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Only all of the NT verses which warn us thatI'm not dodging anything.
one's salvation can be lost. No biggie, carry on!
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Only all of the NT verses which warn us thatI'm not dodging anything.
Yes, this is critical to see that God chooses!
Often, Paul says God chose and called (BACs)
---------------- to be holy!
So, if they don't co-operate, then what?
Oh, yes, God forces them to co-operate ...
they MUST be sanctified unto holiness!
They are slaves (or robots), aren't they?
Butski, Paul also says BACs must CHOOSE
to be slaves of sin ...or... slaves of obedience
(Romans 6:16) ... Is my signature invisible?
Wow. A 5 line sentence!I'm sorry, i hadn't read any of your posts. I was replying to someone else about having to consider the fate of those that are not forgiven, either now or ever; and not to consider only those that may bring damnation upon themselves through the unpardonable sin, but also those that don't, and won't, ever even recognize their being dead in sin, and so never feel the need of, ask for, or receive, the grace of Christ's atonement and God's forgiveness.
I never said it doesn't. But the Bible calls it the second DEATH for unbelievers. They aren't living. They are in torment forever.The only way to reconcile eternal anything, is to realize personal existence continues forever.
That was my point.And that existence is either in communion with, or separated from, the Being in which that continued existence occurs.
Weren't you able to determine any point from what had been elaborated on?But go ahead, what was the point you had been elaborating on?
That's nothing, try reading The Confidence Man, by Herman Melville. I recall an entire paragraph of at least 20 lines being a single sentence.Wow. A 5 line sentence!
I'm sorry, but had you not caught the part where I said, "sorry, I hadn't read any of your posts"?Weren't you able to determine any point from what had been elaborated on?
I hope the following verses help you to understand clearly what the Bible says about the second death, which is the lake of fire.If you read Rev. you will notice there are those within the city with God and those outside, some further away than others. This is the separation. The Lake of Fire is finite , not infinite to those of the second death. It is why death and the grave went there not being need any more, purpose finished. Man is not an eternal being to live forever there like the angels within. And those of the second death never received their reward of eternal life. They were just resurrected to judgement like those of the Kingdom.
Do you understand what the word means? It means to "no longer believe what was once believed". Or, to cease to believe something that you used to believe.So apostates go to heaven? Absolutely ridiculous.
I've addressed every verse you have posted which you claim that believers are warned of losing salvation. And I've pointed out that NONE of them warn of that.Only all of the NT verses which warn us that one's salvation can be lost. No biggie, carry on!
Sorry. When you mentioned a point I had elaborated on, I assumed (my bad) that you had read at least that part.That's nothing, try reading The Confidence Man, by Herman Melville. I recall an entire paragraph of at least 20 lines being a single sentence.
I'm sorry, but had you not caught the part where I said, "sorry, I hadn't read any of your posts"?
Why would He not be? After all, patience and kindness are perhaps the two principle ingredients in love, and "God is agape", yes, especially in regard to His children (whether they are saints or saints "to be" ).I agree. I only hope that God is long suffering and patient with BACs just as He is with the unregenerate.
It's called grace, which those who claim that salvation can be lost do not understand.I agree. I only hope that God is long suffering and patient with BACs just as He is with the unregenerate.
I hope the following verses help you to understand clearly what the Bible says about the second death, which is the lake of fire.
Why would He not be? After all, patience and kindness are perhaps the two principle ingredients in love, and "God is agape", yes, especially in regard to His children (whether they are saints or saints "to be" ).
At the end of one of his evening devotionals, Spurgeon said this: "Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night" .. Morning and Evening, Evening, February 27th (see Jeremiah 31:3 ). His meaning is this, those of us who are His children can and should always rest assured of God's great love for us, because He has 'always' loved us .. from everlasting .. and He always will (see too Psalm 139).
God is for us! (for those of us who will be His, and for those of us who are His already)
--David
p.s. - He has proven how great His love is as well, has He not .. e.g. John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21 even for those who are just like you and me .. e.g. Mark 2:17; Romans 4:5.
Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
It's called grace, which those who claim that salvation can be lost do not understand.
Why would you kind of insinuate that God might not be so "long suffering and patient" with BACs just as he is with the unregenerate??
It is clear to me that Arminians aren't so long suffering and patient with BACs for fail in their Christian lives.
Even those believers who are like the 4th soil in the parable and bear much fruit STILL don't earn heaven. It's STILL by grace, all the way.
But then, you STILL don't understand that, by your comments above.
Do you really believe that God has a different standard for Himself, a lower standard in this case than He has for all of us?God seems to have a standard of, "One bounce is permitted only." Especially in the NT. It sounds like God is almost harsh with people because they know the truth and thus if they disobey they are all the more condemned. I went back to my vomit and scripture seems to indicate that it is unforgivable and that I will never be able to truly and genuinely repent again, at least not unto salvation.
The Hebrews passages admittedly pose a bit of problem for both sides, but the passage from 2 Peter 2 The entire chapter talks/is a warning to us about false teachers and false prophets. Don't take v20-22 out of context.The problem is certain verses such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 along with 2 Peter 2:20-22. You may argue that they are somehow not genuine believers but yet they are according to the descriptions provided by those scriptures.
Have you ever considered the full context that connects the 2 verses.And look who is in the Kingdom but outside the city
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
They are saved believers. The real problem is the wild misunderstanding of what these passages actually say. None of them clearly state anything about losing salvation.The problem is certain verses such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 along with 2 Peter 2:20-22. You may argue that they are somehow not genuine believers but yet they are according to the descriptions provided by those scriptures.
Other than from your imagination, where in Scripture would you get this idea?God seems to have a standard of, "One bounce is permitted only."
Are you not familiar with this verse:Especially in the NT. It sounds like God is almost harsh with people because they know the truth and thus if they disobey they are all the more condemned.
No, the 2 Pet passage doesn't refer to "end of time", or existence in eternity.I went back to my vomit and scripture seems to indicate that it is unforgivable and that I will never be able to truly and genuinely repent again, at least not unto salvation.
Thanks for missing my point. You still do not understand anything about God's grace.Grace is grace. However there is no cheap grace or hyper-grace.
They are saved believers. The real problem is the wild misunderstanding of what these passages actually say. None of them clearly state anything about losing salvation.
Other than from your imagination, where in Scripture would you get this idea?
Are you not familiar with this verse:
Rom 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
If you try to argue that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit (per Eph 1:13,14) can become Unsealed, I'm more than happy to squelch that notion. To be brief, the word "guarantee" is found in Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, all related to our sealing.
No, the 2 Pet passage doesn't refer to "end of time", or existence in eternity.
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
The red words in v.20 contrast a believer BEFORE they "are again entangled and overcome from the corruption of the world" with AFTER they have done so.
It's not even about how they end up in eternity.
The believer who gets entangled in the corruption of the world ends up in more corruption generally than they were involved in before they got saved.
v.21 is about God's discipline towards such a believer during their life. iow, the believer who has escaped the corruption of the world is under God's blessings. But if that believer returns to the corruption of the world, like a pig returning to the mud or a dog eating its own vomit (yuck to either one), they not only lose God's blessings, but will be under God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), which will be worse than their life before they got saved.
Every claim that salvation can be lose is a claim that Jesus lied in John 10:28.
Stop it.
The Hebrews passages admittedly pose a bit of problem for both sides, but the passage from 2 Peter 2 The entire chapter talks/is a warning to us about false teachers and false prophets. Don't take v20-22 out of context.
It's too late tonight, but if you'd like, we can take the Hebrews passages up again shortly and take a closer look at them.
--David