Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?


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The love of money is certainly a negative thing and we should flee from a love of money. But it's possible to be wealthy and not love money. There are examples of very faithful men and women in Scripture who had significant means. Many of these figures are in the OT like Abraham and King David. But there are also NT examples like Lydia.



Hoisted by your own petard.

Also, see post #118.
 
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Jadis40

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The love of money is certainly a negative thing and we should flee from a love of money. But it's possible to be wealthy and not love money. There are examples of very faithful men and women in Scripture who had significant means. Many of these figures are in the OT like Abraham and King David. But there are also NT examples like Lydia.

Hoisted by your own petard.

Lydia is a fascinating character. She was a businesswoman, and an entrepreneur. What she was doing at the time was highly unusual for that era. Her household is mentioned, but it's not clear if she was a widow, or if she had servants.

By the standards of the time, she was rich, yet generous towards Paul while he was in Thyatira.

One thing Paul *never* did was condemn her for her wealth.
 
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timothyu

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Possibly by using the gifts that God gave him to earn a living and bless others?

Then he should as an agent only have gotten a small commission, the majority property rights belonging to God
 
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Lydia is a fascinating character. She was a businesswoman, and an entrepreneur. What she was doing at the time was highly unusual for that era. Her household is mentioned, but it's not clear if she was a widow, or if she had servants.

By the standards of the time, she was rich, yet generous towards Paul while he was in Thyatira.

One thing Paul *never* did was condemn her for her wealth.

Does it say she was rich? I don't see that in the Scriptures.
 
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Maybe.
He's written some brilliant, challenging, helpful and thought provoking books though.



Possibly by using the gifts that God gave him to earn a living and bless others?



Compared with some third world countries, even someone who is unemployed and disabled (as I am) is rich.
I don't believe money should be a Christian's focus or driving force - we are told not to serve it, and to have no other God except the Lord. But if someone is using their God given gifts to make money, there's nothing at all wrong with that. What they do with it may be open to question, but not their right to earn it.

Most churches own their own buildings. These need maintaining/decorating/expanding, and equipment and resources such as Bibles, hymn/prayer books, microphones, chairs, organs/pianos etc etc are needed - as well as the salaries of clergy, youth workers, evangelists etc.
Who do you think pays for all these things?

There is nothing in the Bible about how we are to have a big church building.
Also, Jesus and Paul both condemned the idea that we can be rich in this life.
 
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Jadis40

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Does it say she was rich? I don't see that in the Scriptures.

I'd say she was. Not explicitly stated though. She was a seller of purple, meaning she was of the merchant class and a businesswoman. (Probably sold purple clothing.)

Household could mean servants. Could mean children. Nothing at all mentioned if her husband died and she was a widow.

Doesn't change the fact that it's not recorded that Paul condemned her for having wealth. Paul never told her she had to give up her business.
 
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I'd say she was. Not explicitly stated though. She was a seller of purple, meaning she was of the merchant class and a businesswoman. (Probably sold purple clothing.)

Household could mean servants. Could mean children. Nothing at all mentioned if her husband died and she was a widow.

Doesn't change the fact that it's not recorded that Paul condemned her for having wealth. Paul never told her she had to give up her business.

Show me in the Bible where it says she was rich.
Show me in the Bible where it says she held on to her riches and they spoke of her as a faithful servant.
 
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Jadis40

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Show me in the Bible where it says she was rich.
Show me in the Bible where it says she held on to her riches and they spoke of her as a faithful servant.

Show me where Paul in the Bible said she wasn't rich.
Show me where she gave up her riches.
 
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Show me where Paul in the Bible said she wasn't rich.

You cannot make assumptions based off of something that is not there.
I can say, "Show me where Peter did not travel into space."
The assumption is silly because there is no clear mention of Peter going to space.
She could have been a seller of purple and not be rich.
People are merely assuming that she was because she was a seller of purple clothing. Even if she was rich, we cannot assume she held on to her wealth with that being okay with God. For there are many verses in the NT that condemn one in being rich.
 
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There is nothing in the Bible about how we are to have a big church building.

I know; I agree.
But when we meet together with other Christians to worship and have fellowship, it's usually in a building that is owned by the particular denomination. In some cases it might have to be - since certain places are licensed for weddings, and so on, and I don't doubt that buildings can be used for mission in a variety of ways.
But they all require maintenance - and for some, the building has become far more important that what goes on in it.

Also, Jesus and Paul both condemned the idea that we can be rich in this life.

No they didn't.
Jesus said that it's hard for the rich to enter the Kingdom of heaven, but not impossible.
And Paul actually said that Christ became poor so that we could be rich - I know he wasn't talking about money there; but being rich is about more than wealth.
 
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timothyu

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I agree. Rich in righteousness and not mammon.
Although mammon would go a long way in loving neighbour as self if used properly. Take the money for a wall. Is it God's way to have capitalists profit from it or would it serve Him if the money was used to improve conditions and oppression for others. Would they then need to leave home? I'm not talking feed them but remove the oppression that prevents them from living their own lives.
 
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timothyu

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Jesus said that it's hard for the rich to enter the Kingdom of heaven, but not impossible.
And Paul actually said that Christ became poor so that we could be rich - I know he wasn't talking about money there; but being rich is about more than wealth.
In the way the young man was troubled at giving up his wealth, would the US as an example be willing to give up it's power and position to become a nation that loved all others as self?
 
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Jadis40

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You cannot make assumptions based off of something that is not there.
I can say, "Show me where Peter did not travel into space."
The assumption is silly because there is no clear mention of Peter going to space.
She could have been a seller of purple and not be rich.
People are merely assuming that she was because she was a seller of purple clothing. Even if she was rich, we cannot assume she held on to her wealth with that being okay with God. For there are many verses in the NT that condemn one in being rich.

Exactly, but in a way, you're making assumptions too.
What we know from scripture is:
1. She had her own household. (Previously widowed or single isn't stated.)
2. She was a seller of purple cloth. Do you know who wore purple? Kings. Emperors. High ranking officials. Certainly not the common people of the day. It can be inferred from that that she was a woman who was far from being dirt poor.
3. We know that Lydia was a believer in God, before Paul met with the women by the river. Acts 16:13-14
4. We know that Paul and Silas went to her house after their release from prison. Acts 16:40
 
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And in your third line you think it is foolish to throw out advice because I do not like the source. So does that mean we can take advice from the devil?
You hold conversations with the devil?

It's easy to stretch someone's words and intent isnt it? Clearly you are just looking for an arguement. Have a good day.
 
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Der Alte

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I am only reporting what Google says about them. But even if it is not an exact number, I am sure they are all still millionaires.
And you have determined that google is a credible source, how?
J0 said:
<J0>Rick Warren, may give away all his money to the poor. I don't know. There is no official tax document saying what he does. It says he lives off 10% of his income. Even 10% of 25 million networth is 2 million and a half. That is still pretty luxurious.
Here is what a tax expert says about Rick Warren's giving.

Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy
Rick Warren is a pastor of the Saddleback megachurch in California and bestselling author. He says he “reverse tithes”—gives 90% of his income to his church.
I’m wondering how that works. Current charitable deductions are limited to 50% of AGI. Anything beyond that can be carried over to future years, but that wouldn’t help Warren if he gives 90% every year. If he actually donated 90% every year, he’d still pay tax on half of his income. If he earns $10 million and pays an average of 30% in tax, he’d have to pay 30% of $5 million, or $1.5 million in tax. Given that he only keeps $1 million, he’d come up $500,000 short every year. (It could be worse than that. The top individual income tax rate is 35% and he also has to pay California state income taxes, assuming his residence is near his church. And income-related phaseouts of itemized deductions and other provisions could further raise his effective tax rate.) Maybe he pays the shortfall out of his savings, although that seems unlikely. Maybe he includes the taxes he pays in the 90%, although in that case, he’s way overstating how much he’s giving to the church. It’s likely 75% of his income or less. Maybe he gives 90% of his after tax income. (Law professor Ellen Aprill pointed out to me that there is a lively debate about whether tithing refers to pre-tax or after-tax income. See, e.g., this theological discussion. My favorite bit of guidance on whether to tithe out of gross or net income is: "just decide if you want net blessings or gross blessings.")
Maybe Warren channels a portion of his book royalties directly to the church, although it’s not clear that this would be kosher. Ellen discussed the tax consequences of Obama’s doing this with his Nobel Prize on the taxprof blog. In Obama’s case, a special rule would allow redirecting Nobels and Pulitzers, but that wouldn't apply to book royalties.
Alternatively, Warren might have donated all or a share of his book copyrights to his church. First Lady Hillary Clinton donated her book royalties to charity, but Tax Notes pundit Lee Sheppard suggested she should have donated the copyright and claimed an up-front charitable deduction without ever taking the royalties as income. Law professor Calvin Johnson pointed out that she couldn’t claim a deduction because the copyright is not a capital asset. (The same rules apply to artists who donate artworks to museums. It’s the right answer from a tax perspective, but is extremely unpopular with wealthy artists and museums.)
Rev. Warren’s had trouble with the IRS in the past over his $80,000 a year parsonage allowance, which the IRS argued was excessive because it exceeded the fair market rental value of his home. Warren argued the allowance should be entirely tax-free on the grounds that it’s an important aid to struggling clergy. Although courts ultimately ruled in Warren’s favor, the Congress later changed the rule in line with the IRS’s interpretation.
Viewing seemingly mundane events through the prism of tax policy can make them endlessly fascinating.
Happy New Year!
Leonard E. Burman
Co-founder the Tax Policy Center.
Source:Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy
Perhaps this is why Warren says he refuses to take income from his church.
Jesus says to the rich to sell all that they have and give it to the poor, and come follow Him. Rick Warren does not openly share his actual networth or how much he spends each year with everyone. It is very foggy and vague. If he was truly up front with people, he would provide how much he is worth or how much he can spend in a year. Surely, Rick does not want to lose people going to his church, so of course he is going to say the things that he does. The real test of truth is if he has a tax person disclose his real generated income, savings, and property values, etc. (Networth). My guess, he is still rich and or a millionaire. Being rich is condemned in the New Covenant.
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,..."
(1 Timothy 6:9-12).<J0>
Here is your tax expert. "May,""Maybe,"'perhaps,""assuming,""seems unlikely.""likely,""I don't know,""my guess" etc

J0 said:
Rick also does not always clearly preach the gospel in the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and He was risen for our salvation.
And you know this how? In the 90s I lived a few blocks from Saddleback [the name of a mountain near the church] and drove past it almost every day. I didn't join it because I'm not a fan of mega churches. I heard and asked a member if Rick could in fact remember the name of all of his church members. She said yes. Saddleback has Sheriff's deputies directing traffic every Sunday.
 
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