Must we endure in the faith by continuously believing and repenting?

Invalidusername

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Yes, this is critical to see that God chooses!
Often, Paul says God chose and called (BACs)
---------------- to be holy!
So, if they don't co-operate, then what?
Oh, yes, God forces them to co-operate ...
they MUST be sanctified unto holiness!
They are slaves (or robots), aren't they?

Butski, Paul also says BACs must CHOOSE
to be slaves of sin ...or... slaves of obedience
(Romans 6:16) ... Is my signature invisible?

I agree. I only hope that God is long suffering and patient with BACs just as He is with the unregenerate.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm sorry, i hadn't read any of your posts. I was replying to someone else about having to consider the fate of those that are not forgiven, either now or ever; and not to consider only those that may bring damnation upon themselves through the unpardonable sin, but also those that don't, and won't, ever even recognize their being dead in sin, and so never feel the need of, ask for, or receive, the grace of Christ's atonement and God's forgiveness.
Wow. A 5 line sentence!

Re: the so-called unpardonable sin, studying the context will show that Jesus was specifically referring to those Jews who saw His miracles and attributed them to Beelzebub. No one today can commit that sin.

The only way to reconcile eternal anything, is to realize personal existence continues forever.
I never said it doesn't. But the Bible calls it the second DEATH for unbelievers. They aren't living. They are in torment forever.

And that existence is either in communion with, or separated from, the Being in which that continued existence occurs.
That was my point.

But go ahead, what was the point you had been elaborating on?
Weren't you able to determine any point from what had been elaborated on?

The whole purpose of elaboration is to clarify. Apparently my elaborations aren't getting through, so I don't think restating my point would be helpful.

However, if there is any question regarding my elaboration, please feel free to ask for further clarification.

I'm always happy to clarify what isn't clear.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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Wow. A 5 line sentence!
That's nothing, try reading The Confidence Man, by Herman Melville. I recall an entire paragraph of at least 20 lines being a single sentence.

Weren't you able to determine any point from what had been elaborated on?
I'm sorry, but had you not caught the part where I said, "sorry, I hadn't read any of your posts"?
 
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FreeGrace2

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If you read Rev. you will notice there are those within the city with God and those outside, some further away than others. This is the separation. The Lake of Fire is finite , not infinite to those of the second death. It is why death and the grave went there not being need any more, purpose finished. Man is not an eternal being to live forever there like the angels within. And those of the second death never received their reward of eternal life. They were just resurrected to judgement like those of the Kingdom.
I hope the following verses help you to understand clearly what the Bible says about the second death, which is the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Rev 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Could you explain where you get your information, since it isn't the Bible.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So apostates go to heaven? Absolutely ridiculous.
Do you understand what the word means? It means to "no longer believe what was once believed". Or, to cease to believe something that you used to believe.

The Bible speaks clearly of believers ceasing to believe. Jesus made that point in the parable of the soils, in Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

I truly cannot comprehend how anyone who claims to be a believer in Christ doesn't know these verses and the truth about believers ceasing to believe.

The Bible tells us who will be condemned, and guess what: apostates are NOT among the condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

One thing should be clear here: these verses do NOT apply to apostates, who USED to believe.

But I know that Arminians just cannot stand the thought that someone who ceases to believe will be allowed into heaven. But they just do not understand grace at all.

And Jesus was clear about recipients of eternal life; they shall never perish. John 10:28
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I'm not dodging anything."
Only all of the NT verses which warn us that one's salvation can be lost. No biggie, carry on!
I've addressed every verse you have posted which you claim that believers are warned of losing salvation. And I've pointed out that NONE of them warn of that.

Yes, they DO warn of consequences, but loss of salvation is not among them, as much as you wish otherwise.

Do you not realize that if there were ANY verses that warned of loss of salvation, then the words of Jesus in John 10:28 cannot be true?

Do you not realize that would mean that Jesus lied? Or John misquoted Him?

How come you've haven't provided an explanation of John 10:28 that shows that Jesus meant something other than the clear words SAY?
 
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FreeGrace2

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That's nothing, try reading The Confidence Man, by Herman Melville. I recall an entire paragraph of at least 20 lines being a single sentence.


I'm sorry, but had you not caught the part where I said, "sorry, I hadn't read any of your posts"?
Sorry. When you mentioned a point I had elaborated on, I assumed (my bad) that you had read at least that part.

But since you didn't read any of my posts, there's no way I can figure out what you were referring to. Sorry.
 
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St_Worm2

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I agree. I only hope that God is long suffering and patient with BACs just as He is with the unregenerate.
Why would He not be? After all, patience and kindness are perhaps the two principle ingredients in love, and "God is agape", yes, especially in regard to His children (whether they are saints or saints "to be" :)).

At the end of one of his evening devotionals, Spurgeon said this: "Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night" .. Morning and Evening, Evening, February 27th (see Jeremiah 31:3 :)). His meaning is this, those of us who are His children can and should always rest assured of God's great love for us, because He has 'always' loved us .. from everlasting .. and He always will :amen: (see too Psalm 139).

God is for us! (for those of us who will be His, and for those of us who are His already)

--David
p.s. - He has proven how great His love is as well, has He not .. e.g. John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21 even for those who are just like you and me .. e.g. Mark 2:17; Romans 4:5.

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I agree. I only hope that God is long suffering and patient with BACs just as He is with the unregenerate.
It's called grace, which those who claim that salvation can be lost do not understand.

Why would you kind of insinuate that God might not be so "long suffering and patient" with BACs just as he is with the unregenerate??

It is clear to me that Arminians aren't so long suffering and patient with BACs for fail in their Christian lives.

Even those believers who are like the 4th soil in the parable and bear much fruit STILL don't earn heaven. It's STILL by grace, all the way.

But then, you STILL don't understand that, by your comments above.
 
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timothyu

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I hope the following verses help you to understand clearly what the Bible says about the second death, which is the lake of fire.

And look who is in the Kingdom but outside the city

Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 
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Invalidusername

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Why would He not be? After all, patience and kindness are perhaps the two principle ingredients in love, and "God is agape", yes, especially in regard to His children (whether they are saints or saints "to be" :)).

At the end of one of his evening devotionals, Spurgeon said this: "Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night" .. Morning and Evening, Evening, February 27th (see Jeremiah 31:3 :)). His meaning is this, those of us who are His children can and should always rest assured of God's great love for us, because He has 'always' loved us .. from everlasting .. and He always will :amen: (see too Psalm 139).

God is for us! (for those of us who will be His, and for those of us who are His already)

--David
p.s. - He has proven how great His love is as well, has He not .. e.g. John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21 even for those who are just like you and me .. e.g. Mark 2:17; Romans 4:5.

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The problem is certain verses such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 along with 2 Peter 2:20-22. You may argue that they are somehow not genuine believers but yet they are according to the descriptions provided by those scriptures.

God seems to have a standard of, "One bounce is permitted only." Especially in the NT. It sounds like God is almost harsh with people because they know the truth and thus if they disobey they are all the more condemned. I went back to my vomit and scripture seems to indicate that it is unforgivable and that I will never be able to truly and genuinely repent again, at least not unto salvation.
 
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Invalidusername

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It's called grace, which those who claim that salvation can be lost do not understand.

Why would you kind of insinuate that God might not be so "long suffering and patient" with BACs just as he is with the unregenerate??

It is clear to me that Arminians aren't so long suffering and patient with BACs for fail in their Christian lives.

Even those believers who are like the 4th soil in the parable and bear much fruit STILL don't earn heaven. It's STILL by grace, all the way.

But then, you STILL don't understand that, by your comments above.

Grace is grace. However there is no cheap grace or hyper-grace.
 
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St_Worm2

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God seems to have a standard of, "One bounce is permitted only." Especially in the NT. It sounds like God is almost harsh with people because they know the truth and thus if they disobey they are all the more condemned. I went back to my vomit and scripture seems to indicate that it is unforgivable and that I will never be able to truly and genuinely repent again, at least not unto salvation.
Do you really believe that God has a different standard for Himself, a lower standard in this case than He has for all of us?

Matthew 18
21 Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven".

Luke 17
3 If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.

--David

Psalms 103
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul,
And all that is within me, bless His holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul,
And forget none of His benefits;
3 Who pardons all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases;
4 Who redeems your life from the pit,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion;
5 Who satisfies your years with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.
6 The LORD performs righteous deeds
And judgments for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the sons of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,
So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.
14 For He Himself knows our frame;
He is mindful that we are but dust.

Lamentations 3
21 This I recall to my mind,
Therefore I have hope.
22 The LORD’S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Thy faithfulness.
 
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St_Worm2

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The problem is certain verses such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 along with 2 Peter 2:20-22. You may argue that they are somehow not genuine believers but yet they are according to the descriptions provided by those scriptures.
The Hebrews passages admittedly pose a bit of problem for both sides, but the passage from 2 Peter 2 :scratch: The entire chapter talks/is a warning to us about false teachers and false prophets. Don't take v20-22 out of context.

It's too late tonight, but if you'd like, we can take the Hebrews passages up again shortly and take a closer look at them.

--David
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I hope the following verses help you to understand clearly what the Bible says about the second death, which is the lake of fire."

And...you ignored them all.
And look who is in the Kingdom but outside the city

Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Have you ever considered the full context that connects the 2 verses.

In v.14 we have "may enter IN through the gates INTO the city
Immediately following in v.15 we have "for without" or some translations have "outside".

So, I'd like to ask you this; do you see any connection between entering IN through gates INTO the city, which is ON the new earth, and "outside" or "without"?

Or maybe this question might be helpful. "Outside" what? Or "without" what".
 
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FreeGrace2

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The problem is certain verses such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 along with 2 Peter 2:20-22. You may argue that they are somehow not genuine believers but yet they are according to the descriptions provided by those scriptures.
They are saved believers. The real problem is the wild misunderstanding of what these passages actually say. None of them clearly state anything about losing salvation.

God seems to have a standard of, "One bounce is permitted only."
Other than from your imagination, where in Scripture would you get this idea?

Especially in the NT. It sounds like God is almost harsh with people because they know the truth and thus if they disobey they are all the more condemned.
Are you not familiar with this verse:
Rom 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

If you try to argue that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit (per Eph 1:13,14) can become Unsealed, I'm more than happy to squelch that notion. To be brief, the word "guarantee" is found in Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, all related to our sealing.

I went back to my vomit and scripture seems to indicate that it is unforgivable and that I will never be able to truly and genuinely repent again, at least not unto salvation.
No, the 2 Pet passage doesn't refer to "end of time", or existence in eternity.

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

The red words in v.20 contrast a believer BEFORE they "are again entangled and overcome from the corruption of the world" with AFTER they have done so.

It's not even about how they end up in eternity.

The believer who gets entangled in the corruption of the world ends up in more corruption generally than they were involved in before they got saved.

v.21 is about God's discipline towards such a believer during their life. iow, the believer who has escaped the corruption of the world is under God's blessings. But if that believer returns to the corruption of the world, like a pig returning to the mud or a dog eating its own vomit (yuck to either one), they not only lose God's blessings, but will be under God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), which will be worse than their life before they got saved.

Every claim that salvation can be lose is a claim that Jesus lied in John 10:28.

Stop it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Grace is grace. However there is no cheap grace or hyper-grace.
Thanks for missing my point. You still do not understand anything about God's grace.

You can spell the word but you cannot grasp its meaning.

I never said there is cheap grace or hyper-grace.

But the Bible speaks of "more or greater grace". Maybe that's what you think of when you use the perjorative word "hyper-grace".

James 4:6 - But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” NIV

But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." NASB

Did the father give hyper-grace to the prodigal son?
 
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Invalidusername

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They are saved believers. The real problem is the wild misunderstanding of what these passages actually say. None of them clearly state anything about losing salvation.


Other than from your imagination, where in Scripture would you get this idea?


Are you not familiar with this verse:
Rom 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

If you try to argue that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit (per Eph 1:13,14) can become Unsealed, I'm more than happy to squelch that notion. To be brief, the word "guarantee" is found in Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, all related to our sealing.


No, the 2 Pet passage doesn't refer to "end of time", or existence in eternity.

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

The red words in v.20 contrast a believer BEFORE they "are again entangled and overcome from the corruption of the world" with AFTER they have done so.

It's not even about how they end up in eternity.

The believer who gets entangled in the corruption of the world ends up in more corruption generally than they were involved in before they got saved.

v.21 is about God's discipline towards such a believer during their life. iow, the believer who has escaped the corruption of the world is under God's blessings. But if that believer returns to the corruption of the world, like a pig returning to the mud or a dog eating its own vomit (yuck to either one), they not only lose God's blessings, but will be under God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), which will be worse than their life before they got saved.

Every claim that salvation can be lose is a claim that Jesus lied in John 10:28.

Stop it.

Hebrews 10:26-31 says, "How much sorer is the punishment". Do you really think that people going to heaven will have a sorer punishment than people going to hell?
 
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Invalidusername

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The Hebrews passages admittedly pose a bit of problem for both sides, but the passage from 2 Peter 2 :scratch: The entire chapter talks/is a warning to us about false teachers and false prophets. Don't take v20-22 out of context.

It's too late tonight, but if you'd like, we can take the Hebrews passages up again shortly and take a closer look at them.

--David

I've read all of the 20+ theories of the Hebrews passages and I have only found the most literal interpretation of it to actually make sense.

Basically if you are saved and then you lose it, Jesus would have to come again and die for you a 2nd time in order for you to be saved again. That is why "no sacrifice remains" and "re-crucified Christ to themselves afresh again".

Now the only question remains is, how do you know who has committed this? Will it be someone who truly wants to repent but it is too late? Hebrews 12 seems to imply this with Esau weeping and seeking for repentance(and yes Esau is seeking repentance as the verses imply, not just the blessing). But yet Jesus seems to imply that it is never too late to approach to Him... BUT He implies that there is a sin that will NEVER be forgiven. Jesus does not say that this sin will never be repented of or confessed but that it will NEVER be forgiven even if it is confessed or repented of. Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 seems to be describing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or especially with the passage that says "insulting/offending the Spirit of grace".
 
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