Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

S.O.J.I.A. · Feb 23, 2019

Jn 11:35:

"Jesus facepalmed"

Sparagmos · Feb 23, 2019

RDKirk said:
Depends on how we define "millionaires." Someone here put out a list of preachers each with a net worth in the millions.

Have to be careful about "net worth." I knew some family farmers in Illionois with net worths in the millions, and they barely paid their bills and taxes. Their net worth was in their farmland and equipment.

I worked with a guy in DC who was a "net worth" millionaire because he still lived in the house in Old Town Alexandria that his family had owned for 150 years. But he was worried about losing the house because the taxes on it were too much for a mid-level Civil Service employee.

So "net worth" doesn't really tell you whether they've simply "built bigger barns." We need to see what they're actually passing down the chain.

I Agree.

Carl Emerson · Feb 23, 2019

Ys

Sparagmos said:
But shouldn’t Christians be using extra income to help those in need? It’s not earning the money that is a problem, it is holding on to a lot of wealth that could be feeding or clothing someone in need.

Yes, for sure what ever resources we have should be invested in His purpose.

The net worth spoken of could include investments targeted at critical Christain ministries, or maybe not... I dont think this claim of 'net worth' gives us enough information to be sure.

I for one am planning to invest to support my future Christian service and support various worthy Christian causes.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Feb 23, 2019

Just Another User said:
I don't think you know what forsaking means. If a brother needs to use my computer or phone or even my clothes than he can gladly have them. It's God property not mine. I'm still wondering what happened to some of my clothes and some blankets! It doesn't mean I'm naked in the woods

That's good to hear. The thought of you running around naked while asking strangers to borrow their cell phone to post on CF seemed awkward.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
According to Google:

1. Pat Robertson, Networth: 100 Million.
2. Billy Graham, Networth when he died: 25 Million.
3. T.D. Jakes, Networth: 147 Million.
4. Kenneth Copeland, Networth: Although Celebrity Net Worth reported his worth at $300 million, other reports say Copeland could be worth $750 million or more.
5. Joel Olsteen, Networth: 55 Million.
6. Benny Hinn, Networth: 42 Million.
7. Joyce Meyer, Networth: 8 Million.
8. Joseph Prince, Networth: 5 Million.
9. Rick Warren, Networth: 25 Million.
10. Lee Strobel, Networth: 8 Million.

I voted yes only because Lee made your list. Proves only a remnant is righteous.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
According to Google: Max Lucado's networth is 10 million. How do you think he became a millionaire? Does the Bible want us to be rich? I don't believe so. Please read 1 Timothy 6 several times in prayer if you are in doubt about that.

Best re-read vs 17-19 a few more times and slowly. The rich are among the saved too if they conduct themselves according to the Gospel. Not everyone who is rich has sought to become rich. And those that are rich are specifically addressed both in these passages you cite as well as elsewhere in the Scriptures. See James 1:10-11...here we see that the rich fade from their worldly glory.
You sound envious and spiteful and judgemental rather than full of mercy and pity for those among the rich who are not yet in line with the Scripture.
James says Have mercy for mercy triumphs over judgement...and...judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. (James 2:13 paraphrase)

timothyu · Feb 23, 2019

Jadis40 said:
And if someone who is a millionaire can offer sound financial advice, then sure, I'm willing to listen to them.

2008 advice would be get the taxpayers to keep them rich by bailing them out as the lessers lose it all. Look after #1.

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?

It depends on what sort of advice you want, whether they are qualified to give it and whether they are Christians and know what God's will is.

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
According to Google: Max Lucado's networth is 10 million.

Maybe.
He's written some brilliant, challenging, helpful and thought provoking books though.

Jason0047 said:
How do you think he became a millionaire?

Possibly by using the gifts that God gave him to earn a living and bless others?

Jason0047 said:
Does the Bible want us to be rich? I don't believe so.

Compared with some third world countries, even someone who is unemployed and disabled (as I am) is rich.
I don't believe money should be a Christian's focus or driving force - we are told not to serve it, and to have no other God except the Lord. But if someone is using their God given gifts to make money, there's nothing at all wrong with that. What they do with it may be open to question, but not their right to earn it.

Most churches own their own buildings. These need maintaining/decorating/expanding, and equipment and resources such as Bibles, hymn/prayer books, microphones, chairs, organs/pianos etc etc are needed - as well as the salaries of clergy, youth workers, evangelists etc.
Who do you think pays for all these things?

Strong in Him · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
My guess is that he did not hoard that wealth and he helped others with what he had. But again, Abraham is not a part of the New Covenant.

No, but he is an example of someone who was Godly, followed God and was blessed by God.
We don't ignore all OT characters and fail to learn from them/benefit from their wisdom because they were not part of the New Covenant. They only had ONE covenant.

Just Another User · Feb 24, 2019

jason_delisle said:
That's good to hear. The thought of you running around naked while asking strangers to borrow their cell phone to post on CF seemed awkward.

How did you kno... oh that's good, we're on the same page.

Just Another User · Feb 24, 2019

I don't think I've added enough caveats to my position.

Anything besides spiritual advice I think we can all agree is completely fine. I don't know any millionaires and I doubt we'd have any common interests but if I were to ask for some help, I don't think it's morally wrong to see if they can help me.

Spiritually however, I'd be uncomfortable asking for a rich person for advice. If you're earning 100s of thousands or even millions a year, I would seriously doubt you're putting God and your church family first. Obviously there's exceptions but generally I just can't see how your putting God's Kingdom before your own. Personally in the part where I live in my country I can't see why I'd ever need to earn more than £25,000 and even that is billionaire equivalent in some parts of the world so I should try to cut back whenever I can.

Caveat: Someone could be earning £100,000s could still serving God by giving most of it away, that's commendable. Rich people (in relevance to income not possessions) can be God's tools and have been used by him for a long time. When it comes to income, is about the time you spend a day getting it rather than what you get back. If God isn't your primary concern everyday you could be a billionaire and giving millions and millions away and you're still morally wrong. This is why having a large income can be curse. You can be forced to having to work and care more about money and less about God. Remember that it's easier for a rich man to get to heaven that it is for a Camel to go through an eye of a needle.

If you also have a massive amount of material wealth, but you're not using said property to help and give to others I find that dangerous too. If you know brothers and sisters are in need but you don't help them with your wealth I wouldn't want advice from you either. How can you forsake your possessions if you aren't willing to share? When someone has so much wealth they can be entangled in it which is why it's incredibly dangerous to have such an amount. We aren't supposed to tithe we're supposed to do so much more. For Jesus and for the earliest Christians caring and supporting the poor was equal to evangelising.

Caveat: Someone could have inherited the wealth or got it through another means and it would be unfair to criticise them for it. We will also have a lot of property and money when we were not disciples of the Lord so it can be expected if some of us have lots of material wealth to begin. It also may be hard to start giving away to begin with. I won't attack someone for this because that would be unloving. Nevertheless we need to live like the church in Acts 4:32-25 and the churches in the first three-hundred years of the faith. Remember that tithing 10% was eclipsed by the early Christians always sharing and giving away their possessions so it became the local churches rather than just one mans.

Dave L · Feb 24, 2019

If we love others as we do our own selves, we won't be rich.

Der Alte · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
begin

<J0>According to Google:
1. Pat Robertson, Networth: 100 Million.
2. Billy Graham, Networth when he died: 25 Million.
3. T.D. Jakes, Networth: 147 Million.
4. Kenneth Copeland, Networth: Although Celebrity Net Worth reported his worth at $300 million, other reports say Copeland could be worth $750 million or more.
5. Joel Olsteen, Networth: 55 Million.
6. Benny Hinn, Networth: 42 Million.
7. Joyce Meyer, Networth: 8 Million.
8. Joseph Prince, Networth: 5 Million.
9. Rick Warren, Networth: 25 Million.
10. Lee Strobel, Networth: 8 Million.<J0>

end

This appears to be a collection of misinformation posted for the purpose of smearing these ministers/ministries.
See e.g.

He [Rick Warren] and his wife consider themselves “reverse tithers.” They live on 10 percent of their income and donate the rest to charity.
“I drive a 12-year-old Ford, have lived in the same house for the last 22 years, bought my watch at Wal-Mart, and I don’t own a boat or a jet,” Warren once said of his lifestyle in a media interview.
Read more at 8 Richest Pastors in America

RaymondG · Feb 24, 2019

I would not take spiritual advice from anyone who feel they can judge another's spiritual status knowing only their net worth. As if they themselves paid from thier own salvation with money given or monies they refused to receive.

To think you are better off than another solely by the comparison of bank accounts is a very dangerous notion.....one who does this is the servant of mammon.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

Der Alter said:
<J0>According to Google:
1. Pat Robertson, Networth: 100 Million.
2. Billy Graham, Networth when he died: 25 Million.
3. T.D. Jakes, Networth: 147 Million.
4. Kenneth Copeland, Networth: Although Celebrity Net Worth reported his worth at $300 million, other reports say Copeland could be worth $750 million or more.
5. Joel Olsteen, Networth: 55 Million.
6. Benny Hinn, Networth: 42 Million.
7. Joyce Meyer, Networth: 8 Million.
8. Joseph Prince, Networth: 5 Million.
9. Rick Warren, Networth: 25 Million.
10. Lee Strobel, Networth: 8 Million.<J0>
This appears to be a collection of misinformation posted for the purpose of smearing these ministers/ministries.
See e.g.

He [Rick Warren] and his wife consider themselves “reverse tithers.” They live on 10 percent of their income and donate the rest to charity.
“I drive a 12-year-old Ford, have lived in the same house for the last 22 years, bought my watch at Wal-Mart, and I don’t own a boat or a jet,” Warren once said of his lifestyle in a media interview.
Read more at 8 Richest Pastors in America

I am only reporting what Google says about them. But even if it is not an exact number, I am sure they are all still millionaires.

Rick Warren, may give away all his money to the poor. I don't know. There is no official tax document saying what he does. It says he lives off 10% of his income. Even 10% of 25 million networth is 2 million and a half. That is still pretty luxurious.

Here is what a tax expert says about Rick Warren's giving.

Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy

Rick Warren is a pastor of the Saddleback megachurch in California and bestselling author. He says he “reverse tithes”—gives 90% of his income to his church.

I’m wondering how that works. Current charitable deductions are limited to 50% of AGI. Anything beyond that can be carried over to future years, but that wouldn’t help Warren if he gives 90% every year. If he actually donated 90% every year, he’d still pay tax on half of his income. If he earns $10 million and pays an average of 30% in tax, he’d have to pay 30% of $5 million, or $1.5 million in tax. Given that he only keeps $1 million, he’d come up $500,000 short every year. (It could be worse than that. The top individual income tax rate is 35% and he also has to pay California state income taxes, assuming his residence is near his church. And income-related phaseouts of itemized deductions and other provisions could further raise his effective tax rate.) Maybe he pays the shortfall out of his savings, although that seems unlikely. Maybe he includes the taxes he pays in the 90%, although in that case, he’s way overstating how much he’s giving to the church. It’s likely 75% of his income or less. Maybe he gives 90% of his after tax income. (Law professor Ellen Aprill pointed out to me that there is a lively debate about whether tithing refers to pre-tax or after-tax income. See, e.g., this theological discussion. My favorite bit of guidance on whether to tithe out of gross or net income is: "just decide if you want net blessings or gross blessings.")

Maybe Warren channels a portion of his book royalties directly to the church, although it’s not clear that this would be kosher. Ellen discussed the tax consequences of Obama’s doing this with his Nobel Prize on the taxprof blog. In Obama’s case, a special rule would allow redirecting Nobels and Pulitzers, but that wouldn't apply to book royalties.

Alternatively, Warren might have donated all or a share of his book copyrights to his church. First Lady Hillary Clinton donated her book royalties to charity, but Tax Notes pundit Lee Sheppard suggested she should have donated the copyright and claimed an up-front charitable deduction without ever taking the royalties as income. Law professor Calvin Johnson pointed out that she couldn’t claim a deduction because the copyright is not a capital asset. (The same rules apply to artists who donate artworks to museums. It’s the right answer from a tax perspective, but is extremely unpopular with wealthy artists and museums.)

Rev. Warren’s had trouble with the IRS in the past over his $80,000 a year parsonage allowance, which the IRS argued was excessive because it exceeded the fair market rental value of his home. Warren argued the allowance should be entirely tax-free on the grounds that it’s an important aid to struggling clergy. Although courts ultimately ruled in Warren’s favor, the Congress later changed the rule in line with the IRS’s interpretation.

Viewing seemingly mundane events through the prism of tax policy can make them endlessly fascinating.

Happy New Year!

Leonard E. Burman
Co-founder the Tax Policy Center.

Source:
Rev. Rick Warren’s Extreme Philanthropy

Perhaps this is why Warren says he refuses to take income from his church.
Jesus says to the rich to sell all that they have and give it to the poor, and come follow Him. Rick Warren does not openly share his actual networth or how much he spends each year with everyone. It is very foggy and vague. If he was truly up front with people, he would provide how much he is worth or how much he can spend in a year. Surely, Rick does not want to lose people going to his church, so of course he is going to say the things that he does. The real test of truth is if he has a tax person disclose his real generated income, savings, and property values, etc. (Networth). My guess, he is still rich and or a millionaire. Being rich is condemned in the New Covenant.

9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,..."
(1 Timothy 6:9-12).

Rick also does not always clearly preach the gospel in the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and He was risen for our salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

RaymondG said:
I would not take spiritual advice from anyone who feel they can judge another's spiritual status knowing only their net worth. As if they themselves paid from thier own salvation with money given or monies they refused to receive.

To think you are better off than another solely by the comparison of bank accounts is a very dangerous notion.....one who does this is the servant of mammon.

I am only offering the truth of what Jesus says. Jesus says do not put your treasure here upon this Earth, but put your treasure in Heaven. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Obviously if somebody has lots of money, they have lots of treasure here upon this Earth. Thus, their heart is here upon this Earth with their treasure.

1 Timothy 6 says this.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."
(1 Timothy 6:9-11).

It says the rich (i.e. millionaires) fall into temptation, and into many foolish hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction, and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil. This is talking about the rich. Those who are rich. Those who are rich... love money. If you have a large comic book collection, you love comic books. If you have Elvis Presley everywhere in your home, you love Elvis Presley. If have lots of money, you love money. Hence, you are rich.

What is interesting is that in verse 11 it says to FLEE these things. It is saying to flee the pursuit in being rich or the love of money. We are to instead follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, etc.

This is all a part of fighting the good fight of faith so that we can lay hold on eternal life.

Jesus says it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Why do you think the rich young ruler went away sad?
If it was possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven being rich, then Jesus would have said for him that there was a way for him to keep his wealth to some degree and still follow Him.

Just Another User · Feb 24, 2019

The cost of discipleship in Luke 14:26-33 is willing to die for the faith, putting God first so much that your family thinks you hate them and forsaking all possessions. If we can't do these than our King says we aren't disciples. If Zacchaeus felt he needed to give half of his possessions to the poor and to pay back everyone 4 times over and Jesus was pleased, we should think about this. Christ said blessed is the poor and poor in spirit, not those who are wealthy and those who desire more.

Acts 4:32-35

"And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need."

Isn't that beautiful? Where we have forsaken our possessions and that there is now nothing which we own because we share everything.

If you think that was only the Jerusalem church you'd be wrong. It was practiced universally in the first 300 years of the church.

The Didache (c.75 AD) "You shall not turn away from him that is in want, but you shall share all things with your brother, and shall not say that they are your own; for if you are partakers in that which is immortal, how much more in things which are mortal?"

Justin Martyr - First Apology (c.150 AD) "We who valued above all things the acquisition of wealth and possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and share to every one in need."

Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 4 (c.180 AD) and instead of the law enjoining the giving of tithes, He told us to share all our possessions with the poor"

Against Heresies Book 4 (c. 180 AD) "And for this reason the Jews had indeed the tithes of their goods consecrated to Him, but those who have received liberty set aside all their possessions for the Lord's purposes, bestowing joyfully and freely not the less valuable portions of their property, since they have the hope of better things; as that poor widow acted who cast all her living into the treasury of God."

Tertullian - Apology (c.197 AD) "But on this very account, perhaps, we are regarded as having less claim to be held true brothers, that no tragedy makes a noise in our brotherhood, or that the family possessions, which generally destroy brotherhood among you, create fraternal bonds among us. One in mind and soul, we do not hesitate to share our earthly goods with one another. All things are common among us but our wives."

devin553344 · Feb 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?

What's your goal: Mark 10:25 You should probably only take advice from people headed the way you want to end up. That seems like wisdom to me

Bible Highlighter · Feb 24, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Best re-read vs 17-19 a few more times and slowly. The rich are among the saved too if they conduct themselves according to the Gospel.

17 "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."
(1 Timothy 6:17-19) (KJV).

Ready to distribute what? Their riches. For what purpose? So that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Meaning: They don't have it.
They don't have eternal life because they still need to lay hold on eternal life.

Let's look at the ERV.

17 Give this command to those who are rich with the things of this world. Tell them not to be proud. Tell them to hope in God, not their money. Money cannot be trusted, but God takes care of us richly. He gives us everything to enjoy.
18 Tell those who are rich to do good—to be rich in good works. And tell them they should be happy to give and ready to share.
19 By doing this, they will be saving up a treasure for themselves. And that treasure will be a strong foundation on which their future life will be built. They will be able to have the life that is true life.
(1 Timothy 6:17-19).

Tell them to hope in God, and not their money. Two choices. One either hopes in God or they hope in their money. By their fruits you will know them. If they hope in money, they will continue to hold on to their riches.

For example:
If you vote (with it being voluntary), you are placing your hope in that leader so that they may make changes for your country for the better. If you want the best leader, but your ultimately hope is in God, you would prayer for the best leader to get into office instead. You place your hope and trust in God to make that decision instead. So your actions shows where your hope is placed.

You said:
Not everyone who is rich has sought to become rich. And those that are rich are specifically addressed both in these passages you cite as well as elsewhere in the Scriptures.

Not everyone who is a murderer, set out to be one. There are kids in other countries who are forced to kill. That does not mean a person can remain a murderer and also be a follower of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the rich young ruler went away sad (Who was unwilling to give up His riches to follow Jesus). If there was a way that the rich young ruler could keep his wealth, and yet He could still follow Jesus, why did Jesus not explain this to the man? Why did Jesus let Him go?

You said:
See James 1:10-11...here we see that the rich fade from their worldly glory.
You sound envious and spiteful and judgemental rather than full of mercy and pity for those among the rich who are not yet in line with the Scripture.

James 1:11 says the rich will fade away in their ways. So James is speaking negatively of them.

James also says, "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? " (James 2:5-6).

Again, this is a negative comment about the rich. James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. James says yet another negative thing about the rich.

You said:
James says Have mercy for mercy triumphs over judgement...and...judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. (James 2:13 paraphrase)

This is not about justifying sin.

"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." (James 2:13).

The Lord Jesus will have judgment without mercy upon those who shown favor to the rich over showing no favor to the poor. The people in who James is writing to did not show mercy to the poor brethren and they instead gave favor to the rich brethren.

Mercy rejoices against judgment.

Meaning: If they had mercy on the poor brethren, they would not be judged.

We see this in Matthew 25:31-46.
For if we do not help the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire.

Should we listen or learn from Christians who are millionaires?

Should we take advice from Christians who are millionaires?

Yes.

No.

Maybe, it depends.

Other - Please explain.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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