Have you ever heard of different churches keeping and sharing notes on people?

justme6272 said:

Not that I know of. Who could? How could they? The elders would have to do it, but why would they when they were complicit? That's like a thief bringing charges against himself. Not happening.

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Why couldn’t you have spoken up, and other members of the congregation?

justme6272 said:

I could have but didn't think it would do any good based on past experiences with pastors in general. If you haven't heard, they know everything, and you dare not even ask questions about their superior decision making skills.

Others may have and I wouldn't even know about it. If they did, it might be why what started out as an annual thing to do, only lasted one year. Their grandiose plan may have been an abysmal failure. I can't predict if other people even read the terms of use before continuing on. I read every word of it and went, 'um, no.'

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When leadership is wrong or oppressing the people, you get a group of people together to confront the bad leaders. Bad things happen when no one challenges corrupt authority.

Michael Collum said:

The thing I was looking at was however was the fruit, it's more than just the rigorous teaching in the scripture, the type of discipleship the apostles offered would have been far superior (Spiritually) to the jewish "scripture only" type of discipleship.

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Except Jewish discipleship was NOT “scripture only.” It was an entire lifestyle.

justme6272 said:

Not that I know of. Who could? How could they? The elders would have to do it, but why would they when they were complicit? That's like a thief bringing charges against himself. Not happening.

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One reason I do not like congregations that are not part of a larger organization.

Dave-W said:

Except Jewish discipleship was NOT “scripture only.” It was an entire lifestyle.

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Sure it was, but If there's no difference, it kinda begs the question: Did Jesus die for for nothing?

justme6272 said:

In secret? Without your knowledge? Why the secrets?

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I agree that it should not be secret. Everything should be in the open and aboveboard. I have nothing to hide and would never fill out personal information on a computer for someone else to store.

Natsumi Lam said:

I think keeping tabs on people is both an beneficial and dangerous.

I think it is beneficial in instances where someone goes to a church to purposely bring division and strife. The person hops from church to church to do the same.

I think it is detrimental if someone is heartbroken and leaves a congregation to get away from strife and their "record" follows them because someone at the old church has a vendetta.

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If a church-hopping person is dangerous, people are going to remember. If there is criminal activity, that would be on record. I think it is inappropriate to simply compile information about people without their knowledge and consent.

justme6272 said:

Not that I know of. Who could? How could they? The elders would have to do it, but why would they when they were complicit? That's like a thief bringing charges against himself. Not happening.

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I think this is the fatal flaw of completely autonomous churches, if the buck stops at the pastor or a board of elders, without any other forms of accountability and oversight, that's a major problem. Obviously corruption can occur even in a highly structured organization, we just have to see the rampant problems that have been happening in the Roman Catholic Church where problem clergy have been shuffled around and their crimes are kept hush hush instead of openly dealt with.

In Lutheranism we understand that clergy are called and ordained by the Church, as such they are held accountable to the Church and can be likewise dismissed by the Church. A problem pastor can have their privileges as a minister completely revoked so that they can no longer serve in a ministerial capacity at Altar and Pulpit. Clergy are not lords, but servants. The fulfilling of the vocational office of the sacred ministry--of being a minister of Word and Sacrament--is not a right, but a privilege. No individual Christian has the right to impose themselves against the Church. This was precisely the historic Lutheran criticism against sacerdotalism broadly and the papacy in particular. It was never an attack on the Office of the Keys as exercised by ministers of the Word, nor an attack against the apostolic chair of St. Peter; but rather against the unscrupulous abuses of power by men imposing themselves over and against the Church. To act as kings and lords over the Church rather than as humble servants of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

justme6272 said:

1. Church A keeps database info on everything they know about you as a result of you attending there.
2. You quit Church A and start going to Church B where you want to get involved in VOLUNTEER ministry or just join the church.
3. Church B finds out you attended Church A and secretly calls them up to get the scoop on your life, even though you haven't filled out any applications at Church B or given permission to investigate your church past or go snooping for unlisted references.

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Yeah. That's called INTER-CHURCH GOSSIP NETWORK.

Jr.

SwordmanJr said:

Yeah. That's called INTER-CHURCH GOSSIP NETWORK.

Jr.

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It's always nice to know that some, or most, church organizations see all of us non-clergy class, lowly laity as people who are presently defined by all our past mistakes and sins.

As far as I'm concerned, we ALL have sinned, and I will not hold your past sins against you, nor your past mistakes. Jesus expects us to forgive one another as He has forgiven us. It's sad that some clergy out there don't practice what's written in that "book of suggestions" (as they sometimes treat it) they carry into services that has the title, "The Bible" written on the front cover.

If it's good enough for the Mormons to do this, then why not the non-cult organizations?

Jr.

SwordmanJr said:

Yeah. That's called INTER-CHURCH GOSSIP NETWORK.

Jr.

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When you combine the GOSPEL with GOSSIP, you get GOSSIPEL....

No, I have never heard of any churches doing that. This isn't to say it is not possible, but I have not heard of it. What denomination, etc. are we talking about?

zephcom said:

Every wonder why the Catholic Church requires regular confessions?? Ever wonder why Church leaders recommend Christian counseling instead of licensed and regulated medical counseling?

The religion has been collecting personal data for centuries before it became popular in capitalism. It is far easier to control a population when one knows what the population is doing and thinking.

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This is untrue. It's against canon law in the Catholic church to divulge information disclosed during confession, and clergy that do so are subject to immediate excommunication. Priests have defended the seal of the confessional with their very lives.

Dave-W said:

What about gossips that have split multiple congregations by lies and innuendo?

What about people trying to steal congregants away to their own organizations?

What about people trying to disseminate false doctrines?

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If somebody is that much of a problem, the local church council or synod could always pass a resolution and require restitution or penance on the part of the individual, and share that information with other churches. Generally, though, something that egregious just doesn't happen very often, at least in churches I have been in.

FireDragon76 said:

Generally, though, something that egregious just doesn't happen very often, at least in churches I have been in.

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My guess is they stay away from denominational churches and do their stuff in the independent and autonomous congregations.

Dave-W said:

Better to talk to a priest or pastor in private than to have God reveal to someone with a prophetic word of knowledge gift and they say it in front of the congregation. (I have seen that happen a few times)

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Or one of those congregations where confession is expected to be public.

zephcom said:

Every wonder why the Catholic Church requires regular confessions?? Ever wonder why Church leaders recommend Christian counseling instead of licensed and regulated medical counseling?

The religion has been collecting personal data for centuries before it became popular in capitalism. It is far easier to control a population when one knows what the population is doing and thinking.

Religion is the last unregulated activity in America.

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And I suppose you have some evidence that this didn't come from a head suffering from aluminum foil poisoning?

Someone has found a hidden vault containing centuries of documentation the Catholic church has been collecting on millions of peons around the world?

Dave-W said:

My guess is they stay away from denominational churches and do their stuff in the independent and autonomous congregations.

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From what I see here on the forum, that is likely the case. And I experienced something that was a milder version of this attending a liberal catholic community in for about 2 years or so. If the pastor/bishop had been a wolf instead of just a strong personality, I can imagine how it would have been a bad experience.

Some people put doctrinal or moral purity on a pedestal to such a degree, however, that they think they are only going to be happy in an independent church. But the downside seems to be potentially an intense, intrusive atmosphere that can easily become abusive. My S.O. was basically brainwashed by a Nazarene pastor, but thankfully he had his church taken away from him and he was defrocked (and he just went and started another church, free from the Nazarenes oversight). I can imagined that is worse in a truly independent church.

FireDragon76 said:

My S.O. was basically brainwashed by a Nazarene pastor, but thankfully he had his church taken away from him and he was defrocked (and he just went and started another church, free from the Nazarenes oversight). I can imagined that is worse in a truly independent church.

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Yeah - that is one reason I try to avoid any congregation that does not have external oversight. It may be ok for now; but it also may go off the rails at any moment with no one to bring correction to it.