fools brings folly.

Proverbs 22:4 - The reward for humility and fear of the Lord is riches and honor and life.

Proverbs 13:22 - A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, but the sinner’s wealth is laid up for the righteous.

Let me guess. These verses don't apply to Christians. OR these verses are talking only about "spiritual" wealth?

RaymondG · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am only offering the truth of what Jesus says. Jesus says do not put your treasure here upon this Earth, but put your treasure in Heaven. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Obviously if somebody has lots of money, they have lots of treasure here upon this Earth. Thus, their heart is here upon this Earth with their treasure.

You are offering your opinion and interpretation....which seems to be skewed to match what you already believe. And I find no fault in that. My words are not for you....but for the "reader," some of whom may have ears to hear it.

We are linking treasure to money and may be causing some, who would seek God...to start considering money, both their own and others, before coming to God....and after.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the holyghost.

It is unwise for others to begin, instead to contemplate money instead of keeping their eyes on the true goal.

What would one have to gain, from focusing others attention on mammon, the abundance of or lack of.......if it is said that we cannot buy our way in?

Jason0047 said:
1 Timothy 6 says this.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Beautiful scriptures indeed. "They that will be rich....." Please pay attention to these words. This applies those that seek to be rich.....and would apply to those that are poor...and in some cases those who want to be richer..... BUt this seems to only be talking about those that are poor....so let us leave the rich out of it...for now "Those that will be rich"

They that are in christ are already rich....and therefore need not desire to be....nor do they need to look at another and say that they are richer than I am....(unless, ofcourse, one believes that material riches are greater than spiritual riches).... For all that I have is already Thine..... therefore want for nothing.

The tendency to consider a neighbor's possessions, and judge....comes close to breaking a commandment, and should be avoided at all cost.

Jason0047 said:
It says the rich (i.e. millionaires) fall into temptation, and into many foolish hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction, and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil. This is talking about the rich. Those who are rich. Those who are rich... love money. If you have a large comic book collection, you love comic books. If you have Elvis Presley everywhere in your home, you love Elvis Presley. If have lots of money, you love money. Hence, you are rich.

Again it states "They that will be rich" not "the rich." And it is talking about those that are poor and wish to gain natural riches.

You say those who are rich love money......What about the child who is born to the rich man? Would you condemn him and place him under the category of those who love money just because he was born? There are a few who will know that the money in the bank and the contents of ones heart are totally unrelated.

What if one has a lot of bibles in the house? All different versions from all ages and materials....in showcases. Would this mean that they love God or the word of God? Seldom can things of the spirit directly translate to things of the flesh.....

Jason0047 said:
What is interesting is that in verse 11 it says to FLEE these things. It is saying to flee the pursuit in being rich or the love of money. We are to instead follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, etc.

I agree.....Those who are rich, do not pursue being rich. Children of God.......The earth is the Lord's and the fullness therefore.....the world and they that dwell there in. Everything the Father has is yours already. So please....Flee the pursuit of being something that you already are.

Dismiss all notions that anyone else has more than you have of anything. Greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world. You are the lender and not the borrower....the head and not the tail..... If you will only give up the idea that you are poor and others are richer in any way.

Jason0047 said:
Jesus says it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Why do you think the rich young ruler went away sad?

He said it for those that would hear it. These are very important sayings.. Read further down the chapter.....The disciples felt that, because the rich could not make it, NO ONE COULD. Therefore, the riches, that rich man possessed was viewed as something that should be able to get one into heaven faster, or straightway.....So if this was not the case for the rich.....then the poor HAD NO CHANCE.

And the Savior agreed......For man, it is impossible.....but with God..........

For those that would see....who can take their eyes off the riches of the world for a second......consider something more that this rich man could have possessed that would be harder to give up than money....something that we all possess no matter your income.....and we all most give away if we would enter in......

Jason0047 said:
If it was possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven being rich, then Jesus would have said for him that there was a way for him to keep his wealth to some degree and still follow Him.

He did give a way...."With God, all things are possible...... " If you are trying to convey that there is something that is impossible for God......than this would be my first instance of this.....I will have to check it out and get back to you......If I find that there are things impossible to God....I will come back and reply that, you could be right.....and that it would be wise to consider situations in which and amounts of money with which it will be impossible for God to save you.

Blade · Feb 24, 2019

This is.. what some post.. is not of GOD. Then people look at NET WORTH as if that's ALL they had in hand living with spending. 8 pages here and I am going to say.. I don't think ONE person knows how ANY of these people really live. Never spent days weeks with them.

You best get over this..GOD is going to BLESS who HE wants. You don't like it? So what. If they USED people to get that money.. what you or I personally feel .. so what? Hello they are NOT our kids.. they will NEVER EVER answer to us. Nor will we stand before GOD and TATTLE on them.. God wont listen. They are HIS Kids. They answer to Him.

its not about THEM..its about how YOU Live.. what YOU did in this life. Focus work out your OWN salvation. Keep your eyes on HIM..mind soul body. And then HE will bless you. Be faithful in little things He will give you more.

Tree of Life · Feb 24, 2019

@Jason0047 How much are Christians allowed to make annually before they're in sin?

Jadis40 · Feb 24, 2019

Tree of Life said:
@Jason0047 How much are Christians allowed to make annually before they're in sin?

The question is, will he include wildly variant costs of living? I know it takes a lot more to live in California and Washington,D.C. than some place like rural Ohio.

timothyu · Feb 24, 2019

Tree of Life said:
How much are Christians allowed to make annually before they're in sin?

The secular business world would put it at minimum wage. Not sure about the church.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Tree of Life said:
@Jason0047 How much are Christians allowed to make annually before they're in sin?

I am only offering you the truth. Jesus condemned being rich in the New Covenant and so did Paul. They taught minimal living and equality and in some cases forsaking almost all material possessions.

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am only offering you the truth. Jesus condemned being rich in the New Covenant and so did Paul.

No they didn't.

Jesus was supported financially by a group of women, one of whom was the wife of the manager of King Herod's household. I don't know how much he earned, but his wife, and many other women, supported Jesus, Luke 8:3. We don't know how much money Jesus and his disciples had, but they had some, because Judas was in charge of the purse, John 13:29. Elsewhere it says that Judas was a thief and used to help himself to their money.
They may not have been millionaires, but they weren't living in poverty either.

Jesus did not condemn people for being rich - he just warned against making money a master, trying to serve it and said it was hard for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

timothyu said:
Thus getting bogged down in an institution that goes far beyond a building.

Yes, but that's not the point or subject of discussion.
While local congregations have church buildings, they need maintaining. If that is important to people, they should be the ones to contribute and pay for it.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Strong in Him said:
No they didn't.

Jesus was supported financially by a group of women, one of whom was the wife of the manager of King Herod's household. I don't know how much he earned, but his wife, and many other women, supported Jesus, Luke 8:3. We don't know how much money Jesus and his disciples had, but they had some, because Judas was in charge of the purse, John 13:29. Elsewhere it says that Judas was a thief and used to help himself to their money.
They may not have been millionaires, but they weren't living in poverty either.

Jesus did not condemn people for being rich - he just warned against making money a master, trying to serve it and said it was hard for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The purse holder does not own the money. They helped others with that money and did not hoard it so as to buy a mansion or other treasures.

timothyu · Feb 24, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Yes, but that's not the point or subject of discussion.

It is if you realize it is the thinking that makes people millionaires is the same thinking that locks people into the owning and upkeep game. Mammon become the god of all of them, some to worship, some to be slaves to.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Blade said:
This is.. what some post.. is not of GOD. Then people look at NET WORTH as if that's ALL they had in hand living with spending. 8 pages here and I am going to say.. I don't think ONE person knows how ANY of these people really live. Never spent days weeks with them.

You best get over this..GOD is going to BLESS who HE wants. You don't like it? So what. If they USED people to get that money.. what you or I personally feel .. so what? Hello they are NOT our kids.. they will NEVER EVER answer to us. Nor will we stand before GOD and TATTLE on them.. God wont listen. They are HIS Kids. They answer to Him.

its not about THEM..its about how YOU Live.. what YOU did in this life. Focus work out your OWN salvation. Keep your eyes on HIM..mind soul body. And then HE will bless you. Be faithful in little things He will give you more.

It is a problem in the New Testament to be rich. So a person has to get over this fact and accept the truth of it.

A person’s net worth that is in the millions is not a description of believers that we see in the Early Church.

Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?

Yes.

No.

Maybe, it depends.

Other - Please explain.

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