Bible discussion gone wrong

VinceField · Feb 24, 2019

brinny said:
@VinceField, how is your uncle?

I'm not sure, he seems to be ignoring me. It's been over a week since this went down and I've messaged him several times since then. I know he's receiving the messages. Today I wrote to him and said sorry that he was hurt by our discussion and I love him. I've already explained that it wasn't personal, strictly scriptural, but I don't know if he has gotten past his initial reaction. I'll keep you posted, thanks.

VinceField · Feb 24, 2019

Andrew77 said:
Hmmmm.....

That's a hard one.... lol

I am not really sure what I would do. I does not seem as though you did anything particularly noteworthy, which means that if this really harmed him, then it means something is wrong on his end, and you perhaps inadvertently pointed it out.

I don't know what I would do. I think I would wait on this, and pray that G-d provides the time and place, and words to say, to fix this. I don't think I would push it, because without knowing what you can say, pushing it could just make matters worse.

It's like a strategy game, where you don't just charge the front line without a plan. Well you don't even really know what the issue is, and so you are more likely to stumble on a land mine, than heal a wound.

The thing that is confusing me, is that you said clearly that you were never once implying something against his character.... so... what exactly does he want? Does he even know what he wants? I'm not sure.

I think I'd back off, and just keep this in your daily prayer.

Yea I'm confused as well. Thanks for the advice bro.

brinny · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I'm not sure, he seems to be ignoring me. It's been over a week since this went down and I've messaged him several times since then. I know he's receiving the messages. Today I wrote to him and said sorry that he was hurt by our discussion and I love him. I've already explained that it wasn't personal, strictly scriptural, but I don't know if he has gotten past his initial reaction. I'll keep you posted, thanks.

Awwww, keep praying for him. He sounds wounded. Ask God to intervene as only He can, and to commence healing where necessary. It's precious that you told him that you love him. May God's inexplicable grace supersede all things, in this very painful situation. (((hug)))

Praying.

Pavel Mosko · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
What would you do or say in this situation?

I spent some years in that movement, and there is a lot to legitimately criticize. But I think if you want to do these conversations you might want to alter your approach. It's easy to do be too heavy handed, and doing so in the long run will work against you. For instance you uncle offered up some testimonies about tithing and so on. I would not discount those things. I have seen some positive things come from that movement, and the many ways that it is applied (some of them are not that objectionable).

If I was in your shoes I would focus on a few basic areas, like how Word of Faith people cherry pick the Bible and only paying attention to verses that help their theology and stuff like that. I would show how they have a lop sided view of Christianity. I would however not make it out to be one of the greatest heresies of the modern age, even though for some people I think it is. I've seen a certain amount of variability in folks in the movement where some can be reasonably orthodox while others pretty much are wolves in sheep's clothing chasing after filthy lucre.

Anyway personally I would apologize to your uncle and would use that opportunity to more clearly explain my position of why i think that movement has problems.

PS - Personally if I was talking to your uncle I would mention how some areas of that movement like "Positive Confession" nearly gave me a nervous break down almost 3 decades ago. Those people are very superstitious on some things and in a way that does not fit the Bible.

Pavel Mosko · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I'm not sure, he seems to be ignoring me. It's been over a week since this went down and I've messaged him several times since then. I know he's receiving the messages. Today I wrote to him and said sorry that he was hurt by our discussion and I love him. I've already explained that it wasn't personal, strictly scriptural, but I don't know if he has gotten past his initial reaction. I'll keep you posted, thanks.

The problem is for many people that kind of teaching is one of the first times they get really excited about reading the Bible and applying it. They try some of the Word of Faith experiments and they seem to work and they get more excited. Now usually I think, God lets this thing wear off and people are forced to have to get deeper into Christianity and learn that not everything is a gung ho message. But other people can stay in that place for years and decades, I'm not really sure if it's a good thing to take that away from them in the sense of the Hippocratic oath, of "Do No Harm". Lots of people who are adults can have a child like faith and well they do well enough with it. If God wants to move them on then he can nudge them along.

Where I get mad at Prosperity folks is when they try to apply their One Size Fits All theology to the rest of the World and try to pigeon hole and guilt trip them that their problems are simply due to a lack of faith etc. because there can be many legitimate reasons why problems and difficulties exist in life.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.

I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.

It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.

He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.

What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

This could turn into a rabbit hole as the PG is very popular and promoted in basically many mega churches ,radio and TV programs. So if I were you I would probably apologize since "things" of this sort should not divide the Body of Christ. I know it is extremely disturbing to those of us who do not follow this form of "sowing" for more however, LOVE does cure all. Just tell him you wish to no longer divide on things that do not promote The Kingdom of God and remind him that things of this world are short lived and meaningless.
Blessings

PaulCyp1 · Feb 24, 2019

How sad. Christian against Christian. Protestant against Protestant. No wonder Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven" and "He who hears you hears me". Such silly debates don't occur in His Church because all its members receive the fullness of truth from the one source Jesus provided, and do not attempt to interpret the Bible on their own.

~Zao~ · Feb 24, 2019

Imo God does use prosperity for some folks who need to see God’s provision in their lives, others with stronger faith don’t need material evidence. But in all things it’s a personal relationship that matters first and that we should seek. Everything else will be added. Not always in the way we expect it tho.

Blade · Feb 24, 2019

This ""prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia)". So why make fun of them? Well saying "Prosperity gospel" is not being said because you are uplifting them helping encouraging them or the like. Do THEY call it "prosperity gospel"?

Then you ask here and you WILL get YES NO MAYBE.. more confusion. We let NO NONE "unwholesome,foul or abusive language,corrupting,dirty,harmful , filthy,hateful,anything that would hurt,no evil speech" <------these are the words the word of God uses...

The other 1/2 everything you say "but only what is helpful for building,be good and helpful,but only good, for edification,but only such a word as is good for edification,use of edifying,Say the right thing at the right time,he kind that build up and provide what is needed, but only what is beneficial,but whatever is good.

And then "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things"

And 1st Cor 13.. .HAVE this mind set when you talk about OTHERS! Prosperity..is of God. Is in the word. Its covered MANY times in over 7 thousand promises of God. Just because you say "what that verse really means, what God was really saying, that's not for us" etc.

So.. was this about YOU how YOU really felt? That YOU just HAD to tell him the TRUTH?

If I offended forgive me. NOT saying your right.. but some people..hmm.. are not that OLD in the faith. They might be saved 30 years.. studied 20year.. yet can STILL be a baby in Christ.. weak in the faith.. so you need to PRAY for you talk. ALWAYS.. Always have HIS leading.. not our own..

Pethesedzao · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.

I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.

It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.

He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.

What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

Pethesedzao · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.

I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.

It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.

He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.

What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

Pethesedzao · Feb 24, 2019

First of all, there is no such thing as the 'prosperity gospel' cos the gospel is prosperity, spirit soul and body. (more Epignosis to come)

salt-n-light · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I need advise brothers. I had a debate about the prosperity gospel with my uncle who is born again and it led to some turmoil. I was convicted to address this with him because he essentially told me the prosperity gospel, saying that God gives to us many fold when we are generous to others, referring to material gifts (food, clothes, electronics, money, etc). He was making the case for tithing and said that after he started tithing, people began bringing his family bags of food and other things and eventually he had so much stuff he had no more room for it all and had to give some away.

I defined what "prosperity gospel" is (from Wikipedia) so we were on the same page and then he gave verses in support for it. I then demonstrated that these in fact did not support material prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. I also provided verses which directly oppose the prosperity gospel.

It turns out he got very offended because he believed I was attacking him personally, although all of my arguments dealt entirely in scripture and no personal remarks were made. He felt I was doubting his motivations and thought I had the impression that he was practicing the prosperity gospel in the sense that his intentions in being generous were greedy or for material gain. The thing is that I said nothing to indicate this nor do I believe it is true. I know he is truly generous because he is in Christ and I told him this in trying to clear the confusion.

He told me he was up all night sick because of our conversation, that I robbed him of his peace and joy and that I was not coming from a place of love. I explained to him that we were simply discussing the truth of scripture, it had nothing to do with his character, but I felt it was beneficial to discuss it for the sake of correctly understanding he word of God. He has stopped talking to me and I'm not sure if he still feels I wronged him or how he has recovered from his traumatic overreaction.

What would you do or say in this situation? I don't feel apologizing is appropriate because I don't believe I did wrong. Should I apologize for his misunderstanding/misinterpretation? Was I wrong in some way and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks for listening. God bless.

Let him reason with it, he’ll come back.

mkgal1 · Feb 24, 2019

mmsyther said:
most posters seem oblivious to the dangers of the prosperity Gospel

I wanted to add to this (in agreement). It is definitely a dangerous belief system. I'll share a story as to why I believe that.

We had an acquaintance that grew up in a Methodist church - but then got a job at a non-denominational Christian school. That church that governed the school taught something along the lines of what your uncle is believing (and used all sorts of stories of people that gave up a lot in order to contribute to "building God's kingdom" - meaning the church building and the school). People in that church were taking out second mortgages in order to give the money to the church - they took on second jobs in order to donate all that money to the church - they canceled their vacations and gave that money to the church (it almost became competitive in a way - because these stories were being shared at services as testimonies).

This guy that we knew changed his will and made the church the beneficiary of all his property and assets (which caused division in his family). He believed this made him "safe" from financial harm. It wasn't long that the same church/school that employed him - let him go...laid him off.....as they needed room in their budget. He had no savings, because he "gave all he could". He struggled with faith for a long time. He felt lied to and betrayed. Their formula didn't "work".

seeking.IAM · Feb 24, 2019

So what is the harm in your Uncle's belief that it becomes your place to correct him? You said he is born again. Is that not enough for you? If he is too generous with the poor or to his church, is that a bad thing? Is his belief that God rewards cheerful givers going to keep him from salvation? Will not time and reality answer the question for him about the material gains coming back to him from his generosity? Having a religious discussion over different opinions with a willing participant is one thing, but I think your conviction to correct him takes this conversation to a whole different place.I'm not an adherent to the prosperity gospel either, but I think you should humble yourself and ask for his forgiveness.

Kenny'sID · Feb 24, 2019

What I'm getting here is you understand he personally is a good man, and as Brinny mentioned he is, and he is offened becaue he thinks that you think oterwise of him.

It also appears you understand he is good as well, and it is his good living and generosity that is making karma smile on him, and not the Prosperity gospel.

Evidently either he just copped an attitude and refuses to understand, or you were not successful putting that point across, or a bit of both. I mean the point he himself is doing just fine, but you feel that is not attributed to mainstream prosperity gospel, but simply biblical truths. And yes those biblical truths could be a form of prosperity gospel but it is far from this junk we see on TV, taking money from anyone they possibly can wile the takers are the only ones unfairly "prospering".

Kenny'sID · Feb 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I wanted to add to this (in agreement). It is definitely a dangerous belief system. I'll share a story as to why I believe that.

We had an acquaintance that grew up in a Methodist church - but then got a job at a non-denominational Christian school. That church that governed the school taught something along the lines of what your uncle is believing (and used all sorts of stories of people that gave up a lot in order to contribute to "building God's kingdom" - meaning the church building and the school). People in that church were taking out second mortgages in order to give the money to the church - they took on second jobs in order to donate all that money to the church - they canceled their vacations and gave that money to the church (it almost became competitive in a way - because these stories were being shared at services as testimonies).

This guy that we knew changed his will and made the church the beneficiary of all his property and assets (which caused division in his family). He believed this made him "safe" from financial harm. It wasn't long that the same church/school that employed him - let him go...laid him off.....as they needed room in their budget. He had no savings, because he "gave all he could". He struggled with faith for a long time. He felt lied to and betrayed. Their formula didn't "work".

Did they ever build the church/school?

Either way, even if the Church leaders actually believed what they were telling their congregation, they needed to prove that out with their own money, not that of others....extremely reckless for them to say that money will magically come back to others.

Problem is, if those church leaders were confronted with what they did, they would likely reply, "Well, they must have given in the wrong Spirit, or not had enough faith."

Wonder how the leaders would have responded if the man you mention asked them to take up a collection in order to get him out of the debt his trust in them and their understanding of the bible has caused? Surely they are willing to do the same as they asked of him, and depend on God to replace the money they give to the man, if they should have financial trouble because of it.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Things are getting worse in these last days. Attack the over accumulation of wealth or the pleasures of this life as a believer and it will place you under fire. Picking up your cross and denying yourself for Jesus is pretty much a foreign concept these days.

My encouragement: Do not compromise the truth of God’s Word and love and pray for those who are still a part of the world and it’s ways.

Ing Bee · Feb 24, 2019

VinceField said:
I'm not sure, he seems to be ignoring me. It's been over a week since this went down and I've messaged him several times since then. I know he's receiving the messages. Today I wrote to him and said sorry that he was hurt by our discussion and I love him. I've already explained that it wasn't personal, strictly scriptural, but I don't know if he has gotten past his initial reaction. I'll keep you posted, thanks.

Sounds like you've done all that you can do. You've assured him of your love for him so let the Holy Spirit guide him. Relationship can't be forced. If you stand by what you shared regarding prosperity theology, and if you believe you've done all that you can to be clear about your personal love for him, that's all YOU can do.

gideon123 · Feb 24, 2019

I am opposed to the Prosperity Gospel, if people mean that we will get rich or gain money. That is a false teaching, and a great insult to the poor people of the world.

I do believe that tithing is a very valuable activity. I would go so far as to say that it is essential, but never because we can make a profit from it. Tithing teaches us to be generous and compassionate. God never tied tithing to any gain in your bank account. The Lord said that you would be blessed by it. And you will be, if you open your heart to the Lord. God's blessings come in many forms, and you cannot put a dollar value on them.

Please do not confuse Tithing and the Prosperity Gospel. They are not the same thing at all.

Blessings!

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