The Barbarian
Crabby Old White Guy
- Apr 3, 2003
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Barbarian observes:
No. For the Catholic Church, it's an open question, which each believer can decide for himself. One may be an YE creationist, and remain a perfectly orthodox Roman Catholic. The only caveat the church offers is that one may not hold that all of this was not the creation of God, however He might have done it.
Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XIV, was expressing his opinion as to evolution of all life being "virtually certain", but that is not doctrine. Even if he had expressed that after becoming pope, it would not have been doctrine. That has to be given ex cathedra, to be so.
The Church, like most denominations, doesn't consider evolution to be a religious question. So Catholics are free to believe what they will about it, as far as the Church is concerned. If a pope expresses an opinion, it's just his opinion, unless he does so ex cathedra, or cites existing doctrine.
I know some Catholics who are YE creationists. It's just not a religious issue.
The Church acknowledges that there were two original ancestors and that their disobedience separated us from God.
I don't think many lay people of any denomination know much about evolution.
For Catholics, there's a unity of body and soul, which is a mystery. Not something science can investigate. The mechanics of consciousness, like the mechanics of the rest of the universe, are not sufficient to explain it all. That's what's out of reach of science.
Science is limited, anyway. Sometimes, when I'm alone and out in nature somewhere, there's a moment when I apprehend all of this and His role in it, and that's what an epiphany is. But science can't go there, even if scientists can.
I expect that He created all this so that everything works by consistent rules that He uses to make it all work. But whether He designed everything or merely arranged it so contingency would fulfill His intent, I do not know.
Barbarian, earlier:
No. Evolutionary theory makes no such claims. Can't. Science can't even comment on the supernatural. And apes and zebras and so on, also attribute agency to things. Yet they seem to have no concept of God.
I don't see that in evolutionary theory. Even Richard Dawkins concludes that we can't say with certainty that there is no god.
If there is, that's no sign that there is no God. It is entirely consistent with us being created so that we would seek Him.
No. For the Catholic Church, it's an open question, which each believer can decide for himself. One may be an YE creationist, and remain a perfectly orthodox Roman Catholic. The only caveat the church offers is that one may not hold that all of this was not the creation of God, however He might have done it.
Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XIV, was expressing his opinion as to evolution of all life being "virtually certain", but that is not doctrine. Even if he had expressed that after becoming pope, it would not have been doctrine. That has to be given ex cathedra, to be so.
That's interesting as when I debate people some use the Catholic Church as an example of support for evolution giving the impression that if you are Catholic then you support evolution.
The Church, like most denominations, doesn't consider evolution to be a religious question. So Catholics are free to believe what they will about it, as far as the Church is concerned. If a pope expresses an opinion, it's just his opinion, unless he does so ex cathedra, or cites existing doctrine.
Whereas in reality there may be a mixture of beliefs including some who reject evolution or support God-guided evolution or a number of other mixtures of views.
I know some Catholics who are YE creationists. It's just not a religious issue.
It is interesting that they do not go into the emergence of Adam and Eve and how this fits in with how sin and death entered into humanity.
The Church acknowledges that there were two original ancestors and that their disobedience separated us from God.
I appreciate that this is the Church's position but I was referring to individual lay people. The above statement gives a broad explanation but lacks detail and I would say most would not understand evolution enough that they feel confident that it is correct so therefore will be trusting what others say like the church for their position.
I don't think many lay people of any denomination know much about evolution.
Yes and this is what some say about consciousness that it is something beyond the physical brain just as some say the soul is something beyond the physical body.
For Catholics, there's a unity of body and soul, which is a mystery. Not something science can investigate. The mechanics of consciousness, like the mechanics of the rest of the universe, are not sufficient to explain it all. That's what's out of reach of science.
So I guess there is a limit to where science can occupy in religious thought and belief.
Science is limited, anyway. Sometimes, when I'm alone and out in nature somewhere, there's a moment when I apprehend all of this and His role in it, and that's what an epiphany is. But science can't go there, even if scientists can.
Though some want to try and find ways in how divine concepts can be related to natural phenomenon through science. I find this interesting but at the end of the day, there are limits to what science can know about religious thought and belief. Science asks how and religion asks why.
I expect that He created all this so that everything works by consistent rules that He uses to make it all work. But whether He designed everything or merely arranged it so contingency would fulfill His intent, I do not know.
I've always thought this was about how we can see Gods creative ability in his creation. Though we tend to think of it as nature and many attributes everything to mother nature we can see that there is some agent behind things that have ability beyond what we can comprehend.
Barbarian, earlier:
No. Evolutionary theory makes no such claims. Can't. Science can't even comment on the supernatural. And apes and zebras and so on, also attribute agency to things. Yet they seem to have no concept of God.
Yes that is what I mean, according to evolution just like the animals we attribute agency to things and this accounts for why we have religious belief and not the fact that there is any God to believe in.
I don't see that in evolutionary theory. Even Richard Dawkins concludes that we can't say with certainty that there is no god.
They attempt to give a naturalistic explanation as to why people believe in God.
If there is, that's no sign that there is no God. It is entirely consistent with us being created so that we would seek Him.
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