ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

BCsenior

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You believe John 3:16? So do I. Problem is you neglect Hebrews 5:9. Both believing and obeying are requisite for eternal life.
Who has the first clue what "believe" really means?
To understand what it does mean ...
one must take into account the whole of the NT.
That way ... there will be NO misunderstanding!

All of what truly "believing" unto eternal life
really entails cannot possibly be contained
in one word (in any language)!

This is one obvious proof of the value of paraphrasing
(for those who are not Greek scholars with lexicons.

All of the various John 16s in the NT
are simply nets to catch the little fishes.
 
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Oldmantook

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Except Heb 5:9 doesn't link obeying with gaining salvation in any way. But since you think so, please explain exactly how the words of the verse would lead anyone to such a conclusion.

"and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

Why would anyone even suggest that obeying here would be anything other than simply obeying His command to believe on Him?

There are many, many verses that directly faith/believing with salvation and eternal life.

How many other verses specifically claim that one's lifestyle of obedience is required for salvation? I'll go ahead and answer that easy question: none at all.

Context matters, as does discernment. Your view shows no discernment.

While believers are commanded to do good works, and even told we were created FOR good works, per Eph 2:10, v.9 also tells us that works have no place in getting saved.
The Greek word for OBEY in this verse is not in the aorist tense. The Greek word is hypakouousin which is a present tense participle translated as OBEYING. One must continue obeying in order to have eternal life. If this verse were referring to a one-time moment of obedience as when one first trusted in Jesus for salvation the verb would have been rendered in the aorist tense which describes punctiliar action. It is not in the aorist tense so your view is totally contradicted by the text itself. Your view shows no understanding or discernment.
 
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Oldmantook

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When God's Word isn't read collectively and frequently, this is what we see kids. The Apostle Paul is possibly the most anointed man in God's Word, having been used by God to write over ---70%--- of the New Testament and God inspired Paul to write of his very personal -fight- with his "sun nature" in Romans 7 :14. READ IT! We who truly believe and have God's Word put ALL our Faith in Christ Jesus ' righteousness, not our own while avoiding our fithiness. Remember what God tells us in the Book of Genesis before the New covenant? "Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness". Instilling fear is despicable. Instilling Love and Grace through Faith is Christ is truth... God bless you...
It's convenient for you to ignore Heb 5:9 isn't it?
 
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Oldmantook

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Who has the first clue what "believe" really means?
To understand what it does mean ...
one must take into account the whole of the NT.
That way ... there will be NO misunderstanding!

All of what truly "believing" unto eternal life
really entails cannot possibly be contained
in one word (in any language)!

This is one obvious proof of the value of paraphrasing
(for those who are not Greek scholars with lexicons.

All of the various John 16s in the NT
are simply nets to catch the little fishes.
Belief only amounts to a truncated gospel message. Both believing and obeying are requisite as to believe - is to obey. One outwardly demonstrates ones inner belief by one's obedience. Two sides of the same coin. That is why Jn 3:36 states:
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
 
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BCsenior

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Both believing and obeying are requisite as to believe - is to obey.
One outwardly demonstrates ones inner belief by one's obedience.
Two sides of the same coin.
That is why Jn 3:36 states:
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Not saying you are wrong, but ...
The Holman Bible states that
belief and repentance
are 2 sides of the same coin!
I can quote the whole thing, if you'd like.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The Greek word for OBEY in this verse is not in the aorist tense. The Greek word is hypakouousin which is a present tense participle translated as OBEYING. One must continue obeying in order to have eternal life.
Full stop right here. First, since the word is a participle, it isn't even a verb. There is NO action here. Only a verbal adjective. The NT is full of such participles. They are best translated as 'the obeying ones". So the emphasis is on the noun, a person who believes.

From Wm Mounce's text, "Greek for the Rest of Us", on page 179, he wrote, "A participle does not necessarily indicate when an action occurs..." A bit later on, in parentheses, he wrote: "The terms 'present', 'aorist', and 'perfect' do not refer to the meaning but to the form of the participle. The present participle is built ont he present tense stem of the verb, but it does not necessarily denote an event occurring in the present time."

On page 184, he wrote, "The participle built on the present tense stem indicates an action occurring at the same time as the main verb." On the same page he wrote, "But if the main verb is past time, then the present participle also indicates an action occurring in the past time."

One more thing about the "present tense" in the Greek. It NEVER means continuous action out into the future, as you have suggested. It only means an action that is happening in the present time, such as "right now" or "currently". Not an action that must keep on occurring in order for the result to continue. That is false.

So, when you figure out the tense of the main verb in Heb 5:9, please explain how that affects your present participle.

If this verse were referring to a one-time moment of obedience as when one first trusted in Jesus for salvation the verb would have been rendered in the aorist tense which describes punctiliar action. It is not in the aorist tense so your view is totally contradicted by the text itself. Your view shows no understanding or discernment.
Rather, your failure to address the rest of my post shows a total lack of understanding on your part. You basically dodged proving your point.
 
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Arthur B Via

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Thanks for the lesson on singulars and plurals.

Of course, the red is the absolute MUST place to START.

This is the net (similar to John 3:26, etc.)
that catches the little fishes!

If a little fish believes to the Father's satisfaction,
he receives the Holy Spirit and is born again!

Now, the most precious Holy Spirit can begin to
teach this little fish (who is now slurping milk) about
deeper spiritual Truths, which are absolutely necessary
for survival
... so he can swim deeper ... and make
it to heaven instead of hell (which is not to say
that heaven is below and hell is above).

Gradually, this little fish grows into a bigger fish
(and all the fishermen in the area are happy indeed).
P.S. I like to fish.
Always thought the Apostle Paul would make it to Heaven, but he said he was "sold as a slave to sin" in Romans 7:14. Bummer Mr wizard...
 
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Kenny'sID

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Most common error today is that our precious Jesus said these things --- before --- He paid the full price for ALL our filthy ways. Read what He tells us ---after--- the resurrection and understand...

Sheer denial.

I put it right there in front of you, yet you completely ignored the term "all". In reality that's all you need is that one scripture with the term "all" in it, end of story, but I'll go on just the same.

So, wait till the man (Christ) dies and is unable to counter any lies told about his teachings? Very low thing for people to do to any man when they aren't here to defend themselves. How convenient for all that claim that.

If that were the case, why did he even bother to teach all he did about sin? I'm sure you'll come up with something but it's not biblical. Funny he never made any mention about, after he dies, that will do away with his teachings, at least the ones that we want to pick and choose because we like doing them.

So how about all the other teachers in the bible that speak against habitual, unrepentant sin? Does one now have the convenience to say, "Oh, they aren't Christ, so what they say doesn't really matter."?

If I may be so bold, these are evil teachings that WILL cost people their eternity in Heaven. The very first paragraph of this post alone, proved it beyond doubt, to be just that...evil. It's a theology built on some of the worse type of selfishness in the world. Not only does it allow people, in their minds to do whatever they like now, and still get to heaven, but what's worse, that selfishness causes them to care so little for their fellow man that they don't think twice about teaching it to sincerely seeking, all as a means to help "themselves" reinforce the belief (the more that believe it, the more it appears true)

Seems people have no problem changing the meaning of the bible these days...I'd be terrified to teach such nonsense.
 
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Der Alte

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<KI>Sheer denial.
I put it right there in front of you, yet you completely ignored the term "all". In reality that's all you need is that one scripture with the term "all" in it, end of story, but I'll go on just the same.
So, wait till the man (Christ) dies and is unable to counter any lies told about his teachings? Very low thing for people to do to any man when they aren't here to defend themselves. How convenient for all that claim that.
If that were the case, why did he even bother to teach all he did about sin? I'm sure you'll come up with something but it's not biblical. Funny he never made any mention about, after he dies, that will do away with his teachings, at least the ones that we want to pick and choose because we like doing them.
So how about all the other teachers in the bible that speak against habitual, unrepentant sin? Does one now have the convenience to say, "Oh, they aren't Christ, so what they say doesn't really matter."?
If I may be so bold, these are evil teachings that WILL cost people their eternity in Heaven. The very first paragraph of this post alone, proved it beyond doubt, to be just that...evil. It's a theology built on some of the worse type of selfishness in the world. Not only does it allow people, in their minds to do whatever they like now, and still get to heaven, but what's worse, that selfishness causes them to care so little for their fellow man that they don't think twice about teaching it to sincerely seeking, all as a means to help "themselves" reinforce the belief (the more that believe it, the more it appears true)
Seems people have no problem changing the meaning of the bible these days...I'd be terrified to teach such nonsense.<KI>
Lots of folks around who think that having a Strong's Concordance makes them a Hebrew and Greek expert despite its having about 15,000 errors and omissions.
 
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ladodgers6

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By “habitual sinner” I mean a person who repeatedly
sinswithout repentance. This means everyone
(BACs included) … because everyone can choose to sin. Repentance means to hate your sin, run from it, and don’t do it anymore. If one does slip up and sins again, he/she can repent again as in 1 John 1:9. This is repeated until he/she has overcome the sin,
i.e. gained victory over it.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves,
nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God.”
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NKJV)

Please note: the BAC has become unrighteous,
if he/she chooses to live in a lifestyle of habitual sinning.

All habitual sinners will not inherit
the Kingdom of God

“When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before,
that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, NLT)
“those who practice such things will not inherit
the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21, NKJV)


All habitual sinners will not inherit the Kingdom
of Christ but instead they will experience
the anger/wrath of God

“Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes — these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” (Ephesians 5:3-6, NLT)
“Let no one deceive you with empty words,
for because of these things the wrath of God
comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
(Ephesians 5:6, NKJV)


All habitual sinners will experience
the anger/wrath of God

“So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.” (Colossians 3:5-6, NLT)
“Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience”
(Colossians 3:6, NKJV)


All habitual sinners will go into the lake of fire
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. BUT the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8, NKJV)
May I warn you with all sincerity that “the cowardly” includes those BACs in the world (even now) who fall away from the faith during persecution of Christians.
And “the cowardly” will include those BACs who submit to taking the mark of the beast, which is submitting to the ownership of the antichrist, i.e. Satan.

All habitual sinners will not have the right to the tree of life, and will not be allowed into the city of the New Jerusalem
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters,
and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
(Revelation 22:14-15, NKJV)


BACs = born-again Christians

Question? Do Christians still possess sin? Do Christians still struggle with sin? Are Christians saved by Christ Alone as their sole cause and ground of Salvation. Or is 'OUR' repentance the sole cause and ground of our Salvation. Just curious.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Are Christians saved by Christ Alone as their sole cause and ground of Salvation.

We are saved by Christ, and that means fulfilling his expectations of us, so yes in the realistic sense, we are saved by Christ alone. But that's only if we are realistic with what it means to believe in Christ, or with what "Christ alone" truly entails.

Your presented "Christ alone" thing is your attempt to indicate/teach, Christ has no expectations, it's just him "alone", without his thoughts, or a shell to simply "claim" we have faith in. See, sounds weird once it's taken apart, but that's the trick you are trying to pull on these people. In truth, what Christ expects of us/thinks, is an actual part of Christ, or "Christ alone".

Your turn now:

Do you think we are saved by Christ alone, while you don't actually include his thoughts and expectations of us in your perception of Christ, or "Christ alone"?
 
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ladodgers6

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We are saved by Christ, and that means fulfilling his expectations of us, so yes in the realistic sense, we are saved by Christ alone. But that's only if we are realistic with what it means to believe in Christ, or with what "Christ alone" truly entails.

Your presented "Christ alone" thing is your attempt to indicate/teach, Christ has no expectations, it's just him "alone", without his thoughts, or a shell to simply "claim" we have faith in. See, sounds weird once it's taken apart, but that's the trick you are trying to pull on these people. In truth, what Christ expects of us/thinks, is an actual part of Christ, or "Christ alone".

Your turn now:

Do you think we are saved by Christ alone, while you don't actually include his thoughts and expectations of us in your perception of Christ, or "Christ alone"?

Wow, you accuse me falsely, sir. It's always perplexed me how Christian believers are quick to cut people down, insult, or hurl bad names. But its okay, I forgive you. Are we discussing God's word, are we not?

So I have a request? Please explain this passages for us.

Romans 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

I hope you address them directly, and do not avoid them.

Thanks
 
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Kenny'sID

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Wow, you accuse me falsely, sir. It's always perplexed me how Christian believers are quick to cut people down, insult, or hurl bad names. But its okay, I forgive you. Are we discussing God's word, are we not?

So I have a request? Please explain this passages for us.

Romans 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

I hope you address them directly, and do not avoid them.

Thanks

Did you address what I brought forth "directly" or did you completely avoid my questions/comments accept to say I was wrong while giving no reason?

You first.
 
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ladodgers6

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Did you address what I brought forth "directly" or did you completely avoid my questions/comments accept to say I was wrong while giving no reason?

You first.

Wow, another so-called Christian preaching about being holy. Never mind!!! You made my point!!!
 
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ladodgers6

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Did you address what I brought forth "directly" or did you completely avoid my questions/comments accept to say I was wrong while giving no reason?

You first.
Oh, please point out where I said your wrong and gave no reason for it?
 
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BCsenior

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Question? Do Christians still possess sin? Do Christians still struggle with sin? Are Christians saved by Christ Alone as their sole cause and ground of Salvation. Or is 'OUR' repentance the sole cause and ground of our Salvation. Just curious.
Okay, good question! ... I'll go with da blue!
BUT, we are called to co-operate with what Jesus said,
and with what the precious Holy Spirit is trying to do!
One thing is to get us to REPENT of our sins!

Paul wrote several times that BACs were
"chosen and called to be holy".
BACs can be sanctified unto holiness over time!
If they co-operate with their free will.

John 14 ...
BACs who love Jesus WILL obey His commandments.
Who gets to heaven who doesn't love Jesus?
Ergo, who gets to heaven who doesn't obey
His commandments?

John 15 ...
BACs who are Jesus' friends WILL obey His commandments.
Who gets to heaven who is not Jesus' friend?
Ergo, who gets to heaven who doesn't obey
His commandments?
 
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BCsenior

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Please explain this passages for us.
Romans 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
We are justified by faith apart from trusting
(working) in perfect obedience to the OT Law!

For example, Jewish BACs in Galatians 5 were trying
to include working (obeying) one of the OT laws!
Because of this ...
Paul said they had become estranged from Christ,
and had fallen from grace!
 
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Kenny'sID

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Oh, please point out where I said your wrong and gave no reason for it?

Here ya' go:

Wow, you accuse me falsely, sir.

What did I falsify accuse you of? In any debate, we need to address ours as well as the opposing parties post, you have done neither.

Wow, another so-called Christian preaching about being holy. Never mind!!! You made my point!!!

And now you accuse me of not being Christian with no reason why instead of addressing either of my posts?

What point was it that I made?
 
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