Quaker silence

DamianWarS

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While when I went I was already someone that was reading Christ's words in the gospels, so that...I already was hearing what we definitely need to hear in some way...it was good in a certain way: instead of people talking from ego, or entertainment, or a fixed sermon without enough openness to the spirit (which happens of course at times in churches), instead of those, it was more like prayer, but together. We were "waiting on the Lord" at best. I know I was.

I would not go to a Quaker Meeting for Worship instead of a church with communion and preaching from the gospel!

Wouldn't even consider it.

But, I'd want to bring the one thing very good they are doing, and which many churches do -- seeking the Lord in some way, such as candle lighting, or moments of silence, or other ways, the waiting on the Lord. Seeking Him. Matthew ch 7, v 7-11

Of course, any believer can definitely do this on their own, alone, and many of us can, and being able to, should.

waiting upon the Lord in quietness is good but emotion should not be look as evil. When we reject emotion in worship we end up separating the holy from the secular (arbitrarily) so I'm wondering what the product of emotionalless worship looks like? is emotion evil to a quaker? Can worship exisit through emotion?
 
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Pioneer3mm

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waiting upon the Lord in quietness is good but emotion should not be look as evil. When we reject emotion in worship we end up separating the holy from the secular (arbitrarily) so I'm wondering what the product of emotionalless worship looks like? is emotion evil to a quaker? Can worship exisit through emotion?

Good point..
"Emotional" side is important. Also "being quiet / stillness"
is needed.
---
Did any Quaker respond/reply to this thread/topic?
- Or did I miss the reply?
---
I prefer to hear from "real" Quaker...

Blessings,
 
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icxn

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Also see post #14 for a good article gathering quotes from many Christians on this same silence/seeking/meditation/prayer.
I hope you wouldn't mind me adding to your list of quotes something from St John Climacus' Ladder of Divine Ascent. He has a chapter on silence, which is aptly short and therefore easy to quote in its entirety:

1. In the preceding chapter we spoke briefly of how extremely dangerous it is to judge others or rather to be judged and punished by one’s own tongue and of how this vice steals into even the most apparently spiritual people. Now we must show the cause of this vice, and give a proper account of the door by which it enters, or rather, goes out.
2. Talkativeness is the throne of vainglory on which it loves to show itself and make a display. Talkativeness is a sign of ignorance, a door to slander, a guide to jesting, a servant of falsehood, the ruin of compunction, a creator of despondency, a precursor of sleep, the dissipation of recollection, the abolition of watchfulness, the cooling of ardor, the darkening of prayer.
3. Deliberate silence is the mother of prayer, a recall from captivity, preservation of fire, an overseer of thoughts, a watch against enemies, a prison of mourning, a friend of tears, effective remembrance of death, a depicter of punishment, a delver into judgment, a minister of godly sorrow, an enemy of freedom of speech, a companion of stillness, an opponent of desire to teach, increase of knowledge, a creator of contemplation, unseen progress, secret ascent.
4. He who has become aware of his sins has controlled his tongue, but a talkative person has not yet got to know himself as he should.
5. The friend of silence draws near to God, and by secretly conversing with Him, is enlightened by God.
6. The silence of Jesus put Pilate to shame, and by a man’s stillness vainglory is vanquished.
7. Peter, having said a word, lamented it bitterly, because he forgot him who said: ‘I said, I will take heed to my ways that I sin not with my tongue,' and the other who said: ‘A fall from a height to the ground is better than a slip with the tongue.’
8. I do not wish to write much about this, even though the wiles of the passions urge me to do so. But I once heard from someone who asked me about silence that talkativeness is invariably born of one of the following causes: either from a bad, lax environment and habit (for the tongue, said he, being a member of the body, like the rest of the members, requires the training of habit), or again, in the case of ascetics, garrulity comes especially from vainglory, and sometimes also from gluttony. That is why many who bridle the stomach by force afterwards easily check the tongue and its chatter.
9. He who is anxious about his departure, cuts down words; and he who has obtained spiritual mourning, shuns talkativeness like fire.
10. He who has come to love silence shuts his mouth, but he who delights in wandering about outside is driven out of his cell by his passion.
11. He who knows the fragrance of the Fire from on high, runs from a concourse of men like a bee from smoke; for the bee is routed by smoke, whereas man is hampered by company.
12. Few can hold water without a dike; still fewer can tame an intemperate mouth.
The eleventh step. He who has mastered it has cut off at one blow a multitude of evils.
 
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NeedyFollower

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Exactly. Private is what it says, a meeting place between us and God with no interference. Churches cannot survive unless we focus on them rather than having just a private relationship with God. The ceremony, confusion and hubbub are essential to it's survival.
Hi Brother ...It seems to me that man is often prone to apostasy. I have been informed by some who belong to the "Society of Friends" aka Quakers that there are sects of Quakers who are not Christo-centric ..in other words , more like B'ahai in that Christ is not necessary nor acknowledged ...A follower of that group also said that an atheist can become a member of that group. I am familiar a bit with G Fox' history and the early Quakers and this is markedly different than their understanding.
Humanism , i.e Man centered theology can take on many disguises with religious being the most difficult to detect for it promotes kindness , the brotherhood of man , etc.
I believe in a place for scripture ...for reading the word , to question and ask for God's understanding ..For God's point of view .
 
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Halbhh

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waiting upon the Lord in quietness is good but emotion should not be look as evil. When we reject emotion in worship we end up separating the holy from the secular (arbitrarily) so I'm wondering what the product of emotionalless worship looks like? is emotion evil to a quaker? Can worship exisit through emotion?
I'm not familiar with Quaker viewpoints enough to speculate whether there is any common viewpoint about emotions, and I don't expect Quakers are mostly emotionless.

Generally, we know that people individually have temperaments, where some are more introverted while some more extraverted, some more thinking and some more emotional, and such qualities are simply part of our natural being, which can be directed to good or ill by what we follow. When I feel awe (an emotion) about God's grace, or His creation, this is simply part of my response to the amazing, wonderful reality. If someone else feels more or less than me about something, that doesn't tell me much, though I'm often delighted with either someone testifying about their emotional experience or their more thinking type response to such wonderful things.
 
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Halbhh

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I hope you wouldn't mind me adding to your list of quotes something from St John Climacus' Ladder of Divine Ascent. He has a chapter on silence, which is aptly short and therefore easy to quote in its entirety:

1. In the preceding chapter we spoke briefly of how extremely dangerous it is to judge others or rather to be judged and punished by one’s own tongue and of how this vice steals into even the most apparently spiritual people. Now we must show the cause of this vice, and give a proper account of the door by which it enters, or rather, goes out.
2. Talkativeness is the throne of vainglory on which it loves to show itself and make a display. Talkativeness is a sign of ignorance, a door to slander, a guide to jesting, a servant of falsehood, the ruin of compunction, a creator of despondency, a precursor of sleep, the dissipation of recollection, the abolition of watchfulness, the cooling of ardor, the darkening of prayer.
3. Deliberate silence is the mother of prayer, a recall from captivity, preservation of fire, an overseer of thoughts, a watch against enemies, a prison of mourning, a friend of tears, effective remembrance of death, a depicter of punishment, a delver into judgment, a minister of godly sorrow, an enemy of freedom of speech, a companion of stillness, an opponent of desire to teach, increase of knowledge, a creator of contemplation, unseen progress, secret ascent.
4. He who has become aware of his sins has controlled his tongue, but a talkative person has not yet got to know himself as he should.
5. The friend of silence draws near to God, and by secretly conversing with Him, is enlightened by God.
6. The silence of Jesus put Pilate to shame, and by a man’s stillness vainglory is vanquished.
7. Peter, having said a word, lamented it bitterly, because he forgot him who said: ‘I said, I will take heed to my ways that I sin not with my tongue,' and the other who said: ‘A fall from a height to the ground is better than a slip with the tongue.’
8. I do not wish to write much about this, even though the wiles of the passions urge me to do so. But I once heard from someone who asked me about silence that talkativeness is invariably born of one of the following causes: either from a bad, lax environment and habit (for the tongue, said he, being a member of the body, like the rest of the members, requires the training of habit), or again, in the case of ascetics, garrulity comes especially from vainglory, and sometimes also from gluttony. That is why many who bridle the stomach by force afterwards easily check the tongue and its chatter.
9. He who is anxious about his departure, cuts down words; and he who has obtained spiritual mourning, shuns talkativeness like fire.
10. He who has come to love silence shuts his mouth, but he who delights in wandering about outside is driven out of his cell by his passion.
11. He who knows the fragrance of the Fire from on high, runs from a concourse of men like a bee from smoke; for the bee is routed by smoke, whereas man is hampered by company.
12. Few can hold water without a dike; still fewer can tame an intemperate mouth.
The eleventh step. He who has mastered it has cut off at one blow a multitude of evils.

I was reminded of many parts of scripture --

Matthew 15:11 A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it."

Proverbs 12:18 Speaking rashly is like a piercing sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

And more--
What Does the Bible Say About Taming Your Tongue?

What Does the Bible Say About Silence?


But the best part of silence is the seeking, waiting on the Lord, the prayer beyond (our) words, from the Spirit (Romans chapter 8 --

18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose.
 
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Halbhh

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I hope you wouldn't mind me adding to your list of quotes something from St John Climacus' Ladder of Divine Ascent. He has a chapter on silence, which is aptly short and therefore easy to quote in its entirety:

1. In the preceding chapter we spoke briefly of how extremely dangerous it is to judge others or rather to be judged and punished by one’s own tongue and of how this vice steals into even the most apparently spiritual people. Now we must show the cause of this vice, and give a proper account of the door by which it enters, or rather, goes out.
2. Talkativeness is the throne of vainglory on which it loves to show itself and make a display. Talkativeness is a sign of ignorance, a door to slander, a guide to jesting, a servant of falsehood, the ruin of compunction, a creator of despondency, a precursor of sleep, the dissipation of recollection, the abolition of watchfulness, the cooling of ardor, the darkening of prayer.
3. Deliberate silence is the mother of prayer, a recall from captivity, preservation of fire, an overseer of thoughts, a watch against enemies, a prison of mourning, a friend of tears, effective remembrance of death, a depicter of punishment, a delver into judgment, a minister of godly sorrow, an enemy of freedom of speech, a companion of stillness, an opponent of desire to teach, increase of knowledge, a creator of contemplation, unseen progress, secret ascent.
4. He who has become aware of his sins has controlled his tongue, but a talkative person has not yet got to know himself as he should.
5. The friend of silence draws near to God, and by secretly conversing with Him, is enlightened by God.
6. The silence of Jesus put Pilate to shame, and by a man’s stillness vainglory is vanquished.
7. Peter, having said a word, lamented it bitterly, because he forgot him who said: ‘I said, I will take heed to my ways that I sin not with my tongue,' and the other who said: ‘A fall from a height to the ground is better than a slip with the tongue.’
8. I do not wish to write much about this, even though the wiles of the passions urge me to do so. But I once heard from someone who asked me about silence that talkativeness is invariably born of one of the following causes: either from a bad, lax environment and habit (for the tongue, said he, being a member of the body, like the rest of the members, requires the training of habit), or again, in the case of ascetics, garrulity comes especially from vainglory, and sometimes also from gluttony. That is why many who bridle the stomach by force afterwards easily check the tongue and its chatter.
9. He who is anxious about his departure, cuts down words; and he who has obtained spiritual mourning, shuns talkativeness like fire.
10. He who has come to love silence shuts his mouth, but he who delights in wandering about outside is driven out of his cell by his passion.
11. He who knows the fragrance of the Fire from on high, runs from a concourse of men like a bee from smoke; for the bee is routed by smoke, whereas man is hampered by company.
12. Few can hold water without a dike; still fewer can tame an intemperate mouth.
The eleventh step. He who has mastered it has cut off at one blow a multitude of evils.
Very much like Proverbs 29:11
 
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icxn

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Very much like Proverbs 29:11
And Sirach 20:5-8

5 There is one that keepeth silence, and is found wise: and another by much babbling becometh hateful. 6 Some man holdeth his tongue, because he hath not to answer: and some keepeth silence, knowing his time. 7 A wise man will hold his tongue till he see opportunity: but a babbler and a fool will regard no time. 8 He that useth many words shall be abhorred; and he that taketh to himself authority therein shall be hated.​
 
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Pioneer3mm

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Update: To me, this thread is about what there is in the silent gathering that some Quakers do (the older "Meeting for Worship" kind) that appeals to us on some level, and why, and how it might be in some ways an aid for some believers in Christ Jesus that hear too much of the noise of the world to better pray as Paul wrote of in Romans chapter 8 -- how we don't know enough on our own often, about what to pray for, deeper things than we understand at times, and need the spirit to intercede and pray for us. How we might better seek the Lord (Matthew chapter 7), and wait on the Lord, and pray with the spirit (Romans chapter 8).

(Also see post #14 for a good article gathering quotes from many Christians on this same silence/seeking/meditation/prayer).

====

"Quaker -- a member of the Religious Society of Friends, a Christian movement founded by George Fox c. 1650 and devoted to peaceful principles. Central to the Quakers' belief is the doctrine of the “Inner Light,” or sense of Christ's direct working in the soul. This has led them to reject both formal ministry and all set forms of worship."


" Around 11% of Friends practice waiting worship, or unprogrammed worship(more commonly known today as Meeting for Worship), where the order of service is not planned in advance, is predominantly silent, and may include unprepared vocal ministry from those present. " Quakers - Wikipedia


"Wisdom from an Early Quaker
Isaac Penington

"After the mind
is in some measure turned to the Lord – his quickenings felt, his seed beginning to arise and spring up in the heart – then the flesh is to be silent before him, and the soul to wait upon him (and for his further appearings) in that measure of life which is already revealed.

"Now, this is a great thing: to know flesh silenced, to feel the reasoning thoughts and discourses of the fleshly mind stilled, and the wisdom, light, and guidance of God’s spirit waited for. For we are to come into the poverty of self, into the abasedness, into the nothingness, into the silence of our spirit before the Lord; into the putting off of all our knowledge, wisdom, understanding, abilities, all that we are, have done, or can do, out of this measure of life, into which we are to travel, that we may be clothed and filled with the nature, Spirit, and power of the Lord.

"God is to be worshipped in spirit, in his own power and life, and this is at his own disposal.
...
Waiting in Silence


Isaiah 40:31 But those who wait upon the LORD will renew their strength; they will mount up with wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary; they will walk and not faint.


Back after I prayed to God to bring me to Him, and then slid backwards off a 2nd story roof above large rocks, prayed "Help!" in 1/2 of a second, and woke up without bruises perfectly balanced on a porch rail below with only a superficial cut (and scar) to show for it past my own testimony....

For a time I pursued a wonderful person who wanted to attend some Quaker services, the old kind, where they wait for the Spirit.

So we did.

Altogether I've been to 3 of the services where we sat together, in a circle, and waited, in silence.

It was very very good.

There's something wonderful about tamping down the ego, and having others tamp down their ego, especially for me back in that time, when I'd not yet found a church home, and it was all new again, and all unknown....

We waited about 10 minutes one time, and then someone spoke.

It's such a relief to wait, to be silent!

I kept waiting for someone to destroy it, to speak up, because of fear or ego. But they did not. Minute after minute.

Good topic / thread.
---
You wrote Isaiah 40:31
- My favorite scripture.
"Waiting on the Lord" is discipline I am still learning.
---
"Wait On The Lord." Song By Maranatha
Verse 1
Wait on the Lord
Listen to His Voice.
They that wait upon the Lord
shall renew their strength.
Verse 2
Wait on the Lord.
Let His Spirit move
Where the Spirit of the Lord is,
There is peace, sweet peace
( My favorite song )
---
As someone indicated on reply/post, current Quaker is probably different from early days of movement..original vision, focus etc.
- following same pattern of any movement in Christian History.
 
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Monna

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Interesting how so many on this thread describe the Qualkers' silent get-togethers as...
unprogrammed meetings

The Quaker meeting was definitely programmed silence for an hour.

Having grown up in a church that spent at least an hour focused on the eucharist, but unprogrammed in terms of what songs to sing and when, what or who prayed, or shared a scripture passage on the Lord Jesus, and with lots of silent spaces during which to meditate, I found the Quaker meeting very pleasant. But I'm convinced that it was because I came in the right state of mind - to focus specifically on my Lord and listen for His voice.

None of the people there however, shared a single thought about the Lord Jesus or God, with me after the service. So I have no evidence that anyone else had, or had not, received any message from the Holy Spirit. It was very much a gathering of people, doing this meditation in one place, but there was little that I could see that was true "communing." One time is probably not enough.
 
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PloverWing

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The Quaker meeting was definitely programmed silence for an hour.
Just to clarify, "unprogrammed" doesn't mean unplanned. It's part of Quaker jargon: "Unprogrammed" worship refers to the type of meeting that is mostly silent, and "programmed" worship refers to a more conventional style of worship, with singing, a sermon, and so on. More detailed explanations of these and other Quaker terms are here:

Branches of Friends Today | Quaker Information Center
Programmed Quaker Worship
Unprogrammed Quaker worship

My experience has been entirely with unprogrammed meetings, as those are more common here in the Philadelphia area. I understand that programmed meetings are more common further west; they sound interesting, but I have not had the opportunity to visit one.
 
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Halbhh

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Resurrecting this thread, any update on your thoughts @Halbhh ?
Longer times of silence, which we do sometimes use once a year in our Lutheran church during Good Friday (depending on who organizes the service liturgy) ...is such a good thing, at that time. There are likely other times when it could be good, in special services, such as around Christmas possibly, when it would be good to do. Or perhaps even once a month or once a quarter (every 3 months) like on a Friday evening prayer service possibly.

What're your thoughts?
 
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Halbhh

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Resurrecting this thread, any update on your thoughts @Halbhh ?
Also, let me add that for myself personally, those times of silence are very wonderful usually. It's a good time to seek the Lord.

It's a good way to wait on the Lord.

but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.
 
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I completely agree, silence is a blessing at times. My Lutheran parish does not really have many opportunities as such. However, I frequently go to an Adoration chapel at a Catholic church that is open almost all the time for quiet prayer and reflection.
 
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I've been an on-and-off Quaker attender since June 2017, and I find that the silence has helped me exceedingly in my walk with Christ. I recommend that those considering a Friends Meeting/Church as their Sunday worship gathering visit multiple places, as there can be great differences from one to another.

I actually didn't know about Lutheran worship incorporating silence (glad to hear about it, though!). I only (kind of--it was online) attended a Lutheran service once, and it was one of the very liberal ones. I know that the ELCA and Missouri-Synod have great differences. I wonder if the incorporation of silence may be one of them.
 
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I actually didn't know about Lutheran worship incorporating silence (glad to hear about it, though!). I only (kind of--it was online) attended a Lutheran service once, and it was one of the very liberal ones. I know that the ELCA and Missouri-Synod have great differences. I wonder if the incorporation of silence may be one of them.
No, it's not. Before you get your hopes up too high, know that there is no other denomination( except perhaps Christian Science) that is even close to traditional Quakerism when it comes to that silence element you value.

Yes, the liturgical churches--Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc.--have a certain attitude towards the seriousness and mystery of the worship service itself that produces something along the lines of what we're talking about, but it's nothing like what you've experienced in a Quaker meeting.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, it's not. Before you get your hopes up too high, know that there is no other denomination( except perhaps Christian Science) that is even close to traditional Quakerism when it comes to that silence element you value.

Yes, the liturgical churches--Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc.--have a certain attitude towards the seriousness and mystery of the worship service itself that produces something along the lines of what we're talking about, but it's nothing like what you've experienced in a Quaker meeting.

I feel inclined to contest this point with examples of silence which might be more extreme than Quaker praxis, in many cases, three very obvious cases being Cistercian / Trappist and especially Carthusian monastic silence, the RC practices of Eucharistic devotion such as the Holy Hour, I suppose I could even cite the Roman low mass, which is mostly silent except for sacring bells, and then we also have the Eastern monastic practice of Hesychasm. These examples strike me as being more severe than Quaker waiting worship in terms of silence, because one would certainly not feel welcome to vocalize a pious thought or prayer as one felt moved to do so. There is also generally more structure, but not inherently or at all times, for example, the near complete silence Carthusians and Trappists are known for exists, for example, in the case of Carthusians, at most times other than the conventual mass.
 
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I feel inclined to contest this point with examples of silence which might be more extreme than Quaker praxis, in many cases, three very obvious cases being Cistercian / Trappist
and especially Carthusian monastic silence, the RC practices of Eucharistic devotion such as the Holy Hour,
Well, yes, but our friend was looking for a church for himself, one that is similar to the traditional Quakers when it comes to worship.

What you've cited are some internal exceptions in those denominations you named. If he were to join one of those denominations, expecting Quaker-like silence in worship, he would have a lot of trouble finding it, and if he did, it would be on a rare occasion.

Here's what he wrote about experiencing a Quaker meeting:

So we did.

Altogether I've been to 3 of the services where we sat together, in a circle, and waited, in silence.

It was very very good.

I took that to mean he wanted to experience that style himself as a normal part of his worship life.
 
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